It is not a contradiction. The logic is that time and eternity are different. Aquinas wrote (S.T. Q10):The quoted portion is in contradiction to the Christian God being in a timeless state. To do the thing listed that God Must interact with time on a continual basis. This is evident by the simple fact that humanity has existed in time since their beginning. Therefore. to sustain existence, etc, That God must be in constant interaction.
To me, that is simple logic, and the eternal now teaching is…illogical.
John
Aquinas, as in many things of the scientific nature, was incorrect. It is not possible to be outside of time, yet constantly interact with the same. Even deities cannot defy logical consistency.It is not a contradiction. The logic is that time and eternity are different. Aquinas wrote (S.T. Q10):
… time always goes on, yet it is possible to note in time both the beginning and the end, by considering its parts: thus we speak of the beginning and the end of a day or of a year; which cannot be applied to eternity. Still these differences follow upon the essential and primary differences, that eternity is simultaneously whole, but that time is not so.
God does not have real relations with the World (God is simple and lacks all accidents), per Aquinas. The relation of God to creatures are merely conceptual. (S.T. Q13, 7: “I answer that, The names which import relation to creatures are applied to God temporally, and not from eternity.”)Aquinas, as in many things of the scientific nature, was incorrect. It is not possible to be outside of time, yet constantly interact with the same. Even deities cannot defy logical consistency.
John
I’ll simply refer you back to your own quotes:God does not have real relations with the World (God is simple and lacks all accidents), per Aquinas. The relation of God to creatures are merely conceptual. (S.T. Q13, 7: “I answer that, The names which import relation to creatures are applied to God temporally, and not from eternity.”)
All genuine relationships do not involve mutual dependence. To say it is so, is anthropomorphism. There is a real relationship between creatures and the Creator, as shown by Aquinas.
God upholds and sustains creation.
301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:
By the way, temporarily and moment are both descriptions of time.For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.160160 Wis 11:24-26.
Because God is one with His attributes, deciding to send His Son, deciding to create, and responses to good or evil on earth (“He rejoices in good”) are, in using our way of thinking, nothing to His necessary existence.I’ll simply refer you back to your own quotes:
By the way, temporarily and moment are both descriptions of time.
John
Or perhaps, neither sustains anything. Just maybe we are on our own in this world. That’s my belief…naturally, take it for what it’s worth.God only sustains good things in existence. It is contrary to His goodness to sustain the body of the rapist and its victim together during the evil act. The only conclusion is that the Devil has the power to sustain matter when sins are being committed.
I agree that we contribute nothing to the attributes or existence of God. However, if a deity intervenes in any way in this earthly existence, that deity is crossing the plane between eternity and time.Because God is one with His attributes, deciding to send His Son, deciding to create, and responses to good or evil on earth (“He rejoices in good”) are, in using our way of thinking, nothing to His necessary existence.
God is eternal which is not temporal. He has no real relation (does not sustain any real relation) with the world (rather there is a relation of reason – God is of a different order), however mankind is related to God as His effects. God is unchanged by His acting upon the world.I’ll simply refer you back to your own quotes:
By the way, temporarily and moment are both descriptions of time.
John
Makes sense. Thanks.. . . Brian Shanley (Thomist, 59):
. . . When God acts so as to bring creatures into relationship with him, all of the “happening” is located in creation rather than in God.
However, it needs to be said that we are speaking of God’s very decision to become Incarnate; that the idea of His choice in this matter did not put a new idea in the mind of God, because that would alter His nature which is one with its mind. Contingent vs necessary is the same as nothing to something, to our way of thinkingGod is eternal which is not temporal. He has no real relation (does not sustain any real relation) with the world (rather there is a relation of reason – God is of a different order), however mankind is related to God as His effects. God is unchanged by His acting upon the world.
Read Brian Shanley (Thomist, 59):
Aquinas clearly thinks that God is “related” to the world in the sense that he creates, loves, knows, wills, governs, and redeems the world. The denial that God is “really related” to the world does not undermine any of those claims. It simply denies that God’s causal activity, and any relational terms thereby ascribed to him, implies any alteration in his being. When God acts so as to bring creatures into relationship with him, all of the “happening” is located in creation rather than in God.
The person of the Son is eternal and changeless so incarnation is eternally predestined.However, it needs to be said that we are speaking of God’s very decision to become Incarnate; that the idea of His choice in this matter did not put a new idea in the mind of God, because that would alter His nature which is one with its mind. Contingent vs necessary is the same as nothing to something, to our way of thinking
Truly think about the bolded, and what Aquinas had to say. Is it even remotely logical? If a simple human like myself can see the holes in the concept…welll…you know where I am heading.God is eternal which is not temporal. He has no real relation (does not sustain any real relation) with the world (rather there is a relation of reason – God is of a different order), however mankind is related to God as His effects. God is unchanged by His acting upon the world.
Read Brian Shanley (Thomist, 59):
Aquinas clearly thinks that God is “related” to the world in the sense that he creates, loves, knows, wills, governs, and redeems the world. The denial that God is “really related” to the world does not undermine any of those claims. It simply denies that God’s causal activity, and any relational terms thereby ascribed to him, implies any alteration in his being. When God acts so as to bring creatures into relationship with him, all of the “happening” is located in creation rather than in God.
Yes, what St. Thomas has presented is logical. Some may think that St. Thomas Aquinas would not apply the B-Theory (tenseless) of time or similar, but this does not form a proof. The Classic Theology is the God is eternal not in time.Truly think about the bolded, and what Aquinas had to say. Is it even remotely logical? If a simple human like myself can see the holes in the concept…welll…you know where I am heading.
John
You are still not getting what I am saying. God’s decision to become incarnate and also to create are not necessary or part of His nature. But His decision creates a new idea in His mind, the contingent Idea that He had decided to create and also die on the Cross. If God’s intellect is His Himself, then His nature would change from contingent new knowledge of His decisions about us. If you don’t understand this point I am making, you won’t understand my explanation of its difficultty given earlierThe person of the Son is eternal and changeless so incarnation is eternally predestined.
It is not a matter of not understanding it, but one of agreement. God predestined the work of Incarnation to be the remedy of human sin. There is no real decision to incarnate made in time because God is simple and eternal such that relation and essence are not different.You are still not getting what I am saying. God’s decision to become incarnate and also to create are not necessary or part of His nature. But His decision creates a new idea in His mind, the contingent Idea that He had decided to create and also die on the Cross. If God’s intellect is His Himself, then His nature would change from contingent new knowledge of His decisions about us. If you don’t understand this point I am making, you won’t understand my explanation of its difficultty given earlier
Yet the teachings clearly indicate a belief that God interacts with time. If that is not the case, then the whole script was pre-written and we are merely actors on a stage…“full of sound and fury…signifying nothing.” No need for prayer, no need for hope…God is in his eternal now and nothing can change his creation.Yes, what St. Thomas has presented is logical. Some may think that St. Thomas Aquinas would not apply the B-Theory (tenseless) of time or similar, but this does not form a proof. The Classic Theology is the God is eternal not in time.
God acts within creation, but remains perfect, simple, eternal.Yet the teachings clearly indicate a belief that God interacts with time. If that is not the case, then the whole script was pre-written and we are merely actors on a stage…“full of sound and fury…signifying nothing.” No need for prayer, no need for hope…God is in his eternal now and nothing can change his creation.
John
We are not merely actors" the dogma merely is that God have given man free will although predestined.Yet the teachings clearly indicate a belief that God interacts with time. If that is not the case, then the whole script was pre-written and we are merely actors on a stage…“full of sound and fury…signifying nothing.” No need for prayer, no need for hope…God is in his eternal now and nothing can change his creation.
John