F
fix
Guest
Well, if by holy you mean keeping the commandments then any of us who practice certain illicit acts are not holy.
This all goes back to my original question. Why do you believe the bible?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
T
Truthwarrior
Guest
Earlier on in this discussion I saw the old chestnut, “Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality”
The fact that Jesus didn’t specifically mention homosexuality is irrelivant, a total red herring. Jesus said nothing about the Trinity, but all Christians believe in it.
Many of the beliefs of Christianity are to be found explicitly in Scripture. But some beliefs were implied. Jesus says as much when in John 16: 12 He says,
“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth. “
The most likly reason Jesus didn’t specifically condemn homosexulality was that He didn’t have to. The Jews would have been well aware of the condemation of homosexuality in the Old Testiment. They didn’t need reminding that it was immoral. Once a moral priciple has been established there is no need to constantly state it or give examples of its application. The immorality of homosexual acts was a well established fact by Jesus’ time.
I find the idea, implied in the comment that Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality, that Christ approved or tolarated homosexuality very repugnant.
The fact that Jesus didn’t specifically mention homosexuality is irrelivant, a total red herring. Jesus said nothing about the Trinity, but all Christians believe in it.
Many of the beliefs of Christianity are to be found explicitly in Scripture. But some beliefs were implied. Jesus says as much when in John 16: 12 He says,
“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth. “
The most likly reason Jesus didn’t specifically condemn homosexulality was that He didn’t have to. The Jews would have been well aware of the condemation of homosexuality in the Old Testiment. They didn’t need reminding that it was immoral. Once a moral priciple has been established there is no need to constantly state it or give examples of its application. The immorality of homosexual acts was a well established fact by Jesus’ time.
I find the idea, implied in the comment that Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality, that Christ approved or tolarated homosexuality very repugnant.
P
Publisher
Guest
As a member fo the Society of Friends, we have struggeled among ourselves exactly where do gay men and lesbian women fit into our religious life as a Meeting.
We believe in the worth of persons. We do not negate the stories of gay men and lesbian women when making these value judgements.
We do no assume gay people are lying when they say they love one another…especially when we have Friends that happen to be gay who have been together for 20-30 + years. The lives they live and kindness they exhibit and the integrity by which they conduct their lives speaks for itself. We do not claim to be able to read their hearts and make the love they obviously have for one another into “lust” simply because the love they share doesn’t conform to our middle-class American ideas, nor do we accept what others say about them because of a preconceived religious agenda…we trust that these gay men and lesbian women, who for the most part are educated and articulate can speak for themselves as to how they feel about their partner. We trust them as brothers and sisters to us and do not impose our lack of understanding and ignorance in the scope of human sexuality upon them
Friends were among the first religious group to accept gay and lesbian people into our Meetings as equals, even taking their requests to put their relationship “under the care of the Meeting” and commit to one another “after the manner of Friends” in marriage…whether the state recongnizes those relationships or not has liitle impact for us…the Meeting does accept them and blesses their union. All “marriages” of gay and straight go through a “clearness committee” and if approved a Meeting for Worship for Marriage will be scheduled.
We do not pull stories from scripture that on the surface appear to condemn gay people out of hand from a culture so removed from ours we would find lfe in that culture very difficult for ourselves so we will not impose 4000 year old biases, prejudices and beliefs that has their roots in the primitive world view of a primitive desert nomadic culture.
We do not believe that the writers of scripture were psychologists, scientists, sociologists and human behaviorists. We do not accept their cosmology of a earth-centric universe or a three tiered view or heaven and earth. We do not accept that women are property and that slavery is acceptable. We believe the Light Within guides humanity to further light in matters of human equality.
If we are wrong, we choose to err on the side of love and mercy than on the side of condemnation and judgement. We are content in our way, we believe we are led by the Light of Christ, and if one day, for whatever reason, we fall under the judgement of an angry God, so be it, it is our firm conviction that we have walked in the Light and put ourselves in God’s hands.
We will work to support our gay and lesbian Friends for full equality under the law…in short we embrace the “gay agenda” (whatever that is) of conservative, fundamentalist double speak.
We believe in the worth of persons. We do not negate the stories of gay men and lesbian women when making these value judgements.
We do no assume gay people are lying when they say they love one another…especially when we have Friends that happen to be gay who have been together for 20-30 + years. The lives they live and kindness they exhibit and the integrity by which they conduct their lives speaks for itself. We do not claim to be able to read their hearts and make the love they obviously have for one another into “lust” simply because the love they share doesn’t conform to our middle-class American ideas, nor do we accept what others say about them because of a preconceived religious agenda…we trust that these gay men and lesbian women, who for the most part are educated and articulate can speak for themselves as to how they feel about their partner. We trust them as brothers and sisters to us and do not impose our lack of understanding and ignorance in the scope of human sexuality upon them
Friends were among the first religious group to accept gay and lesbian people into our Meetings as equals, even taking their requests to put their relationship “under the care of the Meeting” and commit to one another “after the manner of Friends” in marriage…whether the state recongnizes those relationships or not has liitle impact for us…the Meeting does accept them and blesses their union. All “marriages” of gay and straight go through a “clearness committee” and if approved a Meeting for Worship for Marriage will be scheduled.
We do not pull stories from scripture that on the surface appear to condemn gay people out of hand from a culture so removed from ours we would find lfe in that culture very difficult for ourselves so we will not impose 4000 year old biases, prejudices and beliefs that has their roots in the primitive world view of a primitive desert nomadic culture.
We do not believe that the writers of scripture were psychologists, scientists, sociologists and human behaviorists. We do not accept their cosmology of a earth-centric universe or a three tiered view or heaven and earth. We do not accept that women are property and that slavery is acceptable. We believe the Light Within guides humanity to further light in matters of human equality.
If we are wrong, we choose to err on the side of love and mercy than on the side of condemnation and judgement. We are content in our way, we believe we are led by the Light of Christ, and if one day, for whatever reason, we fall under the judgement of an angry God, so be it, it is our firm conviction that we have walked in the Light and put ourselves in God’s hands.
We will work to support our gay and lesbian Friends for full equality under the law…in short we embrace the “gay agenda” (whatever that is) of conservative, fundamentalist double speak.
B
buffalo
Guest
First off some definitions are in order -fix
By good gays I mean Christian gays who practice Christianity and who are as holy as any other Christian.
For those wishing to classify homosexuality as a sin I would like to say it is not listed as above and beyond or being greater than other sins listed in the Old T. It is not listed as being one of the Ten Commandments. The Old T. says to stone adulterers to death. Why don’t we do that today ? Why do we single out some scriptures as being valid and not others? The Old T. also says we shouldn’t wear clothing of mixed fabrics. Why don’t we practice this?
We don’t beat up on liars, cheaters, adulterers etc. and chain them to a fence leaving them there to die like a recent case in the U.S.A. where a gay person was killed. When are we going to stop beating up on gays and killing them? When are we going to stop saying its O.K. to treat gays like lepers? Jesus went toward the lepers. How do you know he doesn’t go towards our gay brothers and sisters? The least shall be first…the first shall be last…
Homosexuality the disorder
The “Gay” lifestyle the sin.
God calls us all to be chaste. If a spouse cheats it is clear it is adultery and a sin. The key is that we acknowledge the sin and promise to try to do better next time. We could fall every day but we still acknowledge the behavior is a sin. We ask forgiveness.
If a homosexual acts on his desire the same applies. When the “gay” lifestyle is advanced as not a sin that is very different from the above scenarios/
B
buffalo
Guest
Will you next accept those that have a pedophilia orientation?As a member fo the Society of Friends, we have struggeled among ourselves exactly where do gay men and lesbian women fit into our religious life as a Meeting.
We believe in the worth of persons. We do not negate the stories of gay men and lesbian women when making these value judgements.
We do no assume gay people are lying when they say they love one another…especially when we have Friends that happen to be gay who have been together for 20-30 + years. The lives they live and kindness they exhibit and the integrity by which they conduct their lives speaks for itself. We do not claim to be able to read their hearts and make the love they obviously have for one another into “lust” simply because the love they share doesn’t conform to our middle-class American ideas, nor do we accept what others say about them because of a preconceived religious agenda…we trust that these gay men and lesbian women, who for the most part are educated and articulate can speak for themselves as to how they feel about their partner. We trust them as brothers and sisters to us and do not impose our lack of understanding and ignorance in the scope of human sexuality upon them
Friends were among the first religious group to accept gay and lesbian people into our Meetings as equals, even taking their requests to put their relationship “under the care of the Meeting” and commit to one another “after the manner of Friends” in marriage…whether the state recongnizes those relationships or not has liitle impact for us…the Meeting does accept them and blesses their union. All “marriages” of gay and straight go through a “clearness committee” and if approved a Meeting for Worship for Marriage will be scheduled.
We do not pull stories from scripture that on the surface appear to condemn gay people out of hand from a culture so removed from ours we would find lfe in that culture very difficult for ourselves so we will not impose 4000 year old biases, prejudices and beliefs that has their roots in the primitive world view of a primitive desert nomadic culture.
We do not believe that the writers of scripture were psychologists, scientists, sociologists and human behaviorists. We do not accept their cosmology of a earth-centric universe or a three tiered view or heaven and earth. We do not accept that women are property and that slavery is acceptable. We believe the Light Within guides humanity to further light in matters of human equality.
If we are wrong, we choose to err on the side of love and mercy than on the side of condemnation and judgement. We are content in our way, we believe we are led by the Light of Christ, and if one day, for whatever reason, we fall under the judgement of an angry God, so be it, it is our firm conviction that we have walked in the Light and put ourselves in God’s hands.
We will work to support our gay and lesbian Friends for full equality under the law…in short we embrace the “gay agenda” (whatever that is) of conservative, fundamentalist double speak.
T
Truthwarrior
Guest
I am always amused by the way homosexual activists come out with all the old chestnuts from the O.T. about not wearing mixed fabrics and sticking to certain dietary requirements and then saying we don’t stick to those prohibitions now. Of course we don’t because they were just disciplines. Nothing to do with morals. A discipline like Friday fasts can change, moral teaching cannot and does not.fix
By good gays I mean Christian gays who practice Christianity and who are as holy as any other Christian.
For those wishing to classify homosexuality as a sin I would like to say it is not listed as above and beyond or being greater than other sins listed in the Old T. It is not listed as being one of the Ten Commandments. The Old T. says to stone adulterers to death. Why don’t we do that today ? Why do we single out some scriptures as being valid and not others? The Old T. also says we shouldn’t wear clothing of mixed fabrics. Why don’t we practice this?
We don’t beat up on liars, cheaters, adulterers etc. and chain them to a fence leaving them there to die like a recent case in the U.S.A. where a gay person was killed. When are we going to stop beating up on gays and killing them? When are we going to stop saying its O.K. to treat gays like lepers? Jesus went toward the lepers. How do you know he doesn’t go towards our gay brothers and sisters? The least shall be first…the first shall be last…
Homosexual apologists also studiously avoid St. Paul’s comments in 1: Corr 6-9 and Romans 1: 26-28
While I agree that a small percentage of people may be naturally attracted to their own sex, I feel the great majority of so called homosexuals are in fact men who have discovered another avenue for sexual gratification.
In purely natural terms homosexuality can never be a legitimate expression of sexuality because it is so manifestly unnatural. The very act is a parody of the real thing. The relationship is both sterile and self-indulgent.
It is the misuse of the gift of sexuality from God. Sex is a God given gift that enables mankind to participate in God’s incredible power of creation. It wasn’t meant as an end in itself, which is what sex between same sex couples is.
It has always been condemned by Christianity and always will be.
Homosexual activity is a sin and the urge to practise it is a temptation like any other. Why people, who suffer from this particular temptation should be allowed to indulge in it is beyond me. Allowances are not made for people who have the urge to murder, rob banks or have sex with children.
V
Valke2
Guest
Talk about “old chestnuts”Will you next accept those that have a pedophilia orientation?
B
buffalo
Guest
The question stands.Talk about “old chestnuts”
F
fix
Guest
Does one have to lie to be mistaken? I mean one may be sincere and still be very wrong.We do no assume gay people are lying when they say they love one another…
So, kindness, however you define it, is the ultimate measure of truth and morality. If one thinks it is kind to view porn does that make the act good?especially when we have Friends that happen to be gay who have been together for 20-30 + years. The lives they live and kindness they exhibit and the integrity by which they conduct their lives speaks for itself.
An your preconceived agenda stems from what? I mean you replace Church dogma with your dogma. Why is yours correct?We do not claim to be able to read their hearts and make the love they obviously have for one another into “lust” simply because the love they share doesn’t conform to our middle-class American ideas, nor do we accept what others say about them because of a preconceived religious agenda…
So, following Christ’s will is ignorance.we trust that these gay men and lesbian women, who for the most part are educated and articulate can speak for themselves as to how they feel about their partner. We trust them as brothers and sisters to us and do not impose our lack of understanding and ignorance in the scope of human sexuality upon them
Is this not a tad arrogant?We do not pull stories from scripture that on the surface appear to condemn gay people out of hand from a culture so removed from ours we would find lfe in that culture very difficult for ourselves so we will not impose 4000 year old biases, prejudices and beliefs that has their roots in the primitive world view of a primitive desert nomadic culture.
P
Publisher
Guest
No of course not…a red herring of a question.Will you next accept those that have a pedophilia orientation?
P
Publisher
Guest
I am not a conservative “christian”…I do not embrace the idea of “church dogma” nor am I under any authority other than the Light of Christ…if I am judged on the Last Day as wrong, I will accept what is in store from His Hands, but I will not blindly follow just because “the church says so.”Does one have to lie to be mistaken? I mean one may be sincere and still be very wrong.
So, kindness, however you define it, is the ultimate measure of truth and morality. If one thinks it is kind to view porn does that make the act good?
An your preconceived agenda stems from what? I mean you replace Church dogma with your dogma. Why is yours correct?
So, following Christ’s will is ignorance.
Is this not a tad arrogant?
F
fix
Guest
So, your source of authority is you. That means sincerity is the crucial test. As long as we are sincere anything goes and we will not find out until we meet God face to face so to speak. I find that a recipe for relativism.I am not a conservative “christian”…I do not embrace the idea of “church dogma” nor am I under any authority other than the Light of Christ…if I am judged on the Last Day as wrong, I will accept what is in store from His Hands, but I will not blindly follow just because “the church says so.”
R
Righteousone
Guest
Just my :twocents: I know that you are born this way, you don’t find out until you are about 13 or 14 or even younger what you are. Being gay is not a choice. Why would someone want to live in a harsh world where people look down on you b/c of sexual preference? They do not choose to be gay.
I do not think that at 13 you find you are gay, then die in a car accident and God sends you to hell. No, it cannot be this way. There is a third gender out there which had to be missed somewhere down the road. God loves everyone regardless. He knows anyway from birth on what you are at all ages. He knows everything, therefore He cannot possibly condemn you at 12 years old…
I do not think that at 13 you find you are gay, then die in a car accident and God sends you to hell. No, it cannot be this way. There is a third gender out there which had to be missed somewhere down the road. God loves everyone regardless. He knows anyway from birth on what you are at all ages. He knows everything, therefore He cannot possibly condemn you at 12 years old…
F
fix
Guest
A third gender? Sex is not binary? God made man, woman, and something else?Just my :twocents: I know that you are born this way, you don’t find out until you are about 13 or 14 or even younger what you are. Being gay is not a choice. Why would someone want to live in a harsh world where people look down on you b/c of sexual preference? They do not choose to be gay.
I do not think that at 13 you find you are gay, then die in a car accident and God sends you to hell. No, it cannot be this way. There is a third gender out there which had to be missed somewhere down the road. God loves everyone regardless. He knows anyway from birth on what you are at all ages. He knows everything, therefore He cannot possibly condemn you at 12 years old…
R
Righteousone
Guest
Yes, man, woman and third gender. Whatever you may want to call it. On an application, it should read: male, female, etc…
I am not gay by all means, and I do not support gay marriage or anything like that, but I am compassionate toward people and I know in my heart that God is compassionate also. After all, He knew this before you were born. You are a child when you find out for God’s sake.
I am not gay by all means, and I do not support gay marriage or anything like that, but I am compassionate toward people and I know in my heart that God is compassionate also. After all, He knew this before you were born. You are a child when you find out for God’s sake.
T
Truthwarrior
Guest
Publisher,No of course not…a red herring of a question.
50 years ago people reacted to homosexuality in exactly the way you react to the idea of pedophilia now. It is not a “red herring of a question” In my youth homosexuality was regarded as totally unacceptable. Now it is considered “normal” by much of the population. At the rate of moral decline in the world in another 50 years pedophilia will be regarded as something that is perfectly “normal”
The process has already started in some counties. In Holland the age of consent has been dropped to 12. A few months ago a political party was formed in Holland whose main aim is to do away with the age of consent all together.
F
fix
Guest
That is absurd. There all all types of physical deformities that occur in nature but that does not mean it was ordained that way from the start. We are in a fallen world.Yes, man, woman and third gender. Whatever you may want to call it. On an application, it should read: male, female, etc…
That is why good psychological and medical counseling are needed.I am not gay by all means, and I do not support gay marriage or anything like that, but I am compassionate toward people and I know in my heart that God is compassionate also. After all, He knew this before you were born. You are a child when you find out for God’s sake.
P
Publisher
Guest
Sexual relationships between consenting adults is a far cry from imposing by force or manipulation sexual situation on a child who does not have the life experience or capacity to choose for themselves. Sexual predators that prey upon children has nothing whatsoever to do with what consenting adults do with one another in a sexual situation.Publisher,
50 years ago people reacted to homosexuality in exactly the way you react to the idea of pedophilia now. It is not a “red herring of a question” In my youth homosexuality was regarded as totally unacceptable. Now it is considered “normal” by much of the population. At the rate of moral decline in the world in another 50 years pedophilia will be regarded as something that is perfectly “normal”
The process has already started in some counties. In Holland the age of consent has been dropped to 12. A few months ago a political party was formed in Holland whose main aim is to do away with the age of consent all together.
R
Righteousone
Guest
Physical deformaties?? You think being gay is an abnormality? That gays are deformed? God knew one to be deformed, yet He loved Him anyway.That is absurd. There all all types of physical deformities that occur in nature but that does not mean it was ordained that way from the start. We are in a fallen world.
That is why good psychological and medical counseling are needed.
I am not talking about pedophelia either. That is someone who knows better. I am talking about children who think they are outcasts from God and that’s a real problem b/c they are not. I knew a friend’s son was suicidal at 15 years old b/c some Baptist told him he was going to hell in a hand basket b/c of this.
Which by the way brings me to say the Catholic church is the most tolerant of this.
You think phychiatry can help? No, being gay is not a choice.
I
ImmaculataChamp
Guest
God loves the sinner; hates the sin…
- Status
- Not open for further replies.