God the dictator or god the father?

[LVCIVS_DEI]

I think my greatest problem with the more so called “conservative” point of view is that everything is about Devine authority.
Sin is going against gods will, and if we sin to much we go to hell.
Not because these things are bad for us or others, no, its only because it goes against Gods will that we are punished.
It makes God seem like a north Korean dictator.

Some may say that its still our choice, but choosing between doing as God commands and being tortured for eternity is not really a choice.
Its still obey or perish, do/think as i say or be killed/tortured just like most oppressive nations of the world.

I believe that only the most evil go to hell, and not innocent people, let alone children.
Because if God really does send toddlers to an eternity of pain and torture i want NOTHING to do with him anymore.

I don’t believe God is like that but i frightens me that some do and frankly i find it damaging to the church overall, and i hope i am wrong and that most do NOT believe this.

I certainly never will.

I strongly believe it would/will only drive people away, apart from the fact that my conscience says its not the truth.

Blessings to all.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Can you explain what is ‘conservative’ about that point of view?

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Can you explain what is ‘conservative’ about that point of view?

Well most ‘‘conservatives’’’ talk on and on about obeying God to avoid hell.
And thats not what the priests in my country teach.

And my point is its WRONG.

PS: A ‘‘conservative’’ aux bishop on my city once said:
“There are no modern catholics or conservative catholics, only catholics and non catholics”

 

[Usagi]

I’m with you, though thankfully I don’t see a lot of people espousing the pure “authority” view you cite. Actually, I mostly see the argument from nonbelievers with a very tyrannical idea of God, though I expect many got that from an unfortunate Christian upbringing.

God doesn’t make arbitrary rules for the sake of being obeyed. Sin hurts – either the sinner, or someone else, or the universe in general.

Even the commands to worship God and sacrifice to Him are not a matter of pleasing His vanity (He doesn’t have any), but because it is good for us to recognize that we are not the be-all and end-all of the universe and that everything good that we have is a gift to be shared. Of course, we should simultaneously realize that, despite our relative smallness, we are important enough to God Himself that He went through a great deal to have us with Him for eternity.

Usagi

 

[fhansen]

I think my greatest problem with the more so called “conservative” point of view is that everything is about Devine authority.
Sin is going against gods will, and if we sin to much we go to hell.
Not because these things are bad for us or others, no, its only because it goes against Gods will that we are punished.
It makes God seem like a north Korean dictator.

Some may say that its still our choice, but choosing between doing as God commands and being tortured for eternity is not really a choice.
Its still obey or perish, do/think as i say or be killed/tortured just like most oppressive nations of the world.

I believe that only the most evil go to hell, and not innocent people, let alone children.
Because if God really does send toddlers to an eternity of pain and torture i want NOTHING to do with him anymore.

I don’t believe God is like that but i frightens me that some do and frankly i find it damaging to the church overall, and i hope i am wrong and that most do NOT believe this.

I certainly never will.

I strongly believe it would/will only drive people away, apart from the fact that my conscience says its not the truth.

Blessings to all.

God has the right to demand that righteousness and justice are done in His universe. His wisdom is perfect. But His righteousness and justice are based on love to begin with, so His demands are only that we love. And He’s patient and kind in drawing us into this life of love, waiting for us to will it as He does, even going to the extreme of suffering an excruciatingly painful passion and death in order to prove how much He loves us-and how crucial love is for the wholeness and justice of His creation, without forcing us to obey IOW. Hell is simply the “place” or state for those who prefer it to love; a *self-created *, self-willed state.

 

[SighGuy]

Sin is going against gods will, and if we sin to much we go to hell.
Not because these things are bad for us or others, no, its only because it goes against Gods will that we are punished.

Your understanding of sin is defective. God is good, and God alone. When we sin, we pervert the beauty of Creation. We destroy its harmony, its dignity, and that of others and of ourselves. Every single sin that you can commit is bad for us and for others. The reason skipping Mass is a sin is not because it rails against the arbitrary laws of a vengeful God. It’s because it fosters within us a disposition of disorder, non-obedience. This might not sound bad, but if you can see into the future, then you can see the world of ramifications things begin to have.

Do you have children? If you do, try putting them to bed. They’ll wail and scream bloody murder. They’ll hate you. You’re a terrible father or mother. Why can’t you understand that they just want to stay up? It’s not hurting anyone. The problem is, they can’t understand that it is hurting them, because they won’t be happy tomorrow if they didn’t get enough sleep, and if there’s no discipline in their lives they’re more likely to turn out poorly.

It’s the same principle at play. God is so far above us that he sees things you or I can’t. The failure on the part of a human to understand why this or that sin is actually evil, and not just arbitrarily bad, is analogous to the failure of a toddler to comprehend the rules he is subject to.

Some may say that its still our choice, but choosing between doing as God commands and being tortured for eternity is not really a choice.
Its still obey or perish, do/think as i say or be killed/tortured just like most oppressive nations of the world.

Modifying your understanding of sin will hopefully help you, here. It’s not “obey or perish,” it’s “obey or go your own way.” Your way will lead you to death and suffering. Only God is wise enough to know what is best. You’re not being tortured by God, in Hell. When you’re in Hell, you’re saying “I don’t need God, I don’t want him, I don’t owe him anything!” and you’re torturing yourself. The fact of the matter is, we need God, we’re designed that way. The more we owe him, the happier we become. Our debts are our joys. The demons are left without debt to God (other than their own existence) and they are miserable. The saints owe God infinitely more, and they are infinitely more happy.

Hell is not a place where God throws those who made him mad. “So far as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways above your ways.” It would not benefit you anything if St. Peter stood at the gates and let you sneak inside although you didn’t “pay your dues.” Because a soul who chooses his or her own way over God’s way is destined to go where that road takes them.

Look, if God has a highway to the Heavenly Jerusalem and you refuse to take it, but take instead your own road, how is it God’s fault that you didn’t arrive? He can’t make your road go to Jerusalem.

I believe that only the most evil go to hell, and not innocent people, let alone children.
Because if God really does send toddlers to an eternity of pain and torture i want NOTHING to do with him anymore.

Where are you getting this about God sending toddlers to pain and suffering…?? Has anyone ever taught that? The Church leaves the fate of unbaptized children up to the mercy of God. Even those who, in the past, played around with Limbo and said “probably they just go to Limbo,” Limbo itself is not a place of suffering and torment. It is a place of natural happiness, only denying the supernatural happiness of Heaven (which man is not entitled to anyways, since it is a supernatural end, not a natural one)

Who knows who’s going to Heaven and to Hell? But many that you think are Hell-bound may be for Heaven, and many you think are Heaven-bound could be for Hell. We don’t know. At the end of the day, only those willing to follow God can achieve greatness, and those who prefer to follow themselves will see where that will take them.

Blessings to all.

To you also.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

God has the right to demand that righteousness and justice are done in His universe. His wisdom is perfect. But His righteousness and justice are based on love to begin with, so His demands are only that we love. And He’s patient and kind in drawing us into this life of love, waiting for us to will it as He does, even going to the extreme of suffering an excruciatingly painful passion and death in order to prove how much He loves us-and how crucial love is for the wholeness and justice of His creation, without forcing us to obey IOW. Hell is simply the “place” or state for those who prefer it to love; a *self-created *, self-willed state.

No loving God could ever send somebody to be tormented forver for not worshiping him.
You sound more like a prior of the ori from stargate sg-1 than as a catholic.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Well most ‘‘conservatives’’’ talk on and on about obeying God to avoid hell.
And thats not what the priests in my country teach.

And my point is its WRONG.

PS: A ‘‘conservative’’ aux bishop on my city once said:
“There are no modern catholics or conservative catholics, only catholics and non catholics”

While I don’t disagree that the portrayal of a God Who shoots lightning from His eyes at the first sign of disobedience does drive people from the church, I think we need to define ‘conservative’ for the sake of this discussion.

I see that you are not US based. So there may be a point-of-view difference. To me, ‘conservative’ means prudent, just, honorable…the kind of men who wrote our Constitution.

These men did not portray God as a monster.

So how to proceed from here? Can mortal sin be (rightly) condemned, while still caring for the sinner?

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Your understanding of sin is defective. God is good, and God alone. When we sin, we pervert the beauty of Creation. We destroy its harmony, its dignity, and that of others and of ourselves. Every single sin that you can commit is bad for us and for others. The reason skipping Mass is a sin is not because it rails against the arbitrary laws of a vengeful God. It’s because it fosters within us a disposition of disorder, non-obedience. This might not sound bad, but if you can see into the future, then you can see the world of ramifications things begin to have.

Do you have children? If you do, try putting them to bed. They’ll wail and scream bloody murder. They’ll hate you. You’re a terrible father or mother. Why can’t you understand that they just want to stay up? It’s not hurting anyone. The problem is, they can’t understand that it is hurting them, because they won’t be happy tomorrow if they didn’t get enough sleep, and if there’s no discipline in their lives they’re more likely to turn out poorly.

It’s the same principle at play. God is so far above us that he sees things you or I can’t. The failure on the part of a human to understand why this or that sin is actually evil, and not just arbitrarily bad, is analogous to the failure of a toddler to comprehend the rules he is subject to.

Modifying your understanding of sin will hopefully help you, here. It’s not “obey or perish,” it’s “obey or go your own way.” Your way will lead you to death and suffering. Only God is wise enough to know what is best. You’re not being tortured by God, in Hell. When you’re in Hell, you’re saying “I don’t need God, I don’t want him, I don’t owe him anything!” and you’re torturing yourself. The fact of the matter is, we need God, we’re designed that way. The more we owe him, the happier we become. Our debts are our joys. The demons are left without debt to God (other than their own existence) and they are miserable. The saints owe God infinitely more, and they are infinitely more happy.

Hell is not a place where God throws those who made him mad. “So far as the heavens are above the earth, so are my ways above your ways.” It would not benefit you anything if St. Peter stood at the gates and let you sneak inside although you didn’t “pay your dues.” Because a soul who chooses his or her own way over God’s way is destined to go where that road takes them.

Look, if God has a highway to the Heavenly Jerusalem and you refuse to take it, but take instead your own road, how is it God’s fault that you didn’t arrive? He can’t make your road go to Jerusalem.

Where are you getting this about God sending toddlers to pain and suffering…?? Has anyone ever taught that? The Church leaves the fate of unbaptized children up to the mercy of God. Even those who, in the past, played around with Limbo and said “probably they just go to Limbo,” Limbo itself is not a place of suffering and torment. It is a place of natural happiness, only denying the supernatural happiness of Heaven (which man is not entitled to anyways, since it is a supernatural end, not a natural one)

Who knows who’s going to Heaven and to Hell? But many that you think are Hell-bound may be for Heaven, and many you think are Heaven-bound could be for Hell. We don’t know. At the end of the day, only those willing to follow God can achieve greatness, and those who prefer to follow themselves will see where that will take them.

To you also.

God made everything including hell, so your point is null and void.
And i refuse to believe that God is that heartless!

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

While I don’t disagree that the portrayal of a God Who shoots lightning from His eyes at the first sign of disobedience does drive people from the church, I think we need to define ‘conservative’ for the sake of this discussion.

I see that you are not US based. So there may be a point-of-view difference. To me, ‘conservative’ means prudent, just, honorable…the kind of men who wrote our Constitution.

These men did not portray God as a monster.

So how to proceed from here? Can mortal sin be (rightly) condemned, while still caring for the sinner?

Your Constitution has NOTHING to do with the catholic faith.
So why mention it?
And i dont think of them like heroes as you do.

Only in extreme cases like murder, rape, or genocide.
Not for being in another faith etc…

 

[SighGuy]

My points are not “null and void.” The fact that Hell exists actually strengthens my points, if you would bother to consider them.

Satan understands that happiness lies down the road that God has set out for him, but he prefers to take his own road, knowing full-well that it will not end in happiness. Just because he can. That’s Satan.

Satan is the moon, so in love with its own moonlight, that it curses and abhors the sun, and hugs itself and enjoys its own moonlight, and cuts itself off from the sun so that it is in darkness.

Of course there is a Hell. God would be a totalitarian if there wasn’t, because it would mean that he forced everyone to go His way and not their way. Since God permits others to go their way, necessarily God has to allow them to do so, and their way is Hell.

 

[SighGuy]

Furthermore, there you go again-- making false claims with absolutely no information. How many falsehoods will you state before you have to admit that if you don’t know what you’re talking about here, here and here, that maybe you also don’t know what you’re talking about with relation to Hell and sin?

Since when does being of another faith consign one to Hell? Ever read any of the documents of Vatican II?

 

[GaryTaylor]

No loving God could ever send somebody to be tormented forver for not worshiping him.

He doesn’t send you, you send yourself.

they were not deserted by God so that they deserted God; but they deserted and were deserted…St. Prosper of Aquitaine

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

My points are not “null and void.” The fact that Hell exists actually strengthens my points, if you would bother to consider them.

Satan understands that happiness lies down the road that God has set out for him, but he prefers to take his own road, knowing full-well that it will not end in happiness. Just because he can. That’s Satan.

Satan is the moon, so in love with its own moonlight, that it curses and abhors the sun, and hugs itself and enjoys its own moonlight, and cuts itself off from the sun so that it is in darkness.

Of course there is a Hell. God would be a totalitarian if there wasn’t, because it would mean that he forced everyone to go His way and not their way. Since God permits others to go their way, necessarily God has to allow them to do so, and their way is Hell.

No offense but that seems cold and heartless.
You seem to think that 90% of us go to hell… :S
I will never believe that.

Only the truly evil go to hell, not those who made a few mistakes along the way.
We all mae mistakes.
Bessides only Christ judges us.
And i do not believe he will be as cold as some are here.

Besides there can be extenuating circumstances, and you on this site have a habit of forgetting about that.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Furthermore, there you go again-- making false claims with absolutely no information. How many falsehoods will you state before you have to admit that if you don’t know what you’re talking about here, here and here, that maybe you also don’t know what you’re talking about with relation to Hell and sin?

Since when does being of another faith consign one to Hell? Ever read any of the documents of Vatican II?

My falsehoods?
Where?

 

[MichaelHowling]

…

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

He doesn’t send you, you send yourself.

Like in North Korea.
You send yourself to jail or a death camp for speaking out against the dear leader.

Well God is not like that!

And yes, some, but you should all read Canon 1324.

 

[MichaelHowling]

God is in no way a dictator.
A dictator needs the peoples acceptance, money, sweat and blood etc etc for their own personal gain and to ensure they stay in power and quite often take/keep this power by force.
God needs NOTHING………He doesn’t need us or anything we have. He has everything. If He needed anything, He woudn’t be God…

I think you have a misconception of what sin is. Sin isin’t just disobeying God. It is and of itself poisionous, dangerous and deadly. Think of sin more of as a disease process. It introduces disorder in a well unified “healthy” system.
God is love! And made the world out of love (He didn’t need it)……and like any artists’ work……the art has something of the artist inside of it. The world was made out of love, in love, to love……The nature of the world ……it’s reality….is love. Sin simply goes against the laws of love the world was made in. Sin “goes against the grain”. God’s law giving was not made to enslave a people……but simply to help guide and grow a people back to that initial beauty and unity He first created us in……that’s really it in a nutshell.

Example: you may not believe that gravity exists….but thank God it does right ? I mean….we’d be spinning off into the sun right now if it didn’t! So the law of gravity is just one reason we have some peace and order in our world. Whether you believe it exists or not is irrelevant……it exists. If you decide to fight against the law and walk off a building….u will bust your bones/die. Did the law cause your harm or did your pride in not accepting how the world was THANKFULLY made (again…gravity is a good that helps us live).

In the garden of eden the sin that caused us so much problem is that the devil came with a question……”choose, either god is a god of love who loves you and wishes to give everything to you….or he’s a dictator lording over you and is holding something back from you” We chose the later and ate of the “fruit” and our resulting world is what we got. God always wanted to share everything with us! He called us into existence, made a literal paridise for us with no pain, suffering or death….a world made to our liking and gave us dominion over EVERYTHING! And began a relationship with us……He wanted to share His own life with us! We chose, by eating of the fruit….to be gods without god.

 

[MichaelHowling]

When God told them they would “surely die” ……He wasint cursing them….He was warning them what would happen………again….sin goes against the grain of how the world was made. EVEN after THEY broke the relationship……what does God do? He clothes them to protect them and promises a remedy for their mistake. A dictator would have sent them off into some prison or death. We have a father……and Jesus even makes this known!

The 10 commandments weren’t given to punish……they were given to free the people! The jewish nation was enslaved in Egypt for hundreds of years and were rescued by God! He literally went to battle for them! He brought the most powerful nation to its knees for them and split a sea to rescue them. He fed them in a dessert. He gave the commandments for THEIR sake. Remember, these people were demoralized and had nothing or no sense of themselves. The commandments gave them morals, organization, purpose and eventually a culture and ability to have a nation! On a spiritual level….they helped order the people back to God and His initial unitive and loving plan He had in the garden of eden.

Throughout the old testament you see God reaching out to man to help save him from himself and we keep falling and falling and God keeps coming back!

We finally see the depth of Gods love in Jesus the Godman. God is willing to take our burdens on Himself! NO DICTATOR DOES THIS………………….He is willing to give up all of Heaven to come down to our level to love us, teach us, give us an example, and to selflessly give Himself over for us.
You doubt Gods love for us? that hes on our side? that he cares or understands ? Look at a crucifix?

You have a problem with hell ? Hell is simply present for those who obstanatley refuse to recognize the laws God made the world in. He loves us so much he won’t take away our will…we have the right to an existence outside of how God made the world. He made a world with peace, love, harmony and beauty…we had the right to transform the world into as it is today…we have the right for a perfect transformation of how God made the world…hell.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

When God told them they would “surely die” ……He wasint cursing them….He was warning them what would happen………again….sin goes against the grain of how the world was made. EVEN after THEY broke the relationship……what does God do? He clothes them to protect them and promises a remedy for their mistake. A dictator would have sent them off into some prison or death. We have a father……and Jesus even makes this known!

The 10 commandments weren’t given to punish……they were given to free the people! The jewish nation was enslaved in Egypt for hundreds of years and were rescued by God! He literally went to battle for them! He brought the most powerful nation to its knees for them and split a sea to rescue them. He fed them in a dessert. He gave the commandments for THEIR sake. Remember, these people were demoralized and had nothing or no sense of themselves. The commandments gave them morals, organization, purpose and eventually a culture and ability to have a nation! On a spiritual level….they helped order the people back to God and His initial unitive and loving plan He had in the garden of eden.

Throughout the old testament you see God reaching out to man to help save him from himself and we keep falling and falling and God keeps coming back!

We finally see the depth of Gods love in Jesus the Godman. God is willing to take our burdens on Himself! NO DICTATOR DOES THIS………………….He is willing to give up all of Heaven to come down to our level to love us, teach us, give us an example, and to selflessly give Himself over for us.
You doubt Gods love for us? that hes on our side? that he cares or understands ? Look at a crucifix?

You have a problem with hell ? Hell is simply present for those who obstanatley refuse to recognize the laws God made the world in. He loves us so much he won’t take away our will…we have the right to an existence outside of how God made the world. He made a world with peace, love, harmony and beauty…we had the right to transform the world into as it is today…we have the right for a perfect transformation of how God made the world…hell.

I have a problem with those who think fear of hell is the base of faith!