God's chosen & the Hardening of Pharaoh's Heart

[Richard_Kastner]

Not according to Jesus. Matt 5:17-19. The ONLY person who said anything to this effect was Paul. It was not prophesied to be done in the Tanakh and Jesus did not claim to do this.
First, what is it you are trying to be saved from? That is the start of being honest with yourself.
I am still waiting for one person to show me one place in the Laws of God where it is said that a man was an acceptable sacrifice for the atonement of the sins of the world. I am sure that the reason that this has not been answered is because it is not there. If it is not there, then Jesus could not have fulfilled that for us.

Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[simplynoone]

Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

You will find the Truth here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=327815

As far as this first verse, whenever the JEWISH Scriptures are referring to the Gentiles, they say so. The “our,” the “whom” is not referring to Gentiles… read Isaiah 1:1 to find out who this prophecy is by and who it is that it addresses.

 

[simplynoone]

Realy lets look at some parallels. Lets start with Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses “I AM WHO I AM” He said further "Thus you shall say to the Israelites, “I AM has sent me to you”. This draws along side of John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, Itell you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Or howbout Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfedt, reviving the soul; the decrees of the LORD are sure, making wise the simple. This draws a parallel to Galations 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
(Christ did this by bearing the burdens of our sin)

So, if 50 years after my death someone writes that I said “before Abraham was, I Am” you would believe that I was God in the flesh?

What am I trying to be saved from!?:banghead: The same problem that plagues all of humanity. Dirty rotten sinful nature. I have this problem so do you and every person on the face of this planet weather they want to admit it or not.

Hmmm… Are you saying the Creator made a mistake?

Well Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, do not put the Lord your God to the test.” This is also repeated in Luke 4:12. Clearly Jesus is referencing him self when he addresses the devil.
Second you are trying to tell me that a simple animal sacrafice is better than the son of the living God dying for my sins? I think not.

What I am saying is that I know who it is my Saviour is and He was always the Saviour long before man came up with the concept of a godman. Isaiah 43:11-12

 

[workingman]

So, if 50 years after my death someone writes that I said “before Abraham was, I Am” you would believe that I was God in the flesh?

Not going to bother commenting, but with this Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will gie you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. Then see Matthew 1:23 Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel, which means, “Godis with us.”

Hmmm… Are you saying the Creator made a mistake?

Absolutly not. The only reason sin entered the world is due to the fall of mankind in the begining. The Creator God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit. The one and only triune God makes no mistakes.

What I am saying is that I know who it is my Saviour is and He was always the Saviour long before man came up with the concept of a godman. Isaiah 43:11-12

But yet you reject God by rejecting his son. Jesus Christ was not a man made invention.
Are you tring to say that you where there first hand?

 

[simplynoone]

But yet you reject God by rejecting his son. Jesus Christ was not a man made invention.
Are you tring to say that you where there first hand?

No, I do not say I was there to witness it firsthand and because God said that I will witness firsthand His working (repeatedly said in Isaiah), I know that I am safe to trust that what I need to know will be before me… not something that I need to accept on blind faith. And no, I do not reject God’s Son… you will find the name of His Son in Exo 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1.

 

[workingman]

=simplynoone;5095952]No, I do not say I was there to witness it firsthand and because God said that I will witness firsthand His working (repeatedly said in Isaiah), I know that I am safe to trust that what I need to know will be before me… not something that I need to accept on blind faith. And no, I do not reject God’s Son… you will find the name of His Son in Exo 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1.

So then by all rights do you accept the NT As the new covenant?

 

[simplynoone]

=simplynoone;5095952]No, I do not say I was there to witness it firsthand and because God said that I will witness firsthand His working (repeatedly said in Isaiah), I know that I am safe to trust that what I need to know will be before me… not something that I need to accept on blind faith. And no, I do not reject God’s Son… you will find the name of His Son in Exo 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1.

So then by all rights do you accept the NT As the new covenant?

What new covenant in the NT would that be? Jesus came to confirm TO the Jews, to Israel, the Covenant given in Jeremiah 31. Paul did not support this covenant though, so I am sure you are referring to another one. Care to share?

 

[workingman]

What new covenant in the NT would that be? Jesus came to confirm TO the Jews, to Israel, the Covenant given in Jeremiah 31. Paul did not support this covenant though, so I am sure you are referring to another one. Care to share?

You are comical. Jesus was sent to all. Is that why he sent his decipels out to all nations baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I am thankful every day that he was nailed to a tree crusified for my sins to nullify the lavitical law that I am now assuming you hold to. Jesus Christ paid the price of our sins in the NT. Read it! It is very sef explanitory.

 

[simplynoone]

You are comical. Jesus was sent to all. Is that why he sent his decipels out to all nations baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I am thankful every day that he was nailed to a tree crusified for my sins to nullify the lavitical law that I am now assuming you hold to. Jesus Christ paid the price of our sins in the NT. Read it! It is very sef explanitory.

I have read the NT over and over and all I see of a newer covenant other than the one that was already stated in Jeremiah 31 is the one that Paul came up with… sort of. He actually stumbles a bit over his explanation of how this newER covenant WOULD replace the old completely… which is odd, don’t you think? If Jesus’ blood being shed WAS the newER covenant you would THINK that (a) God would have told his prophets about this since He said that He would not do anything without first revealing it to them… and I do not see anything of this NEWER covenant from any of them other than Paul (and that was AFTER the deed) and (b) note: it was AFTER Jesus’ blood being shed that Paul goofs up and says that the old (whether this is the actual OLD covenant or the new covenant confirmed by the prophets, it is anyone’s guess) is ready to vanish away… the goof up is that apparently it did NOT vanish away upon the shedding of Jesus’ blood by the author’s of Hebrews own admission (Hebrews 8:13… ahem… sounds like that was the author’s plan… to have it fade away in the mind of the Jews <---- who it was that Paul harassed since it certainly wasn’t the Gentiles he was taking the message to… read in Acts… he was always going to the Jews and trying to convince them… not the Gentiles).

So, tell me, since the author of Hebrews admitted that the Old Covenant was not abolished upon the shedding of Jesus’ blood nor was it abolished at the time of the writing of Hebrews, when WAS it abolished, or is it STILL decaying and fading away? Where does God say this will happen?

Oh… and the details of this newER covenant are actually not given… it is only assumptions that can be made of what exactly it entails.

 

[workingman]

simplynoone;5096754]
I have read the NT over and over and all I see of a newer covenant other than the one that was already stated in Jeremiah 31 is the one that Paul came up with… sort of. He actually stumbles a bit over his explanation of how this newER covenant WOULD replace the old completely… which is odd, don’t you think? If Jesus’ blood being shed WAS the newER covenant you would THINK that (a) God would have told his prophets about this since He said that He would not do anything without first revealing it to them… and I do not see anything of this NEWER covenant from any of them other than Paul (and that was AFTER the deed) and (b) note: it was AFTER Jesus’ blood being shed that Paul goofs up and says that the old (whether this is the actual OLD covenant or the new covenant confirmed by the prophets, it is anyone’s guess) is ready to vanish away… the goof up is that apparently it did NOT vanish away upon the shedding of Jesus’ blood by the author’s of Hebrews own admission (Hebrews 8:13… ahem… sounds like that was the author’s plan… to have it fade away in the mind of the Jews <---- who it was that Paul harassed since it certainly wasn’t the Gentiles he was taking the message to… read in Acts… he was always going to the Jews and trying to convince them… not the Gentiles).

That is because the Jew were being bullheaded and would not understand.

So, tell me, since the author of Hebrews admitted that the Old Covenant was not abolished upon the shedding of Jesus’ blood nor was it abolished at the time of the writing of Hebrews, when WAS it abolished, or is it STILL decaying and fading away? Where does God say this will happen?

I don’t see where he denies Jesus shedding of blood abolished it.

Oh… and the details of this newER covenant are actually not given… it is only assumptions that can be made of what exactly it entails.

And what superfilus details would you like spelled out. The lavitical laws do not take presidence and there is not a need to write a whole new set.

 

[simplynoone]

That is because the Jew were being bullheaded and would not understand.

Be sure that you are not mistaking the israelITES for the jews, because I think there were plenty of Jews who understood. Would you say that those who wrote the Tanakh did not understand? What about Jesus? The ones who did NOT understand seemed to fall more under the type of theology that Paul held to… you know, worshiping an image… an idol!

I don’t see where he denies Jesus shedding of blood abolished it.

If you were to see a cloud fading away, would you say that the cloud IS aboloshed or was being abolished? There is a difference… the author of Hebrews held to the latter and thus, the new covenant was not fully abolished according to him… the newER covenant that was made up by the author was IN THE process of abolishing the new covenant (jer 31); of course, in the minds of those he could influence though.

And what superfilus details would you like spelled out. The lavitical laws do not take presidence and there is not a need to write a whole new set.

Jeremiah 31’s covenant is spelled out good enough for me AND it does not contradict Malachi 3:6 like the newER covenant does. I think if the Gentiles knew exactly what that entailed for them, they would be more willing to accept it… that is those Gentiles whose hearts are open to the Truth… there are Jews on here you can ask (as Psa 78:5 says that it is established in them)… “and the world knew him not” always comes to mind when the Gentiles refuse to listen.

 

[workingman]

simplynoone,

We can sit here and counter each other till the cows come home. You obviously have your opinion and I have mine. The way I read the NT and OT it all points to Jesus Christ as the final and atoning sacrafice for sin.

Is there good in the lavitical law. Yes, if it were not for the lavitical law I would not know what a rotten sinner I am. This drives me to the foot of the cross for the forgivness of my sins. It is realy that simple to me.

This quote you gave bothers me though. Here is what you said.

The ones who did NOT understand seemed to fall more under the type of theology that Paul held to… you know, worshiping an image… an idol!

I realy hope you are not trying to say Paul worships a idol. That is the most perpostorus (sp?) I have heard said if that is the case.

Be sure that you are not mistaking the israelITES for the jews, because I think there were plenty of Jews who understood.

Were not majority of the israellites jewis? I thought this was the founding point of jewdiesm. I appologise if I am wrong.

Would you say that those who wrote the Tanakh did not understand?

Those who wrote it. Yes they understood it (OT). I don’t know if you understand how this realy does point to Jesus Christ.

What about Jesus?

The fact he atoned for all our sins would be a good place to start.

 

[simplynoone]

simplynoone,

We can sit here and counter each other till the cows come home. You obviously have your opinion and I have mine. The way I read the NT and OT it all points to Jesus Christ as the final and atoning sacrafice for sin.

And this is why I will be more correct than you. See, I believe Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17-19 and I went to the beginning. Nowhere in there did I see the name Jesus. I have seen several of the variations that people are now calling him but they do not refer to him as the Messiah. What I say, that Israel is the anointed IS confirmed all throughout the Tanakh. That is the problem… you see all of this as the past and hope it will manifest in the future. I see it as now and have chose to put my trust in the Word that came with the promise in Malachi 3:6. Therefore, I can see the fulfillment of the Word and you cannot.

Is there good in the lavitical law. Yes, if it were not for the lavitical law I would not know what a rotten sinner I am. This drives me to the foot of the cross for the forgivness of my sins. It is realy that simple to me.

If it were not for the Law of God standing as it is, I would not have hope! I depend on His Law standing as it is and not being broken. I do not view them as a show of how rotten I am… I see them as a testament my Life being intact. I see them this way because I see the fulfillment happening before my eyes.

This quote you gave bothers me though. Here is what you said.

I realy hope you are not trying to say Paul worships a idol. That is the most perpostorus (sp?) I have heard said if that is the case.

Actually, now I would like to add to that. I have seen that Paul constructed things in such a way to where the Church was allowed the opportunity to deceive many into worshiping man over God. In their minds, they have brought God down to their level and then killed Him. Fortunately, it has only been man they have killed in their mind and not God.
It is why I have a Rock to stand on… given by Mercy to me for seeking the Truth at all costs.

Were not majority of the israellites jewis? I thought this was the founding point of jewdiesm. I appologise if I am wrong.

The house of Israel is the house that was given as a sacrifice via the spreading of the bloodline into the world’s gene pool. The house of Judah has been given as a light to the Gentiles who contain the seed of Israel. Those who have the seed hopefully will see the Light.

Those who wrote it. Yes they understood it (OT). I don’t know if you understand how this realy does point to Jesus Christ.

The fact he atoned for all our sins would be a good place to start.

This, what you believe, contradicts the spirit of David. One man to die to cover sins is HIGHLY contradictive that I am embarassed for you concerning your lack of knowledge.

Consider… David went into a woman that belonged to another man. When she became pregnant, he ____ her husband to cover his ______. Fill in the blanks with what the Church is teaching you. The spirit of David was birthed by his realization that his method of atonement was NOT the way to God.

 

[workingman]

took you long enough to come back to this thread. What in the world made you post here again. This has been dead for almost a month. well here we still go.

And this is why I will be more correct than you. See, I believe Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17-19 and I went to the beginning. Nowhere in there did I see the name Jesus. I have seen several of the variations that people are now calling him but they do not refer to him as the Messiah. What I say, that Israel is the anointed IS confirmed all throughout the Tanakh. That is the problem… you see all of this as the past and hope it will manifest in the future. I see it as now and have chose to put my trust in the Word that came with the promise in Malachi 3:6. Therefore, I can see the fulfillment of the Word and you cannot.
Jesus did fofill the law. As a Christian he does not tell me to ignor it but to try and live it.

If it were not for the Law of God standing as it is, I would not have hope! I depend on His Law standing as it is and not being broken. I do not view them as a show of how rotten I am… I see them as a testament my Life being intact. I see them this way because I see the fulfillment happening before my eyes.
You are truly a fool if you think you can fofill the law and earn your way to heven.

Actually, now I would like to add to that. I have seen that Paul constructed things in such a way to where the Church was allowed the opportunity to deceive many into worshiping man over God. In their minds, they have brought God down to their level and then killed Him. Fortunately, it has only been man they have killed in their mind and not God.
It is why I have a Rock to stand on… given by Mercy to me for seeking the Truth at all costs.
The jews under piolt kill Jesus. Not the deciples. Jesus is God and that is that.

The house of Israel is the house that was given as a sacrifice via the spreading of the bloodline into the world’s gene pool. The house of Judah has been given as a light to the Gentiles who contain the seed of Israel. Those who have the seed hopefully will see the Light.
I am sorry but I am the Gentile and I follow God.

This, what you believe, contradicts the spirit of David. One man to die to cover sins is HIGHLY contradictive that I am embarassed for you concerning your lack of knowledge.
I am feel sorry for you for being struck blind to the truth of the Jeus Christ the messia and God man/God made flesh

Consider… David went into a woman that belonged to another man. When she became pregnant, he ____ her _____ to cover his ______. Fill in the blanks with what the Church is teaching you. The spirit of David was birthed by his realization that his method of atonement was NOT the way to God.

I am filled with the spirt of God. The spirit of David? what the are you talking about.

 

[simplynoone]

took you long enough to come back to this thread. What in the world made you post here again. This has been dead for almost a month. well here we still go.

Whose time scale are you under? I am under that of your Church’s and according to them, it has only been a little over a week.

I am filled with the spirt of God. The spirit of David? what the are you talking about.

Ha! If Christianity is based on the Tanakh, would it not be wise to understand it first? Isaiah seemed to think so when he said that God declared the end from the beginning.

 

[simplynoone]

Jesus did fofill the law. As a Christian he does not tell me to ignor it but to try and live it.

Uh… that was not Jesus who told you that as Jesus was not a Christian. He was a Jew. Understand this and you will have at least made progress. A Jew CANNOT be a Christian. They are two TOTALLY different religions. One is based on God’s Words to the Jews and the other is based on Paul’s words to whoever would believe him.

You are truly a fool if you think you can fofill the law and earn your way to heven.

If only you could see from my perspective. By the way, I am not looking to work or believe my way into heaven. I am guided by something much more profound and there is no set destiny in mind… that is where my trust in God is very much tested. If it fails, then let come what come. I am the servant and He is the guide.

The jews under piolt kill Jesus. Not the deciples. Jesus is God and that is that.

According to Matthew, it was the blood thirsty Gentiles that crucified Jesus… and THAT is not only consistent with history, but also the NT.

I am sorry but I am the Gentile and I follow God.

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between the Gentiles and the Gentiles who have the seed to follow the Voice of God despite their own desires.

I am feel sorry for you for being struck blind to the truth of the Jeus Christ the messia and God man/God made flesh

Oh gosh! Please do not feel sorry for me! I would not want my life to be any other way than dedicated to the Voice of God. Even when my own expectations are shattered, I find that after understanding comes I am filled with great joy upon acceptance. I do not serve Him for my desires, but I do so for that is what I am called out to do and I have chosen to obey. I could not imagine there to be a better way to live my life. If I had it all to do over again, I still would follow that call.

 

[swariffin]

Exodus 7 is the account where God hardens the heart of Pharaoh. This is often seen as God overriding the free will of man, and yet, if we look closer… perhaps we will see that this is not the case. In the Egyptian culture, gods among men were not out of the ordinary (in their perception). Pharaoh, though, was considered THE god of the people and this was his pride. Then, in walks Moses with his prophet Aaron doing these wonderous signs… surely Pharaoh saw this as a threat to his god-like status over the people. Suddenly, about all he had going for him was his word to say “yes” or “no” to the people being set free to serve THEIR God. It was the thought of God being with His People that hardened Pharaoh’s heart. After all, they no longer would “serve” Pharaoh as he liked. So, when God said that He would harden Pharaoh’s heart, He did not mean He would override His free-will, but rather that the ONE True God was claiming this People as His own and so, the jealousy would cause Him to say no (his last bit of say so in the matter).

So, my question is, what is it that is gathered in this light upon reading Isaiah 41? What does it do to your heart when you hear that it is still the Jewish who ARE the Chosen of God (after all, God promised not to change in Malachi 3:6)? What thoughts come to your mind… are they pleasant, good will thoughts to know that the Church is not Chosen, but rather it is still this beautiful People?

If you think that the Church is the Chosen, what is your cause and who is it that really chose you? Was it REALLY God or was it perhaps you who chose yourself? Could it be that a god in the image of man was formed for the same purpose that the Egyptians formed their god-men… that is to say, to elevate their own selves in their own eyes? If you say that you are chosen of God, what exactly does that mean to you? There is a purpose to being Chosen of God and the reason shines through clearly in the account of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart.

If “Israel” at that time was chosen by God, why would they fall into the hand of Nebukadnezzar from Babel? The interesting point is, such conquer was foretold by the prophets. Why the Tabernacle should be vanish? Why the temple destroyed? (Never even be recovered since 70AD) Why there was no longer any further king greater than David?

God hardening the Pharaoh’s heart was to stress that it was God who led the Israel out of Egypt, not Moses. I agree with you. So, it is God whom human being all over the world should depend on to, not to the state of Israel.

 

[simplynoone]

If “Israel” at that time was chosen by God, why would they fall into the hand of Nebukadnezzar from Babel? The interesting point is, such conquer was foretold by the prophets. Why the Tabernacle should be vanish? Why the temple destroyed? (Never even be recovered since 70AD) Why there was no longer any further king greater than David?

All in good time dear. God LOVES Israel so much that He decided to teach them about Divine Love. This is something that is hard for many to understand I guess, but it is the reason that God has allowed the Jewish to endure what others see as rejection at His hand. In actuality, it is to teach them of Divine Love because He knew this was a People that could be taught such lessons… that they would endure the chastisements and the being thrown away. They were a loyal People who would always hear that call back to God no matter what… it is who they are. The spirit of David was promised to reign, but the spirit of David is one that is birthed… God’s creations are not magic tricks… they are works of Truth.

God hardening the Pharaoh’s heart was to stress that it was God who led the Israel out of Egypt, not Moses. I agree with you. So, it is God whom human being all over the world should depend on to, not to the state of Israel.

Pharaoh’s heart hardened because Pharaoh realized that he was not in control of God’s People. He went too far in that he made God’s People slaves and then set himself up as though HE was God. Time had passed and he seemed to have forgotten that God does not leave His children to the dogs. Moses led the children out, make no mistake about it. Matthew 5:17-19… why do you think Jesus said to observe and teach the Law as it is? Israel, God’s creation, depends on God not breaking or abolishing His Law as does the rest of the world.

 

[workingman]

simplynoone;5133785] Whose time scale are you under? I am under that of your Church’s and according to them, it has only been a little over a week.
Seems alot longer does not realy matter.

Ha! If Christianity is based on the Tanakh, would it not be wise to understand it first? Isaiah seemed to think so when he said that God declared the end from the beginning.

Since you won’t like my answere why don’t you just tell me.

 

[workingman]

Uh… that was not Jesus who told you that as Jesus was not a Christian. He was a Jew. Understand this and you will have at least made progress. A Jew CANNOT be a Christian. They are two TOTALLY different religions. One is based on God’s Words to the Jews and the other is based on Paul’s words to whoever would believe him.
Jesus was the founder of Christianity. He had to be born a Jew because that was what was prophesied in the OT. The same way he had to perfectly uphold the law. My religion is not based on Pauls word it is based on Christ.

If only you could see from my perspective. By the way, I am not looking to work or believe my way into heaven. I am guided by something much more profound and there is no set destiny in mind… that is where my trust in God is very much tested. If it fails, then let come what come. I am the servant and He is the guide.
You have no set destiny. What a way to go through life. I am sertan of mine. God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit. The Triune God. Along with the Church established by Christ. I know it Christianity will not fail. I am his slave Christ guide me where he will.

According to Matthew, it was the blood thirsty Gentiles that crucified Jesus… and THAT is not only consistent with history, but also the NT.
Sight the point where

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between the Gentiles and the Gentiles who have the seed to follow the Voice of God despite their own desires.


Oh gosh! Please do not feel sorry for me! I would not want my life to be any other way than dedicated to the Voice of God. Even when my own expectations are shattered, I find that after understanding comes I am filled with great joy upon acceptance. I do not serve Him for my desires, but I do so for that is what I am called out to do and I have chosen to obey. I could not imagine there to be a better way to live my life. If I had it all to do over again, I still would follow that call.

About all I can say is I am glad it brings you peace. I do not agree with your understanding of the OT or NT. I hope you find your salvation I know I have mine in Christ Jesus.