God passing over people

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God only sustains good things in existence. It is contrary to His goodness to sustain the body of the rapist and its victim together during the evil act. The only conclusion is that the Devil has the power to sustain matter when sins are being committed.
This is false. The CCC#301 says:

God upholds and sustains creation.

With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:

The fact of the matter is, is that human beings can neither do good or evil unless God sustains their being in existence at every moment as the CCC says. It is not contrary to the divine goodness that God must sustain us at all times even when we sin or the evil actions of evil men; on the contrary, it is according to the divine goodness. For God created human beings with free will and because of this, in God’s goodness, he allows them the free use of their free will even when they abuse it. God has to sustain in existence at all times even the abuse and evil that can result from the exercise of our free will. God is taking a hard hit from us that even in the evil use of our free will he has to sustain the exercise of our free will in existence. This pertains to God’s goodness since he respects the use we make of our free will which he created us with in his own image and likeness. This is the gamble God made in creating creatures with free will knowing that many of them would reject Him; though many too would submit themselves to his authority and love and serve him and be rewarded with eternal life and happiness.
 
This is not so because it assumes linear time (Theory-A) for God. God is of a different order and is not limited to what creatures experience. Theory-B of time is in keeping with the traditional Catholic teaching.

Predestination does not prevent free-will.

As St. Thomas Aquinas addressed in Summa Theologica on Predestination (Q23), it is a part of providence which may allow for failures (Q 22 A 2). So predestination has to do with those destined to eternal glory, but reprobation pertains to those who will fall short of this goal through their own rejection of grace.
The type or lack of time is not important. It is the infallible knowledge of the creator and the creative act. Knowing that so and so would perish to eternal damnation, the Christian God proceeded with that creation. As you stated earlier, some he elected before their existence, others during their existence. Even though that directly refers to a difference in time, that is not the point…at least not the main point.
The Christian God created (causation) with full and absolute knowledge of the fate of all his creation. He created some for damnation…their is no logical way around that point. Even the Church considers this to be a great mystery.

John
 
The type or lack of time is not important. It is the infallible knowledge of the creator and the creative act. Knowing that so and so would perish to eternal damnation, the Christian God proceeded with that creation. As you stated earlier, some he elected before their existence, others during their existence. Even though that directly refers to a difference in time, that is not the point…at least not the main point.
The Christian God created (causation) with full and absolute knowledge of the fate of all his creation. He created some for damnation…their is no logical way around that point. Even the Church considers this to be a great mystery.

John
The Church teaches that “God predestines on one to go to hell” (CCC#1037).
 
The Church teaches that “God predestines on one to go to hell” (CCC#1037).
And there lies one of my major reasons for finding that the Deist creator is a more reasonable vision of the creator. He wills no one, anywhere. We are a consequence of creation, not the center of it. IMHO.

John
 
The type or lack of time is not important. It is the infallible knowledge of the creator and the creative act. Knowing that so and so would perish to eternal damnation, the Christian God proceeded with that creation. As you stated earlier, some he elected before their existence, others during their existence. Even though that directly refers to a difference in time, that is not the point…at least not the main point.
The Christian God created (causation) with full and absolute knowledge of the fate of all his creation. He created some for damnation…their is no logical way around that point. Even the Church considers this to be a great mystery.

John
No creature in any philosophical or religious system that I have studied (and I studied all major schools) initially asked to be created, and how could they not having been created yet. The heretical Predestinarianism is different than the Catholic predestination. On the topic of Fate, the Catholic Encyclopedia, states that God cannot will that which is evil and that God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen yet He does not will everything:According to Catholic teaching, God, who is the Author of the universe, has made it subject to fixed and necessary laws so that, where our knowledge of these laws is complete, we are able to predict physical events with certainty. Moreover, God’s absolute decree is irrevocable, but, as He cannot will that which is evil, the abuse of free will is in no case predetermined by Him. The physical accompaniments of the free act of the will as well as its consequences, are willed by God conditionally upon the positing of the act itself, and all alike are the object of His eternal foreknowledge. The nature of this foreknowledge is a matter still in dispute between the opposing schools of Bañez and Molina. Hence, though God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen, He does not will everything. Sin He does not will in any sense; He only permits it. Certain things He wills absolutely and others conditionally, and His general supervision, whereby these decrees are carried out, is called Divine Providence. As God is a free agent, the order of nature is not necessary in the sense that it could not have been otherwise than it is. It is only necessary in so far as it works according to definite uniform laws and is predetermined by a decree which, though absolute, was nevertheless free.

Kendal, J. (1909). Fate. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/05793a.htm
 
No creature in any philosophical or religious system that I have studied (and I studied all major schools) initially asked to be created, and how could they not having been created yet. The heretical Predestinarianism is different than the Catholic predestination. On the topic of Fate, the Catholic Encyclopedia, states that God cannot will that which is evil and that God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen yet He does not will everything:According to Catholic teaching, God, who is the Author of the universe, has made it subject to fixed and necessary laws so that, where our knowledge of these laws is complete, we are able to predict physical events with certainty. Moreover, God’s absolute decree is irrevocable, but, as He cannot will that which is evil, the abuse of free will is in no case predetermined by Him. The physical accompaniments of the free act of the will as well as its consequences, are willed by God conditionally upon the positing of the act itself, and all alike are the object of His eternal foreknowledge. The nature of this foreknowledge is a matter still in dispute between the opposing schools of Bañez and Molina. Hence, though God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen, He does not will everything. Sin He does not will in any sense; He only permits it. Certain things He wills absolutely and others conditionally, and His general supervision, whereby these decrees are carried out, is called Divine Providence. As God is a free agent, the order of nature is not necessary in the sense that it could not have been otherwise than it is. It is only necessary in so far as it works according to definite uniform laws and is predetermined by a decree which, though absolute, was nevertheless free.

Kendal, J. (1909). Fate. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/05793a.htm
I respect your interpretation of the Catholic Encyclopedia…I do think that you might want to look deeper. This I will say…most of what state come across as excuses for the inconsistencies of your deity. Obviously, you are a Thomist…that’s fine…but…his opinion carries no more weight than yours or mine.

John
 
I respect your interpretation of the Catholic Encyclopedia…I do think that you might want to look deeper. This I will say…most of what state come across as excuses for the inconsistencies of your deity. Obviously, you are a Thomist…that’s fine…but…his opinion carries no more weight than yours or mine.

John
Much of what I posted has been from St. Thomas, but also from other sources of Catholic dogma used by the Catholic Church. I don’t know of any inconsistencies, so I don’t see what you are referring to.

In these matters, it comes down to authority in the end and I can see that you reject the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. I have to align myself with the Catholic teaching as a matter of faith, even when I do not comprehend.
 
This is false. The CCC#301 says:

God upholds and sustains creation.

With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:

The fact of the matter is, is that human beings can neither do good or evil unless God sustains their being in existence at every moment as the CCC says. It is not contrary to the divine goodness that God must sustain us at all times even when we sin or the evil actions of evil men; on the contrary, it is according to the divine goodness. For God created human beings with free will and because of this, in God’s goodness, he allows them the free use of their free will even when they abuse it. God has to sustain in existence at all times even the abuse and evil that can result from the exercise of our free will. God is taking a hard hit from us that even in the evil use of our free will he has to sustain the exercise of our free will in existence. This pertains to God’s goodness since he respects the use we make of our free will which he created us with in his own image and likeness. This is the gamble God made in creating creatures with free will knowing that many of them would reject Him; though many too would submit themselves to his authority and love and serve him and be rewarded with eternal life and happiness.
This post is false.

God would be evil if He actively sustained the molester and the child together, so the devil must do this, although of course the devil would be sustained by God I suppose
 
Thomists believe that the relations of the Trinity are part of the nature, so the Son is also Fatherhood itself; that the will and reason in God are exactly the same, but that one proceeds the son and the other the Holy Spirit so that they have different activities as different faculties; that the Father uses His reason to proceed the Son, but the reason is part of the God-nature and thus IS the Son; that God’s knowledge of His being is not discursive or multiplied at all, and yet the Father knows the Son and the Holy Spirit as different Persons, and knows evil as distinct from good.

If at the tope of human reason there can be these logical strange paradox’s, I think it may have been possible for humans to have a moment before their existence in which they are asked whether they want to take the test on earth which will result in salvation or damnation.
 
No creature in any philosophical or religious system that I have studied (and I studied all major schools) initially asked to be created, and how could they not having been created yet. The heretical Predestinarianism is different than the Catholic predestination. On the topic of Fate, the Catholic Encyclopedia, states that God cannot will that which is evil and that God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen yet He does not will everything:According to Catholic teaching, God, who is the Author of the universe, has made it subject to fixed and necessary laws so that, where our knowledge of these laws is complete, we are able to predict physical events with certainty. Moreover, God’s absolute decree is irrevocable, but, as He cannot will that which is evil, the abuse of free will is in no case predetermined by Him. The physical accompaniments of the free act of the will as well as its consequences, are willed by God conditionally upon the positing of the act itself, and all alike are the object of His eternal foreknowledge. The nature of this foreknowledge is a matter still in dispute between the opposing schools of Bañez and Molina. Hence, though God knows from all eternity everything that is going to happen, He does not will everything. Sin He does not will in any sense; He only permits it. Certain things He wills absolutely and others conditionally, and His general supervision, whereby these decrees are carried out, is called Divine Providence. As God is a free agent, the order of nature is not necessary in the sense that it could not have been otherwise than it is. It is only necessary in so far as it works according to definite uniform laws and is predetermined by a decree which, though absolute, was nevertheless free.

Kendal, J. (1909). Fate. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/05793a.htm
Why do you think Aquinas in the Summa said “God neither desires good nor evil to be done” when speaking of predestination? I think he meant that God desires to allow evil sometimes to bring a good out of it. I can’t believe that sentence however is actually in the summa
 
Thomists believe that the relations of the Trinity are part of the nature, so the Son is also Fatherhood itself; that the will and reason in God are exactly the same, but that one proceeds the son and the other the Holy Spirit so that they have different activities as different faculties; that the Father uses His reason to proceed the Son, but the reason is part of the God-nature and thus IS the Son; that God’s knowledge of His being is not discursive or multiplied at all, and yet the Father knows the Son and the Holy Spirit as different Persons, and knows evil as distinct from good.

If at the tope of human reason there can be these logical strange paradox’s, I think it may have been possible for humans to have a moment before their existence in which they are asked whether they want to take the test on earth which will result in salvation or damnation.
God the Son is not Fatherhood itself. Fatherhood is a personal property of God the Father. God the Son in the Trinity is not the father of any person in the Trinity as God the Father is the Father of the Son, so Fatherhood does not pertain to God the Son. What pertains to God the Son is being the Son of the Father and begotten by the Father. The personal property of God the Son in the Trinity is Sonship or filiation. Paternity pertains to the Father and procession to the Holy Spirit.
 
Why do you think Aquinas in the Summa said “God neither desires good nor evil to be done” when speaking of predestination? I think he meant that God desires to allow evil sometimes to bring a good out of it. I can’t believe that sentence however is actually in the summa
Yes St. Thomas says that it is good that God permits evil to be done. This seems logical to me because evil is a consequence of free-will and without free-will there can be no expression of love. We are made in the image and likeness of God and since God is love, we must also be at capable of expressing love. Genesis 3:22 “And he [the Lord] said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: …”

You are referring to **S.T. Q19, A9,

**** Objection 3:**Further, that evil should exist, and should not exist, are contradictory opposites. But God does not will that evil should not exist; otherwise, since various evils do exist, God’s will would not always be fulfilled. Therefore God wills that evil should exist.
**I answer that, …

** Now the evil that accompanies one good, is the privation of another good. Never therefore would evil be sought after, not even accidentally, unless the good that accompanies the evil were more desired than the good of which the evil is the privation. Now God wills no good more than He wills His own goodness; yet He wills one good more than another. Hence He in no way wills the evil of sin, which is the privation of right order towards the divine good.
** Reply to Objection 3:**The statements that evil exists, and that evil exists not, are opposed as contradictories; yet the statements that anyone wills evil to exist and that he wills it not to be, are not so opposed; since either is affirmative. God therefore neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills to permit evil to be done; and this is a good.
 
Thomists believe that the relations of the Trinity are part of the nature, so the Son is also Fatherhood itself; that the will and reason in God are exactly the same, but that one proceeds the son and the other the Holy Spirit so that they have different activities as different faculties; that the Father uses His reason to proceed the Son, but the reason is part of the God-nature and thus IS the Son; that God’s knowledge of His being is not discursive or multiplied at all, and yet the Father knows the Son and the Holy Spirit as different Persons, and knows evil as distinct from good.

If at the tope of human reason there can be these logical strange paradox’s, I think it may have been possible for humans to have a moment before their existence in which they are asked whether they want to take the test on earth which will result in salvation or damnation.
The relations of opposition are the persons. The person of the Son is not the relation of Fatherhood.
 
Aquinas says that the relations are the same as the NATURE
Yet there is a real distinction: “as referred to an opposite relation, it [relation] has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition.”

S.T. Q39 A1
For person, as above stated (29, 4), signifies relation as subsisting in the divine nature. But relation as referred to the essence does not differ therefrom really, but only in our way of thinking; while as referred to an opposite relation, it has a real distinction by virtue of that opposition. Thus there are one essence and three persons.
newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm
 
With regard to either humans or God, why is a relationship considered as something, as an entity, separate from simply the father and son as persons?
 
With regard to either humans or God, why is a relationship considered as something, as an entity, separate from simply the father and son as persons?
In reference to God, relationship is not “considered as something, as an entity, separate from simply the father and son as persons?” Rather “a divine person signifies a relation as subsisting” and “paternity is the Father Himself, and filiation is the Son, and procession is the Holy Ghost”.

The Catechism states:252 The Church usesINDENT the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
(II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
(III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.
[/INDENT]S.T. Q28, A1.But when something proceeds from a principle of the same nature, then both the one proceeding and the source of procession, agree in the same order; and then they have real relations to each other. Therefore as the divine processions are in the identity of the same nature, as above explained (27, 2, 4), these relations, according to the divine processions, are necessarily real relations.
S.T. Q29. A4.Now distinction in God is only by relation of origin, as stated above (28, 2, 3), while relation in God is not as an accident in a subject, but is the divine essence itself; and so it is subsistent, for the divine essence subsists. Therefore, as the Godhead is God so the divine paternity is God the Father, Who is a divine person. Therefore a divine person signifies a relation as subsisting. And this is to signify relation by way of substance, and such a relation is a hypostasis subsisting in the divine nature, although in truth that which subsists in the divine nature is the divine nature itself. Thus it is true to say that the name “person” signifies relation directly, and the essence indirectly; not, however, the relation as such, but as expressed by way of a hypostasis. So likewise it signifies directly the essence, and indirectly the relation, inasmuch as the essence is the same as the hypostasis: while in God the hypostasis is expressed as distinct by the relation: and thus relation, as such, enters into the notion of the person indirectly. Thus we can say that this signification of the word “person” was not clearly perceived before it was attacked by heretics. Hence, this word “person” was used just as any other absolute term. But afterwards it was applied to express relation, as it lent itself to that signification, so that this word “person” means relation not only by use and custom, according to the first opinion, but also by force of its own proper signification.
S.T. Q40, A1.For personal properties are the same as the persons because the abstract and the concrete are the same in God; since they are the subsisting persons themselves, as paternity is the Father Himself, and filiation is the Son, and procession is the Holy Ghost. But the non-personal properties are the same as the persons according to the other reason of identity, whereby whatever is attributed to God is His own essence. Thus, common spiration is the same as the person of the Father, and the person of the Son; not that it is one self-subsisting person; but that as there is one essence in the two persons, so also there is one property in the two persons, as above explained (30, 2).
 
"But afterwards it was applied to express relation, as it lent itself to that signification, so that this word ‘person’ means relation not only by use and custom, according to the first opinion, but also by force of its own proper signification. "

“Person” on the other hand means a subsisting consciousness. It can only be such **first **in order to “be a relation”.
 
"But afterwards it was applied to express relation, as it lent itself to that signification, so that this word ‘person’ means relation not only by use and custom, according to the first opinion, but also by force of its own proper signification. "

“Person” on the other hand means a subsisting consciousness. It can only be such **first **in order to “be a relation”.
It not ontological in time, rather an eternal reality.
 
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