God passing over people

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lmelahn I think, and I, are making the distinction between the particular predestination to glory, and the ordering of the application of grace. Although it gives two different meanings to the same word (predestination), Aquinas’s chapter in the Summa on predestination I think can be read this way. I read it all the way through once with Imelahn’s interpretation which he expounded to me, and it made sense
 
The renowned Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P cited the following in trying to show that Aquinas believed the thesis latter expounded by Banez that God directly chooses not to save the non-elect before he considers their demerits: De providentia, Ia, q. 22, a. 2 ad 4.

Do any readers of this thread have that particular text to quote for us?
 
The renowned Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P cited the following in trying to show that Aquinas believed the thesis latter expounded by Banez that God directly chooses not to save the non-elect before he considers their demerits: De providentia, Ia, q. 22, a. 2 ad 4.

Do any readers of this thread have that particular text to quote for us?
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Ia,Question 22. The providence of God
Article 2. Whether everything is subject to the providence of God?
Reply to Objection 4. When it is said that God left man to himself, this does not mean that man is exempt from divine providence; but merely that he has not a prefixed operating force determined to only the one effect; as in the case of natural things, which are only acted upon as though directed by another towards an end; and do not act of themselves, as if they directed themselves towards an end, like rational creatures, through the possession of free will, by which these are able to take counsel and make a choice. Hence it is significantly said: “In the hand of his own counsel.” But since the very act of free will is traced to God as to a cause, it necessarily follows that everything happening from the exercise of free will must be subject to divine providence. For human providence is included under the providence of God, as a particular under a universal cause. God, however, extends His providence over the just in a certain more excellent way than over the wicked; inasmuch as He prevents anything happening which would impede their final salvation. For “to them that love God, all things work together unto good” (Romans 8:28). But from the fact that He does not restrain the wicked from the evil of sin, He is said to abandon them: not that He altogether withdraws His providence from them; otherwise they would return to nothing, if they were not preserved in existence by His providence. This was the reason that had weight with Tully, who withdrew from the care of divine providence human affairs concerning which we take counsel.
 
The logic actually makes sense to me, the problem I have is that endless punishment is the default outcome of all human life ,with salvation as the “special exception for a few.” If the default outcome of all human life were simply death or permanent cessation of existence, then I think I am OK with God arbitrarily choosing some for eternal life and “passing over” others. I would be fine if God chooses to “pass over” me and let me die. I consider it a gift that I lived at all. Whatever life I have been given is enough for me, and I am very grateful. But, what doesn’t seem fair is to call me into existence just so I can be tormented endlessly! :eek: If I knew that would be the outcome, I would never have consented to be born. Of course, this is impossible, but nonetheless if this is how existence really is, then I wish I had never been born. Is that so unfounded? I sometimes wonder if others think similarly.
I agree totally with your final statement. If I believed that my life was was foreordained in any fashion, by any power, I too would have chosen non-existence. Fortunately, I do not believe in a master manipulator as creator. We manage our own existence for how ever long it may last.

John
 
The renowned Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P cited the following in trying to show that Aquinas believed the thesis latter expounded by Banez that God directly chooses not to save the non-elect before he considers their demerits: De providentia, Ia, q. 22, a. 2 ad 4.

Do any readers of this thread have that particular text to quote for us?
The citation is for the corresponding section of the Summa theologiae, as Vico points out.
 
lmelahn I think, and I, are making the distinction between the particular predestination to glory, and the ordering of the application of grace. Although it gives two different meanings to the same word (predestination), Aquinas’s chapter in the Summa on predestination I think can be read this way. I read it all the way through once with Imelahn’s interpretation which he expounded to me, and it made sense
I think it helps to see how grace “works” for Aquinas; that can clear up problems regarding predestination (or its lack thereof).

(1) First of all, what is grace? The term itself can refer to any gratuitous gift from God, but most properly it refers to those gifts that render a person pleasing to God: gratia gratum faciens (grace that renders a person pleasing).

God can give us a punctual “help” (auxilium) that will help turn us to Him; that kind is called “actual grace.” If we accept His help and turn to Him (in Baptism or after Reconciliation), then the Holy Trinity dwells within us in a habitual way, and that indwelling constitutes habitual or sanctifying grace.

Note that habitual grace differs only in degree to heavenly glory (in which the indwelling in the soul is perfected to Beatific Vision). Hence possessing sanctifying grace at death is the definitive condicio sine qua non for being saved.

So far, all the schools are in agreement, I think.

(2) Now the question is, how does actual grace move the human will?

No one can receive sanctifying grace without the intervention of God—without an actual grace, or many actual graces, to bring it about. Moreover, for conscious, adult human beings, it can only happen with the consent of the will. Again, so far, everyone is in agreement.

What is the will? Together with the intellect, it is a “power” or faculty that emanates from the soul (Ia qq. 77-78 & 82); it is an accident, a “quality” that inheres in the soul. Hence, the will is intermediate between the person, considered as a spiritual substance, and the action or operation that it produces. And the will’s specific function is to be the rational appetite: that is, to desire and, if possible, to unite the soul to what the intellect presents to it as good.

It is very important to understand that the will cannot move unless something good—or at least something with a good aspect to it—is presented to it.

Now, if the good presented to the will is infinite (which can only be God Himself, when He reveals Himself face-to-face), the will is constrained to unite to that good—not by force, but by compelling desire. (Indeed, by nature the will cannot be forced, not even by God, for the simple reason that forcing it would be a kind of evil, and the will can only be moved by something good.)

All other goods—that is, finite goods—the will is capable of accepting or rejecting.

Actual graces, therefore, move the will by presenting to it something good. It is, clearly, a supernatural good that no creature can provide, but the will tends toward it in the normal way. Since it is not the infinitely intense good of the Beatific Vision, the will is still free to accept or reject it.

(3) At this point, in my opinion, both Bañez and Molina start to stray from their master Aquinas.

They both seem to assume that the very operation (actions) of the will requires a sort of special creation by God. (Aquinas, on the other hand, teaches that God creates the will’s operation through the mediation of the substance. A faculty’s operation flows from the substance, and ultimately from its act of being, as water flows from a fountain.)

Hence for them, an actual grace (one that leads to conversion, anyway) is also a sort of specially created action of the will.

Again, we all agree that when God acts, His action always produces the intended effect.

Given Bañez’ understanding of how the will’s operation is constituted, it is not surprising the he thought that actual graces always result in conversion (actual grace is always efficacious, in his terminology), and that God must somehow refrain from sending those graces in people who are condemned. (This is, in essence, your question, thinkandmull: why does God pass some people over?)

Molina—without changing Bañez’ presuppositions about the operation of the will—tried to temper Bañez by saying that no, God send graces that are “sufficient” for conversion, and they only become “efficacious” when the person makes an act of the will accepting them.

And since—following their logic—God’s actions always bring about their effect, this opens up the whole question of how God “knows” whether to send “sufficient” or “efficacious” grace, hence the problem of the future conditionals.

In reality, if we realize that the effect of actual grace is to empower the will—not to act on the will’s behalf, as Bañez and Molina thought—the problem disappears.
 
I think it helps to see how grace “works” for Aquinas; that can clear up problems regarding predestination (or its lack thereof).

(1) First of all, what is grace? The term itself can refer to any gratuitous gift from God, but most properly it refers to those gifts that render a person pleasing to God: gratia gratum faciens (grace that renders a person pleasing).

God can give us a punctual “help” (auxilium) that will help turn us to Him; that kind is called “actual grace.” If we accept His help and turn to Him (in Baptism or after Reconciliation), then the Holy Trinity dwells within us in a habitual way, and that indwelling constitutes habitual or sanctifying grace.

Note that habitual grace differs only in degree to heavenly glory (in which the indwelling in the soul is perfected to Beatific Vision). Hence possessing sanctifying grace at death is the definitive condicio sine qua non for being saved.

So far, all the schools are in agreement, I think.

(2) Now the question is, how does actual grace move the human will?

No one can receive sanctifying grace without the intervention of God—without an actual grace, or many actual graces, to bring it about. Moreover, for conscious, adult human beings, it can only happen with the consent of the will. Again, so far, everyone is in agreement.

What is the will? Together with the intellect, it is a “power” or faculty that emanates from the soul (Ia qq. 77-78 & 82); it is an accident, a “quality” that inheres in the soul. Hence, the will is intermediate between the person, considered as a spiritual substance, and the action or operation that it produces. And the will’s specific function is to be the rational appetite: that is, to desire and, if possible, to unite the soul to what the intellect presents to it as good.

It is very important to understand that the will cannot move unless something good—or at least something with a good aspect to it—is presented to it.

Now, if the good presented to the will is infinite (which can only be God Himself, when He reveals Himself face-to-face), the will is constrained to unite to that good—not by force, but by compelling desire. (Indeed, by nature the will cannot be forced, not even by God, for the simple reason that forcing it would be a kind of evil, and the will can only be moved by something good.)

All other goods—that is, finite goods—the will is capable of accepting or rejecting.

Actual graces, therefore, move the will by presenting to it something good. It is, clearly, a supernatural good that no creature can provide, but the will tends toward it in the normal way. Since it is not the infinitely intense good of the Beatific Vision, the will is still free to accept or reject it.

(3) At this point, in my opinion, both Bañez and Molina start to stray from their master Aquinas.

They both seem to assume that the very operation (actions) of the will requires a sort of special creation by God. (Aquinas, on the other hand, teaches that God creates the will’s operation through the mediation of the substance. A faculty’s operation flows from the substance, and ultimately from its act of being, as water flows from a fountain.)

Hence for them, an actual grace (one that leads to conversion, anyway) is also a sort of specially created action of the will.

Again, we all agree that when God acts, His action always produces the intended effect.

Given Bañez’ understanding of how the will’s operation is constituted, it is not surprising the he thought that actual graces always result in conversion (actual grace is always efficacious, in his terminology), and that God must somehow refrain from sending those graces in people who are condemned. (This is, in essence, your question, thinkandmull: why does God pass some people over?)

Molina—without changing Bañez’ presuppositions about the operation of the will—tried to temper Bañez by saying that no, God send graces that are “sufficient” for conversion, and they only become “efficacious” when the person makes an act of the will accepting them.

And since—following their logic—God’s actions always bring about their effect, this opens up the whole question of how God “knows” whether to send “sufficient” or “efficacious” grace, hence the problem of the future conditionals.

In reality, if we realize that the effect of actual grace is to empower the will—not to act on the will’s behalf, as Bañez and Molina thought—the problem disappears.
I really like this post.
 
I now interpret Aquinas statement that God"prevents anything happening which would impede their final salvation" in a non-strict sense. He continues by saying
“For ‘to them that love God, all things work together unto good’”.

“But from the fact that He does not restrain the wicked from the evil of sin, He is said to abandon them”. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean He won’t latter give His great graces to them latter in their travel of life.

For me, I just don’t understand the idea of a God who could but deliberately won save anyone because He has some greater non-personal good in mind. When you look at a baby’s face, can’t you/we see that it should be given every chance to find its Father in heaven?
 
The Old Catholic Encyclopedia says that Calvin “preserves the spontaneity of its (the will) unfree acts”. I read today that when the part of the spine connecting to the head of a cat was severed partially, the cat would still groom itself and run around, but it didn’t look spontaneous. So I think Calvin was saying that man accepts God’s grace like that, or maybe even like a toddler tries to run to its mom. Calvinists reject Trent however, which phrases its condemnation of that the will “nowise co-**operates **towards disposing **and preparing itself **for obtaining the grace of Justification”. So I see how my earlier difficulty is cleared up. Cool.
 
And again: “Tradition, as Calvin candidly admits (Instit., II, 3, 10), regards freedom of will and the efficacy of grace not as antagonistic principles, but as harmonious factors.”

Both quotes from newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

We should keep their idea (of what we would probably regard as pre-conscience free will) in mind when trying to talk to a Calvinist
 
lmelahn and I have conversed before about rigid views of efficacious grace. When Augustine says “if God wished to teach those whom the word of the cross is foolishness so that they might come to Christ, undoubtedly they too would have come”, he may have meant this merely in a hopeful sense.
I don’t think he meant it in the hopeful sense. After all, he writes soon after, “Therefore, perish the thought that anyone does not come who has heard from the Father and has learned.”
 
The Old Catholic Encyclopedia says that Calvin “preserves the spontaneity of its (the will) unfree acts”. I read today that when the part of the spine connecting to the head of a cat was severed partially, the cat would still groom itself and run around, but it didn’t look spontaneous. So I think Calvin was saying that man accepts God’s grace like that, or maybe even like a toddler tries to run to its mom. Calvinists reject Trent however, which phrases its condemnation of that the will “nowise co-**operates **towards disposing **and preparing itself **for obtaining the grace of Justification”. So I see how my earlier difficulty is cleared up. Cool.
It is very simple… any form of predestination is utterly incompatible with free will. No matter how many revelations, supernatural powers, etc. that is simple logic. If I was created for a final destination…there is no free will.

John
 
I now interpret Aquinas statement that God"prevents anything happening which would impede their final salvation" in a non-strict sense. He continues by saying
“For ‘to them that love God, all things work together unto good’”.

“But from the fact that He does not restrain the wicked from the evil of sin, He is said to abandon them”. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean He won’t latter give His great graces to them latter in their travel of life.

For me, I just don’t understand the idea of a God who could but deliberately won[t] save anyone because He has some greater non-personal good in mind. When you look at a baby’s face, can’t you/we see that it should be given every chance to find its Father in heaven?
Everything is not revealed. It those cases a definitive statement cannot be made, rather speculation it done.
 
It is very simple… any form of predestination is utterly incompatible with free will. No matter how many revelations, supernatural powers, etc. that is simple logic. If I was created for a final destination…there is no free will.

John
You just haven’t had deeper spiritual thoughts yet in your journey
 
“Therefore, perish the thought that anyone does not come who has heard from the Father and has learned.” Perish the thought because it would be very sinful
 
  1. I disagree with the Old Catholic Encyclopedia when it says that Banez Thomism accepts the experiences of people who say it is God who causes them to act one way or another. Internally, a person should only be able to experience the free will, not (if) God’s grace having the nature of being capable of infallibly converting the person. Otherwise you would be justifying the spiritual experience of a Calvinist who said that he didn’t fully use free will when he accepted Christ.
This however shows how the issue of predestination has to do with the spiritual experiences of people, very personal things.

Personally, I wouldn’t go to church if the God there was more concerned with an abstract act of separating good from bad instead of giving good to every human
 
Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t St Augustine spoke of something like the appealing invitation?
 
The Old Catholic Encyclopedia said that the Jesuits rejected the *Catechism of Trent’s *take on efficacious grace. I’d like to see that quote from that Catechism. Pope Paul V on 5 September, 1607 and 1 December, 1611 allowed the dissent

Also, from Augustine till modern times the majority of Catholics believed God wanted the salvation of all but did not want that most of all; instead, God preferred there to be elect AND damned for some vague good that results.
 
  1. I disagree with the Old Catholic Encyclopedia when it says that Banez Thomism accepts the experiences of people who say it is God who causes them to act one way or another. Internally, a person should only be able to experience the free will, not (if) God’s grace having the nature of being capable of infallibly converting the person. Otherwise you would be justifying the spiritual experience of a Calvinist who said that he didn’t fully use free will when he accepted Christ.
This however shows how the issue of predestination has to do with the spiritual experiences of people, very personal things.

Personally, I wouldn’t go to church if the God there was more concerned with an abstract act of separating good from bad instead of giving good to every human
St. Thomas Aquinas employs soft determinism so is a compatibilist: human beings are free in their actions but are determined to act by God.
 
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