God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[RobbyS]

God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity. So how can anyone claim Mary is sinless when God has clearly told us she is part of sinful humanity. Yes Jesus was part of sinful humanity but He was sinless and we know this because God has told us so in His written word.

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No, Paul told us what we know that all have sinned. That is a bit like saying that all are in need of salvation. But not all have sinned in equal measure. Some are great sinners; others, not so . One must concede, I think, that Mary was not a great sinner given her proximity to the Lord. So of what sin was Mary guilty?The Bible does not say.

Original sin is the usual suspect, but that is not the same as actual sin. As to original since, he ancient tradition of the Church is that Mary is the new Eve, that she is God’select from all ages.As Tennyson put it, Our tainted nature’s solitary boast. Elect, of course, in a way that no other human being was elect. For she is the Mother of the Lord, with all this implies. We believe that God Himself “became flesh.” Since God does not “become” but “is” then the conception in her womb is hardly to be conceived by our minds. It was an act of creation, but as it was not rhe creation of a man but of God’s entry into time in a manner different from the ordinary conception of a men/woman,as when God in his glory came into the Tabernacle in the Desert. That tabernacle was, we read, built by human hands but according to the exact specific of God. so as to be fit for his presence. Mary, is therefore, the living Holy of Holies, and from the moment of her conception, a place where God dwels… amd God does not dwell where there is sin. The modern Protestant view seems to be that Mary was purifed at the time of the Annunciation, and that after his birth more or less elpsed back into the ordinary. But Mary was chosen not merely to give birth to the Savior but to nurture him and to become his first and truest disciple. Has anyone known the Lord better than she? Does the Lord “owe” anyone as much as he owes her? Can we do anything excerpt to aspire the sort of love that she gave and gives him?

 

[Adsum_Domini]

Hello all,

To be honest with you, I don’t recall any words in the Bible that say The Blessed Virgin Mary was sinless. Although I do recall the first few hundred years, there was no Bible and the early Christians were obviously guided by the Holy Spirit and tradition as they celebrated and lived their faith. I believe it was the Holy Spirit and tradition that guided the council, hundreds of years after the last Apostle of Christ died, to choose the correct books that would become the Bible. Obviously, as Christ promised he would never leave us (the believers) and from the the example of the creation of the Bible itself, the Holy Spirit has guided the faithful. Now, please stop using “where is that in the Bible?” You only disgrace the early Christians who paved the way for “you” with their sweat and blood who have never heard of the Bible.

Obviously, our God above, is the creator of all things, possible and impossible! Impossible to you it may seem, but yes in His infinite wisdom and power, I believe (because I would not dare think less of God by not doing so) that he can create a sinless vessel, worthy enough to carry another sinless vessel, His own son, our Lord Jesus Christ. If He chooses that The Blessed Mother’s sinless nature to be revealed some place rather than the Bible, why not - He obviously has reasons for doing things - we do not Know His ways!

Obviously, this is just another poor attempt to prove our beliefs are wrong. It sad to see in your attempt you have to use the Mother of our Lord. Obviously, even in scripture, The Blessed Virgin played a very important role in the life of our Lord. She was chosen by God to bear His Son. It was because of her intervention that the Lord displayed his first public miracle. Then in the end, our Lord, dying on the cross, had one last instruction, he gave the care of His Mother to His disciple -“Women, he is your son.” And He said to this disciple, “She is your Mother.”- So tell me, why in the world, could She not intervene for me!? Why could she not be my Mother, and why couldn’t I be in her care?! shame shame shame, The Blessed Mother is probably praying for you before Christ himself and this is how you treat her.

Yes, you are very correct to say the Bible does not directly say that The Blessed Virgin was not of sin. It doesn’t say anything about sola scriptura as well. Only a hypocrite would say and think otherwise and you know the Lord doesn’t like hypocrites.

 

[lyrikal]

Now how did you know about God being present in the Holy of Holies and Aaron entering into the Holy of Holies? Of course you know this because God has clearly told us these things in His written word just like He has told us Jesus would be born of a virgin and that all of humanity is sinful.

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Wow! Because of your blindness and ignorance to what everyone keeps telling you and you keep ignoring, you have just strengthened my Catholic Faith. Thank you brother!

 

[Randy_Carson]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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Answering the Question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The Evangelical starts with the assumption that scripture existed first and that tradition was slowly and incrementally added to it as time progressed. However, the original deposit of faith was given to the Apostles years before Scripture was ever penned. The Church was founded on this truth from Christ. Some of this deposit was then written in Scripture, some was scrupulously passed from bishop to bishop as oral tradition, and some was later clarified as dogma by the agreement of the bishops in the councils of the Church.

These sources, of course, should be expected not to contradict each other. If the Church teaches something as true, it is justifiable to check that it is not contradicted by Scripture. But if the Church teaches something and the Bible is silent or ambiguous, that does not mean the teaching is any less truly a part of the original deposit of faith given the Apostles. The focus must shift from what is biblical to what is true. The first is always contained in the second, but all of the second is not necessarily contained in the first.

When an Evangelical asks, “Where is that doctrine in the Bible?”, the correct response is “First show me from Scripture why you believe all Christian doctrines must be in the Bible.” It can be frustrating for Evangelicals to confront this issue, but it is important for them to understand the lack of biblical basis for their question. Truth is at issue here.

Adapted from Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie, pp.61-62.

 

[Thing]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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Fine, you want God to be born of a sinful virgin.

 

[RNRobert]

Thanks for the heads up, but he certainly isn’t the first troll I’ve encountered discussing things like this. Usually once outnumbered enough, they give up. However I figured this wasn’t the case. But I figure that I’m not arguing for him, but for those who simply read the topics. Then hopefully his posts won’t affect their faith since they can see that they are answered.

Pax

Conall Cernach

I think all you can do with people like that is be patient when talking with him and pray for him. Many current Catholics (including myself) were like him at one time.

 

[guanophore]

Fine, you want God to be born of a sinful virgin.

I think this is a very human and understandible desire, and it is our vanity that wants to make it so. All of us want Christ to be “born” in us, and aware of our unworthiness, still aspire to be fit vessels for His presence. However, instead of accepting God’s solution as Mary did (rejoice in God our saviour) the human tendency is to somehow bend His plan to bring down that which He has exalted.

 

[Good_Fella]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

We must consider that in its primary context the prophecy of Isaiah couldn’t have been written “the sinless virgin”.

Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not,
nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.
Wisdom 1, 4

PAX :irish2:

 

[Good_Fella]

And all generations shall call me blessed.
(said by Mary)

I call her blessed.

Mary continues by explaining why she shall be called blessed by all future generations:

“For the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”

Our Blessed Mother is speaking in the plural: “great things”. She was not only blessed for being chosen to be the mother of God’s Only-begotten Son. These great things God did for her include her Immaculate Conception and glorious Assumption into heaven. All these other great things God graced Mary with rest on the singular privilege of her Divine Maternity.

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
My spirit rejoices in God my saviour.”

Mary’s soul proclaims the glory of God’s grace which has sanctified her soul and has made it sinless by the gracious power of the Holy Spirit. Her spirit “is” saved. A sinful person does not confidently declare: “I am saved.” Mary was blessed in being sinless by the efficacious grace of God.

PAX :harp:

 

[ConallCernach]

I think all you can do with people like that is be patient when talking with him and pray for him. Many current Catholics (including myself) were like him at one time.

Understandable of course, I have a debate period where I’m not proud of. =p
It ended quickly though.

But conversion of ideas comes only through the Spirit, he needs prayers.

Pax

 

[RosaryFan]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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This thread is now pretty long and I’m not going to read all of the responses, I just want to put my two cents in. Could you EVER imagine God allowing His precious Son to enter a human body in any condition other than sinless?? Common sense rules that Mary MUST be sinless. Free from sin and free from decay in any and all forms. If God would not allow decay to touch her body after she bore Christ (Assumption into Heaven) then how could God allow sin to touch her body before or during her pregnancy? Nor could sin touch her in the years that she was raising, teaching, instructing our Lord as He grew to manhood.

Concupiscence (our tendency toward sin) would have been a great hurdle for someone who was raising the Christ. I think God can manage to spare her from that. She needed all the graces possible for her Herculean role.

 

[Allan_M]

Hi all, I’m one of the lurkers mentioned earlier. You spoke of the Arch angel’s words to our Blessed Mother but if you’re interpretation of scripter is correct emeraldisle and Mother Mary is sinful why did he say “hail Mary”, not hello Mary, but Hail Mary, his words implies Her superiority and also compare in scripter the differance between how Mary was told of the impendig birth and how St.Elisibeth was told,that’s right she was’t told it was her husband, and he was made mute for his doubts, She was made sinless for the purpose she served, and is still serving. Hail Mary said the Arch angel, He is of a higher order than any human so why does he honor OUR Blessed Mother.
Have you ever prayed about this, try it with a open heart, and you might find that you don’t know everything about God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Blessed Virgin, and God’s devine economy.

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi all, I’m one of the lurkers mentioned earlier. You spoke of the Arch angel’s words to our Blessed Mother but if you’re interpretation of scripter is correct emeraldisle and Mother Mary is sinful why did he say “hail Mary”, not hello Mary, but Hail Mary, his words implies Her superiority and also compare in scripter the differance between how Mary was told of the impendig birth and how St.Elisibeth was told,that’s right she was’t told it was her husband, and he was made mute for his doubts, She was made sinless for the purpose she served, and is still serving. Hail Mary said the Arch angel, He is of a higher order than any human so why does he honor OUR Blessed Mother.
Have you ever prayed about this, try it with a open heart, and you might find that you don’t know everything about God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Blessed Virgin, and God’s devine economy.

Actually, the angel Gabriel refrained from addressing Mary by calling her name. He identified her by her spiritual condition: “Hail, full of grace,” distinguishing her - “most blessed among women” - from the rest of the human race.

PAX :harp:

 

[VociMike]

Ive read all the RCC arguments against Gods Truth that all of humanity is sinful. Ive yet to see any evidence from Gods written word that proves that Mary was sinless. However there is plenty of evidence that proves Mary was a human and so she was part of sinful humanity.

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Your continuing use of the term “God’s written word” destroys your own argument, since it suggests that you acknowledge that God’s word is not identical with God’s written word. And that is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. God’s word (His revelation to mankind) encompasses both his written word (scripture) and his unwritten word (Sacred Tradition). Why would you insist on limiting yourself to part of God’s word rather than the totality of His word? What sense does that make?

Oh, and I almost forgot, but even limiting your question to God’s written word, you are incorrect. Mary’s sinlessness is established in a single Greek word, Kecharitomene.

 

[Allan_M]

Actually, the angel Gabriel refrained from addressing Mary by calling her name. He identified her by her spiritual condition: “Hail, full of grace,” distinguishing her - “most blessed among women” - from the rest of the human race.

PAX :harp:

Good Fella you miss the point i’m trying to convey, He said HAIL, HAIL, Do you understand, the Arch angel is a higher form of creation than humans and yet He addresses Her with te opener HAIL.

 

[Good_Fella]

I understand your point, and it’s an excellent one that is noteworthy, but you quoted the angel as adressing Mary by her given name. The fact that he didn’t is extremely significant as well.

"Hail, Caesar! " is small in comparision.

 

[Good_Fella]

I understand your point, and it’s an excellent one that is noteworthy, but you quoted the angel as adressing Mary by her given name. The fact that he didn’t is extremely significant as well.

"Hail, Caesar! " is small in comparision.

The angel Gabriel was not only acknowledging Mary’s divine maternal status which would give rise to his condecension. Protestants argue otherwise. And here they contradict themselves by denying Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[RosaryFan]

I thought “Hail” simply meant “hello” or “greetings”.

 

[as-a-child]

Yes hail is a salutation, but no other person was ever greeted this way. The first thing angels usually say is “Fear not” or “arise”.
What’s significant is that we don’t hear that Mary bowed down before the angel in fear. Only sinful creatures would do that

Actually you could argue that Gabriel is addressing her by her real name, not just the name here parents gave her.

remember the white stone that all will be given by God which holds our true name.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him awhitestone, and in thestone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

So mary’s womb is the field were the hidden manna has grown, becauses you want a good field to till so you can have a bountiful harvest.

 

[redrosetea]

You are nor using reason …Christ inherited his DNA from Mary…original sin is passed to us by our parents…If Mary had original sin, Jesus would have had it too…He needed a pure vessel to be his mother, not one that was tainted by Adam and Eve…Christ was God’s rescue plan for human kind…he had to be free from sin…Unless His mother was also , he would have never been sinless