God loves the sinner...

[Faith101]

Peace

I hear Christian saying this often, and its difficult for me to grasp.

God loves the sinner, hates the sin.

Does this mean He loves all sinners, or just ones who repent? And where does this idea originate from (verses from Bible would help )

 

[Della]

Mt.9:13 “Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Mk. 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Lk. 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Jn. 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world (sinners), but that the world (sinners) might be saved through him.

Rom. 5:8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Just for a start.

 

[b_justb]

1 Tim 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Matt 9:13 But go and learn what this means: `I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 6:32-38 If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure–pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.

1 John 4:9-11 In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also must love one another.

 

[Faith101]

Thanks guys for your response

I agree that the guidance of God excludes no one, except those who exclude themselves.

In light of the verses you posted, how do you understand this verse (which talks about those who do major sins):

Leviticus 26:30 I will destroy your high places, and break your idols. You shall fall among the ruins of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Does God love all sinners? Is it an unconditional love, and if so what do you make of the above verse

Thanks again

 

[ABalch]

God is the originator of “tough love”. Sometimes, especially when you do love someone, you must give them a consequence to their actions. You wouldn’t stand by and tell your kid that was about to hurt themselves, “it’s ok. I love you, and so will allow you to do wrong, for fear of harming you by preventing you from doing wrong.”

Especially in thinking of the examples of kids making mistakes when young, what parent would totally keep away from any form of “punishment” when their kid misbehaves. How do you teach a child the wrong of something, without some form of punishment. This is not to advise beating them to within an inch of death because they, for instance does something they should know not to do–like asking your niece if she went in her panties and she emphatically says no, even though it is obvious that stuff is leaking out, and down her legs. The punishment for her might be not getting to wear panties, but instead being put into a diaper, to teach her that when she potties in her panties, she will be placed back into the less comfortable diapers, in effort to teach her to go potty in the toilet, not on herself.

so, in response to your question about the quoted scripture where God says his soul would abhor us, I look upon it more as what we already know, that sin is offensive to God. Could you say that you abhor the smell and uncleanliness of dirty diapers? It doesn’t mean that you abhor the child that dirtied the diaper, but that you can’t say that you love the smell and incovenience of cleaning up said dirty diaper. It actually is an expression of my love for my niece that makes me “punish” her by putting her in uncomforable diapers when she doesn’t use the toilet, and “punish” her by putting her on the toilet to try every couple hours if she hasn’t yet dirtied her diaper, but also what makes me “praise” her by putting her in underwear when she does let me know in time that she needs to use the toilet.

I find it totally fitting in that God is our ultimate creator, that he would treat us sometimes very much like we treat our own children.

 

[Faith101]

so, in response to your question about the quoted scripture where God says his soul would abhor us, I look upon it more as what we already know, that sin is offensive to God. Could you say that you abhor the smell and uncleanliness of dirty diapers? It doesn’t mean that you abhor the child that dirtied the diaper, but that you can’t say that you love the smell and incovenience of cleaning up said dirty diaper

First, thank you for your well thought out explanation

I understand what you are saying, but the Bible clearly states “He will abhor YOU” not just the sin,but the sinner themselves. Therefore, the anology of the baby in diapers doesnt fit…because you would say to the baby “i hate the smell of your diapers” and not “I hate YOU.”

Similiarly, the Bible states

Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Psalms: “The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates”

Is it an unconditional love, or is it based on God’s terms?

 

[MonicaC]

Faith101:

Thanks guys for your response

I agree that the guidance of God excludes no one, except those who exclude themselves.

In light of the verses you posted, how do you understand this verse (which talks about those who do major sins):

Leviticus 26:30 I will destroy your high places, and break your idols. You shall fall among the ruins of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Does God love all sinners? Is it an unconditional love, and if so what do you make of the above verse

Thanks again

Hello

I always try to look at in my own shoes. I am a mother of three, I love my children to no end. But does that mean that I will let them break my rules? No, I will punish them for their lack of respect for me and their lack of obedience to my rules. And yes I will be very angry with them and hope that they will do better next time, but ultimately this is their choice. But I will never ever stop loving them. Now my children are still small all under 10. My mother on the other hand has five children and we are all grown with families of our own. Now she always says that no matter what happens she will always love us. Now that we are out on our own we have the choice on weather we want to return to her house at anytime. We all know that this is our choice to make. Thank Goodness we all have made the choice to return to her house to visit and be with her.

Now the same can be said with God. Keep in mind he is far better of a parent than any of us could ever hope to be. He has proven this to us time and time again. He loves us for ever, and it really hurts Him to see us hurt ourselves with sin. He really hates that sin, but never us.

 

[Faith101]

MonicaC:

Hello

I always try to look at in my own shoes. I am a mother of three, I love my children to no end. But does that mean that I will let them break my rules? No, I will punish them for their lack of respect for me and their lack of obedience to my rules. And yes I will be very angry with them and hope that they will do better next time, but ultimately this is their choice. But I will never ever stop loving them. Now my children are still small all under 10. My mother on the other hand has five children and we are all grown with families of our own. Now she always says that no matter what happens she will always love us. Now that we are out on our own we have the choice on weather we want to return to her house at anytime. We all know that this is our choice to make. Thank Goodness we all have made the choice to return to her house to visit and be with her.

Now the same can be said with God. Keep in mind he is far better of a parent than any of us could ever hope to be. He has proven this to us time and time again. He loves us for ever, and it really hurts Him to see us hurt ourselves with sin. He really hates that sin, but never us.

I understand that Christians see God as their father,and they as God’s children. How do you reconcile your beliefs with those verses in the Bible which I quoted?

Also, we all know that Hell exists, and some people will be thrown in there forever. Are these also the people that God loves?

 

[ABalch]

I looked up the merriam-webster definition of abhor

abhor: to regard with extreme repugnance

I looked up Hate

hate: a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy **: **

Now, I think most people would aggree that in the above first definition of hate, God has no reason to fear our sins. One could make the point that Jesus was injured by the sins of the world in the agony of the garden, and while being crucified. Certainly a person might feel antipathy towards someone that does something against them, and is in no way repentant of the act. Sin being the lack of good, God could be said to have extreme repugnance, dislike, or antipathy for sin itself, and for the unrepentant person. After all, we do all believe that He who is most high will judge us, right? Would it be any kind of judgement if he ignores sins we have committed, but which we are unrepentant for.

Again, it is hard to compare human emotion to the All Powerful, but I ask you to seriously consider an extreme example. Say I walk up to you, for no reason that you can discern, I take out a gun and shoot you in the leg. Are you going to instantly try to get to your feet, and say, "I don’t understand why you did that, and I don’t expect you to explain, or even apologize for what you did. I will forgive you immediately, without any reservations. " Now, in that extrem example, you might have it within you to totally forgive someone for shooting you in the leg, if they walked up to you, shot you, and when you lay on the ground, bleeding and moaning they fell to their knees, begged you for forgiveness, and tried to make reperations to you, explaining that for whatever reason, let’s call it a bad day at work, they just needed to shoot someone or they felt they would go crazy. As soon as they shot you they snapped out of it, and realized just how terrible of a thing they had done.

Now, onto the further definition of hate. I looked up aversion, since it was mentioned in the above defintion of hate, Merriam-webster says,
1(obsolete) the act of turning away)
2a : a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it <regards drunkenness with aversion>

Now, if God is stating he hates one person, while loving the other, and hate can be defined as aversion to the subject being discussed, and aversion, at least used to commonly be the act of turning away, we see evidence in scriptures of God turning away his favor from a person who has offended God. The second definition of aversion also fits in with God turning away His favor when someone strongly offends him. God’s desire is that all come to love Him and obey His commandments. God will not force anyone to love Him, though, and if God did not have aversion to evil, which is the lack of good, then he could not be said to judge anything, nor could anything be said to be evil, or even good. Both of those concepts are defined by God. For, God is good, all that God created is Good, and the lack of Good, or lack of God, is evil. This creates an interesting argument. God loves everything, since everything is God’s creation. God cannot love evil, since evil is the lack of good, and the lack of God. In our limited understanding of the concepts of Good and Evil (Yes, limited, in that we can not be omniscient, being created beings, which must by definition be less then the Creator), we contrast love with such words as hatred, disgust, aversion, repugnance, etc. None of these concepts would really exist in the absence of the concept of love.

 

[MonicaC]

Faith101:

I understand that Christians see God as their father,and they as God’s children. How do you reconcile your beliefs with those verses in the Bible which I quoted?

Also, we all know that Hell exists, and some people will be thrown in there forever. Are these also the people that God loves?

Yes I do believe there is a hell! And I do believe that God does love all of his children. But as I stated above it is ultimatly our choice to be with him forever. We chose hell ourselves when we decide that We should rather be without God. Through sin.

Remember that God wants us to love him willingly and with this free will we can chose to sin and not repent. That is why God hates the sin because it cause us to be ways from Him. What parent wants his children away from him?

 

[Faith101]

Yes I do believe there is a hell! And I do believe that God does love all of his children.

How do you reconcile the verse where God says that He loves one person but hates another, with your belief that God loves everyone?

But as I stated above it is ultimatly our choice to be with him forever. We chose hell ourselves when we decide that We should rather be without God. Through sin.

We all sin. Sometimes we sin without knowing. None of us deserve paradise because of our deeds alone. anyone who will enter, will enter because of the mercy of our Creator.

Remember that God wants us to love him willingly and with this free will we can chose to sin and not repent. That is why God hates the sin because it cause us to be ways from Him. What parent wants his children away from him?/

According to my understanding of the verse, God also hates the sinner, and will put them in hell after judgment day. How do you understand the verse?

 

[Faith101]

ABalch:

I looked up the merriam-webster definition of abhor

abhor: to regard with extreme repugnance

I looked up Hate

hate: a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy **: **

Now, I think most people would aggree that in the above first definition of hate, God has no reason to fear our sins. One could make the point that Jesus was injured by the sins of the world in the agony of the garden, and while being crucified. Certainly a person might feel antipathy towards someone that does something against them, and is in no way repentant of the act. Sin being the lack of good, God could be said to have extreme repugnance, dislike, or antipathy for sin itself, and for the unrepentant person. After all, we do all believe that He who is most high will judge us, right? Would it be any kind of judgement if he ignores sins we have committed, but which we are unrepentant for.

Again, it is hard to compare human emotion to the All Powerful, but I ask you to seriously consider an extreme example. Say I walk up to you, for no reason that you can discern, I take out a gun and shoot you in the leg. Are you going to instantly try to get to your feet, and say, "I don’t understand why you did that, and I don’t expect you to explain, or even apologize for what you did. I will forgive you immediately, without any reservations. " Now, in that extrem example, you might have it within you to totally forgive someone for shooting you in the leg, if they walked up to you, shot you, and when you lay on the ground, bleeding and moaning they fell to their knees, begged you for forgiveness, and tried to make reperations to you, explaining that for whatever reason, let’s call it a bad day at work, they just needed to shoot someone or they felt they would go crazy. As soon as they shot you they snapped out of it, and realized just how terrible of a thing they had done.

Now, onto the further definition of hate. I looked up aversion, since it was mentioned in the above defintion of hate, Merriam-webster says,
1(obsolete) the act of turning away)
2a : a feeling of repugnance toward something with a desire to avoid or turn from it <regards drunkenness with aversion>

Now, if God is stating he hates one person, while loving the other, and hate can be defined as aversion to the subject being discussed, and aversion, at least used to commonly be the act of turning away, we see evidence in scriptures of God turning away his favor from a person who has offended God. The second definition of aversion also fits in with God turning away His favor when someone strongly offends him. God’s desire is that all come to love Him and obey His commandments. God will not force anyone to love Him, though, and if God did not have aversion to evil, which is the lack of good, then he could not be said to judge anything, nor could anything be said to be evil, or even good. Both of those concepts are defined by God. For, God is good, all that God created is Good, and the lack of Good, or lack of God, is evil. This creates an interesting argument. God loves everything, since everything is God’s creation. God cannot love evil, since evil is the lack of good, and the lack of God. In our limited understanding of the concepts of Good and Evil (Yes, limited, in that we can not be omniscient, being created beings, which must by definition be less then the Creator), we contrast love with such words as hatred, disgust, aversion, repugnance, etc. None of these concepts would really exist in the absence of the concept of love.

thank you for the explanation…although i may not have understood everythign you said completely

Please correct me if i misundestood you…are you saying that while God says I love one person and hates another (contrasting the two ideas), He really means that He loves both people?

 

[MonicaC]

Faith101:

How do you reconcile the verse where God says that He loves one person but hates another, with your belief that God loves everyone?

I am not of any authority to say how a verse should be interpertated but this is my humble opinion, that God is all loving and cannot hate any of us but He does hate our sins.

We all sin. Sometimes we sin without knowing. None of us deserve paradise because of our deeds alone. anyone who will enter, will enter because of the mercy of our Creator.

I thougth I had said this clearly but I am very sorry if I didn’t make myself clear. We are given the chance to repent through the sacrament of penenace (sp?). And when we openly acknowledge our sins we are also repenting. But it is those who refuse to repent especially when knowing fullly that they have sinned or are sinning.

According to my understanding of the verse, God also hates the sinner, and will put them in hell after judgment day. How do you understand the verse?

I explained this above.

 

[George_Waters]

MonicaC:

Yes I do believe there is a hell! And I do believe that God does love all of his children. But as I stated above it is ultimatly our choice to be with him forever. We chose hell ourselves when we decide that We should rather be without God. Through sin.

Remember that God wants us to love him willingly and with this free will we can chose to sin and not repent. That is why God hates the sin because it cause us to be ways from Him. What parent wants his children away from him?

MonicaC,

Very well stated post!

Faith101,

Does Islam teach that some souls are pre-destined for Hell or that, as MonicaC said, “…it is ultimatly our choice to be with him forever. We chose hell ourselves when we decide that We should rather be without God. Through sin.”

Peace,

George

P.S. Faith101,

It seems many Muslims have become disgusted and left this forum, I am pleased you have not. With so many Muslim members leaving it is sometimes hard to discuss our faiths. Thanks for sticking with this forum and for sharing your beliefs with us. I know we have a different view of Jesus, that He is my savior and your prophet, but I think we can agree it is good He came to us. Please allow me to wish you a Merry Christmas in celebration of his birth.

Peace Sister Faith101,

George

 

[Faith101]

I am not of any authority to say how a verse should be interpertated but this is my humble opinion, that God is all loving and cannot hate any of us but He does hate our sins

God says I hate this person and I abhor these people…but you interpret it to mean that He loves everybody. I want to know how you got to that conclusion.

 

[Faith101]

MonicaC,

Very well stated post!

Faith101,

Does Islam teach that some souls are pre-destined for Hell or that, as MonicaC said, “…it is ultimatly our choice to be with him forever. We chose hell ourselves when we decide that We should rather be without God. Through sin.”

Allah has given us free will, and with that we choose. Ofcourse, Allah knows even before we were created which path we will choose, because He is the all-knowing.

It seems many Muslims have become disgusted and left this forum, I am pleased you have not. With so many Muslim members leaving it is sometimes hard to discuss our faiths. Thanks for sticking with this forum and for sharing your beliefs with us. I know we have a different view of Jesus, that He is my savior and your prophet, but I think we can agree it is good He came to us. Please allow me to wish you a Merry Christmas in celebration of his birth.

Thanks for your kind words George

 

[MonicaC]

Faith101:

God says I hate this person and I abhor these people…but you interpret it to mean that He loves everybody. I want to know how you got to that conclusion.

‘’

As I stated before God cannot hate like we hate he is all loving. He can though hate a persons acts.

Let me try again to explain my thoughts through another means. As I stated above I have three children, but only two children here on earth. I don’t hate my lost child by any means but I do hate the fact that he is gone. Now this hard to explain because it was no fault of his that he is gone. But I do know some who have lost children who are gone due to their own faults, ie; not obeying rules. Now if you were to ask that parent if they hate their child for not obeying them what do you think they would say? No they would most likely say that they hate the idea that the child did not obey but they still love the child.

I hope this explains my postion a little better.

 

[MonicaC]

George Waters:

MonicaC,

Very well stated post!

Thank you George but I cannot take credit for this I remember reading something only the same lines of this in Medjorgory the Message by Webel.

 

[Della]

Faith101:

God says I hate this person and I abhor these people…but you interpret it to mean that He loves everybody. I want to know how you got to that conclusion.

When reading anything from the Bible one has to properly interpret Scripture by the times in which they were written, the mission of God within the context of the passage and the intent of the author.

The Old Testament was written primarily for the People of God whom he had chosen to ultimately bring the Messiah into the world. God expected a higher standard from his own people, but those who opposed his will were, while on this earth, to be avoided and in some cases abhorred because they led God’s people away from true worship of him for the idols of the pagans.

As individuals, the writers of the OT weren’t concerned with the salvation of the unrepentant Gentile–God had not revealed the plan of salvation to come with his Messiah. Many OT writers had no concept of an afterlife, but only thought of serving God in this life. But, the expression that God hated this person or that people is all based in how they opposed God’s will for Israel.

It is not the God did not love all persons, but that he abhorred them when they opposed his will, especially when they did so deliberately. Since the coming of the Messiah, the age of grace has come into the world, the mission of Israel as the bringer of the Messiah has been finished in Jesus’ revealing his Father as the God of love, who loves the whole world. God always loved the whole world, but condemned those who opposed his will for Israel in their part of his plan of salvation in his Son.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Faith101:

Peace

I hear Christian saying this often, and its difficult for me to grasp.

God loves the sinner, hates the sin.

Does this mean He loves all sinners, or just ones who repent? And where does this idea originate from (verses from Bible would help )

God is perfect. He was perfect before He made us and is perfect after He made us. He didn’t make us because He was lonely or otherwise incomplete because then He would have been imperfect before us. He made us out of love. Since God is perfect, it is imperfect for His love to be imperfect. If His love is perfect, His love for us doesn’t change because we are sinners or don’t repent. His love for us is eternal, perfect, and unconditional.