Godparents and Contraception

[N_Jude]

One must distinguish between venial sins or even repented of mortal sins…or even strong temptations to such…

and an objectively gravely sinful way of life which is objectively contrary to the Gospel…to the Christian way of life. (again see the code of canon law on the subject)

I absolutely agree. But neither I, you, the original poster, nor perhaps even the original poster’s priest know if this couple has repented, or even realize that they need to–perhaps they received some bad moral advice. But I picked this sins in my list that I did because they are mortal sins: greed, gluttony, pride. These days people like to ignore spiritual sins and concentrate more on carnal sins. I’m not saying the matter should be taken lightly or ignored, but simply that it should be kept in perspective, and should be discussed with a priest.

 

[Bookcat]

I have to say guys…I live in a predominately Catholic area with a whole family on both sides of Catholics. My children would not have God Parents is I stood there and judged every aspect of their lives. Like I said…we are all sinners. We are all doing out best. Thank God for the Sacrament of Confession and a merciful God.

Again…always distingush. See the posts above…it is not a question of have they committed sins…but what life are they leading now.

 

[jonnyblaze]

One must distinguish between venial sins or even repented of mortal sins…or even strong temptations to such…

and an objectively gravely sinful way of life which is objectively contrary to the Gospel…to the Christian way of life. (again see the code of canon law on the subject)

A person known to be practicing contraception is not the person to approach to be the baptismal or confirmation sponsor…or one living with their girl friend…or in a homosexual relationship…etc

As in the early Church …there were certain occupations that simply excluded a person from becoming a Christian …let along being a sponsor for one becoming such.

They needed to repent and live according to the teachings of the Church.

Bookcat, thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is how I feel on the topic.

May I ask for the favor of pointing me in the right direction as to where in the code of canon law I might be able to find this topic. I would very much like to use primary resources to help bolster what has naturally been placed on my conscience. Your help would be much appreciated, as I am no expert in Canon Law.

 

[joclucsylv]

As I noted…if they have repented…and confessed it (and have thus put their will against it…despising the sin) and have been absolved…and now live a faithful Christian life…that is a different story.

A person who had an abortion is in the same boat…but they too can be restored and can live faithful lives and be excellent sponsors.

OK…we are on the same page!

Now…why don’t we ask all potential God Parents if they finish the act vaginally in the bedroom. Joking!! Joking!!!

 

[Bookcat]

I absolutely agree. But neither I, you, the original poster, nor perhaps even the original poster’s priest know if this couple has repented, or even realize that they need to–perhaps they received some bad moral advice. But I picked this sins in my list that I did because they are mortal sins: greed, gluttony, pride. These days people like to ignore spiritual sins and concentrate more on carnal sins. I’m not saying the matter should be taken lightly or ignored, but simply that it should be kept in perspective, and should be discussed with a priest.

Actually greed, pride and gluttony can often be venial sins…

If a person *leads a gravely sinful life *of pride or greed …well they too should not be picked.

But the principle still stands. If they are leading a good faithful life (even if they have struggles with mortal sin from time to time …but do not make a life of it…rather repent and continue following Christ)…then they can be persons one may want to consider as sponsors.

 

[jonnyblaze]

I absolutely agree. But neither I, you, the original poster, nor perhaps even the original poster’s priest know if this couple has repented, or even realize that they need to–perhaps they received some bad moral advice. But I picked this sins in my list that I did because they are mortal sins: greed, gluttony, pride. These days people like to ignore spiritual sins and concentrate more on carnal sins. I’m not saying the matter should be taken lightly or ignored, but simply that it should be kept in perspective, and should be discussed with a priest.

Right, then you agree that there is a need for repentance. So, if I can find out that they have done so, I should feel comfortable moving ahead with them as godparents BUT if not, I think I should err on the side of caution, given that my child’s immortal soul may one day be at stake.

 

[joclucsylv]

Right, then you agree that there is a need for repentance. So, if I can find out that they have done so, I should feel comfortable moving ahead with them as godparents BUT if not, I think I should err on the side of caution, given that my child’s immortal soul may one day be at stake.

I agree jonnyblaze!!

 

[Bookcat]

Right, then you agree that there is a need for repentance. So, if I can find out that they have done so, I should feel comfortable moving ahead with them as godparents BUT if not, I think I should err on the side of caution, given that my child’s immortal soul may one day be at stake.

Your last line is key…lets pick persons for this role who will aid our children in living a holy Christian life! Lets pick the best even…just as we do in choosing schools etc.

Some fall into a cultural thing of thinking the role is some honorary thing to give to relatives etc…

it is not.

It is a very serious role (as you are expressing there! :clapping

 

[jonnyblaze]

OK…we are on the same page!

Now…why don’t we ask all potential God Parents if they finish the act vaginally in the bedroom. Joking!! Joking!!!

Haha, now that’s funny!

But seriously, it’s not as if I’m asking if I should go poking around for *every *possible state of sin. The fact is my ignorance was shattered, and I feel like I must respond appropriately. I’m not necessarily advocating a policy of going beyond ordinary means to determine how faithful someone is to the teaching of the Church on every issue. I just think that we need to use common sense, and not be afraid to respond appropriately when we do know something.

That’s not being too harsh, right?

 

[Bookcat]

Truth with charity and prudence…

 

[jonnyblaze]

Your last line is key…lets pick persons for this role who will aid our children in living a holy Christian life! Lets pick the best even…just as we do in choosing schools etc.

Some fall into a cultural thing of thinking the role is some honorary thing to give to relatives etc…

it is not.

It is a very serious role (as you are expressing there! :clapping

Thanks for the help. Now I’ve got to get praying that they will repent, because in honesty I think that they would make excellent godparents if they only knew how serious this issue was and rectified the situation.

 

[Phemie]

Thanks for the help. Now I’ve got to get praying that they will repent, because in honesty I think that they would make excellent godparents if they only knew how serious this issue was and rectified the situation.

What do you mean, rectified the situation?

You don’t know if they even knew it was forbidden – I’ve known more than one couple who were told by their pastor that they had done their duty and now could be sterilized in good conscience.

It’s not a sin if you don’t know it’s a sin – and again, this is not something that has been talked about much in our churches.

Now what do you propose they do? The Church doesn’t require reversal so are you going to require more from them than the Church?

How will this have any effect on your child unless you spell it out for him?

 

[jonnyblaze]

What do you mean, rectified the situation?

You don’t know if they even knew it was forbidden – I’ve known more than one couple who were told by their pastor that they had done their duty and now could be sterilized in good conscience.

It’s not a sin if you don’t know it’s a sin – and again, this is not something that has been talked about much in our churches.

Now what do you propose they do? The Church doesn’t require reversal so are you going to require more from them than the Church?

How will this have any effect on your child unless you spell it out for him?

You know, I’ll cross that bridge at the appropriate time. Generally speaking, I would consider “rectification” as showing some sort of repentance. But yea I might require more from them (i.e., a reversal) to be MY CHILD’S GODPARENTS than the bare minimum the Church teaches. Look, I want the best for my child and it’s not as if me not choosing them as godparents somehow condemns them to eternal damnation.

It will impact my child the same way that any other sin impacts the community. You do believe that there is a communal aspect to sin, no? I do not know the exact manifestation that might take place, but I do know that if evil is allowed to fester in a situation, it will ultimately rear its ugly head and impact large quantities of people involved in that situation. I would prefer to protect my child from that.

 

[Phemie]

You know, I’ll cross that bridge at the appropriate time. Generally speaking, I would consider “rectification” as showing some sort of repentance. But yea I might require more from them (i.e., a reversal) to be MY CHILD’S GODPARENTS than the bare minimum the Church teaches. Look, I want the best for my child and it’s not as if me not choosing them as godparents somehow condemns them to eternal damnation.

It will impact my child the same way that any other sin impacts the community. You do believe that there is a communal aspect to sin, no? I do not know the exact manifestation that might take place, but I do know that if evil is allowed to fester in a situation, it will ultimately rear its ugly head and impact large quantities of people involved in that situation. I would prefer to protect my child from that.

Again, it’s not a sin if they didn’t know it was a sin. Those of us who frequent these boards are not your run-of-the-mill Catholic in the pew. We’ve read, we’ve discussed, and we’re more aware. The average person in the pew hasn’t heard ‘boo’ about contraception or sterilization in 40 years. The average person hasn’t learned basic catechism on this topic.

What’s done is done, how “repentant” do they have to be to suit you? Sack cloth and ashes, perhaps? Perhaps they need proclaim their sin from the town square? Is it enough if they cry in their pillow at night because they can’t have any more children?

It’s your perogative not to have them as your child’s godparents, but to require more of them than the Church does is hubris.

 

[StarFireKK]

You know, I’ll cross that bridge at the appropriate time. Generally speaking, I would consider “rectification” as showing some sort of repentance. But yea I might require more from them (i.e., a reversal) to be MY CHILD’S GODPARENTS than the bare minimum the Church teaches. Look, I want the best for my child and it’s not as if me not choosing them as godparents somehow condemns them to eternal damnation.

It will impact my child the same way that any other sin impacts the community. You do believe that there is a communal aspect to sin, no? I do not know the exact manifestation that might take place, but I do know that if evil is allowed to fester in a situation, it will ultimately rear its ugly head and impact large quantities of people involved in that situation. I would prefer to protect my child from that.

Do yourself and your friends a favor and ask someone else to be your child’s godparents.

You have no right to discuss such a personal issue with them. You have no right to demand to know what they have or have not repented. You certainly have no right to demand a reversal to a procedure you cannot possibility know all the information about.

You were given information you shouldn’t even have. You have reason to believe that it is true. It is very obvious this information bothers you greatly. Pick someone else.

But you do realize whoever you pick will probably slip up now and then and won’t take kindly to you marching in and dictating their lives for the sake of your child, right?

 

[jonnyblaze]

Do yourself and your friends a favor and ask someone else to be your child’s godparents.

You have no right to discuss such a personal issue with them. You have no right to demand to know what they have or have not repented. You certainly have no right to demand a reversal to a procedure you cannot possibility know all the information about.

You were given information you shouldn’t even have. You have reason to believe that it is true. It is very obvious this information bothers you greatly. Pick someone else.

But you do realize whoever you pick will probably slip up now and then and won’t take kindly to you marching in and dictating their lives for the sake of your child, right?

I’m not dictating anyone’s life for the sake of my child. I want what’s best for my child, but I also want what’s best for this particular couple. Living in a state of grave sin (it IS a grave sin whether they know it or not; it may not be a mortal sin, but it is objectively a grave sin according to Church teaching) is NOT what’s best for them either.

Should I know? Nope. Do I know? Yes, I do. So beyond my affection toward this couple, when my soul is judged for how I handled various moral dilemmas, I will not be able to hide behind some lame excuse of “Well I should not have known in the first place.”

And yes we all slip up, but that is a completely different situation from essentially institutionalizing those slip-ups as a part of your lifestyle. This was discussed prior in the thread.

 

[jonnyblaze]

Again, it’s not a sin if they didn’t know it was a sin. Those of us who frequent these boards are not your run-of-the-mill Catholic in the pew. We’ve read, we’ve discussed, and we’re more aware. The average person in the pew hasn’t heard ‘boo’ about contraception or sterilization in 40 years. The average person hasn’t learned basic catechism on this topic.

What’s done is done, how “repentant” do they have to be to suit you? Sack cloth and ashes, perhaps? Perhaps they need proclaim their sin from the town square? Is it enough if they cry in their pillow at night because they can’t have any more children?

It’s your perogative not to have them as your child’s godparents, but to require more of them than the Church does is hubris.

I’m not here to judge the state of their souls. What I can and will judge is that a sterilized married couple that has chosen this state of life freely is objectively disordered, and not in some trivial way. It is a GRAVE sin objectively, whether or not they know it is a sin. I would like for that disordered circumstance to be rectified before choosing to vest certain authority in those people. Again, this is not like saying, “I used a condom a couple times.” To be perfectly frank, I’m not 100% sure what the Church requires as a means to demonstrate true repentance. I might need to ask a priest about that, or look it up, but just saying “What’s done is done…” seems to be incredibly morally irresponsible, if not reprehensible.

 

[Elizium23]

Again, it’s not a sin if they didn’t know it was a sin.

I beg to differ. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. While a sin is not mortal if you’re not aware it is grave matter, it is still unquestionably a sin.

 

[StarFireKK]

I’m not dictating anyone’s life for the sake of my child. I want what’s best for my child, but I also want what’s best for this particular couple. Living in a state of grave sin (it IS a grave sin whether they know it or not; it may not be a mortal sin, but it is objectively a grave sin according to Church teaching) is NOT what’s best for them either.

Should I know? Nope. Do I know? Yes, I do. So beyond my affection toward this couple, when my soul is judged for how I handled various moral dilemmas, I will not be able to hide behind some lame excuse of “Well I should not have known in the first place.”

And yes we all slip up, but that is a completely different situation from essentially institutionalizing those slip-ups as a part of your lifestyle. This was discussed prior in the thread.

Your comment about asking them to do more than the Church will to be YOUR CHILD’S godparents makes it very clear your child is your first priority. And how would be demanding a reversal not dictating?

If you are really concerned about your friends why don’t you just being the topic up in general about the Church’s teachings instead of asking how they have repented which seems to be your intention considering your previous comments. Then they can be “made” aware of the teachings and can learn more on their own. You will still respect their privacy.

But I can’t think of any married man I know who would allow you to sit down and talk to his wife about such a topic in such a way and stay friends with you. Most men would consider that attacking their wife.

 

[jonnyblaze]

Your comment about asking them to do more than the Church will to be YOUR CHILD’S godparents makes it very clear your child is your first priority. And how would be demanding a reversal not dictating?

If you are really concerned about your friends why don’t you just being the topic up in general about the Church’s teachings instead of asking how they have repented which seems to be your intention considering your previous comments. Then they can be “made” aware of the teachings and can learn more on their own. You will still respect their privacy.

But I can’t think of any married man I know who would allow you to sit down and talk to his wife about such a topic in such a way and stay friends with you. Most men would consider that attacking their wife.

My child is my *first *priority in this instance (as he should be given my station in life) and this couple is my second.

I understand your point – I never actually intended to ask outright for how they sought to repent. I won’t get into all the details, but in this particular case, there would be ways of knowing at least a portion of the situation (e.g., have they confessed it, etc.). But I think your point that just bringing the topic up in a more general sense is probably the most tactful way to go about things. Thank you for the suggestion.

BTW, I would not attempt to sit down with the wife. It’s the husband who actually had the procedure anyways. Not that that changes anything above, just wanted to be clear.