God's fault we are sinners?

[rosejmj]

I always hear Catholics say that we are guilty and we deserve hell because we are sinners. Because of God’s great love and mercy we can hope to be saved if we repent and follow his commandments.

It seems really unfair and it doesn’t make sense to me why we are blamed for being sinners when God made us like that. He made us with sinful inclinations and instead of recognizing that God made us that way we blame it on Adam and Eve- God’s creatures, and ourselves. It seems like we are lying to ourselves to make God seem like the good guy when in reality it doesn’t seem like He is. And then we deserve hell because God made us weak and sinful. We’ll go ahead and send me to hell! Why did God make us anyway? I just don’t understand and I can’t help feeling angry at God because of this.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

He made us with sinful inclinations

Where did you get that idea?

 

[rosejmj]

Well according to the Church he made is with original sin. Because we have original sin we are inclined to sin

 

[CRV]

I always hear Catholics say that we are guilty and we deserve hell because we are sinners.

We are guilty because we have free will. We deserve hell because we know full well that something is seriously wrong/grave matter before we do it, and knowing this we still fully consent to doing it. So there are the three conditons for a sin to be mortal, and knowing these grave matters merit hell. We deliberately choose to do it.

It seems really unfair and it doesn’t make sense to me why we are blamed for being sinners when God made us like that.

But God didn’t make us like that. God make us good. Sin and the concupiscence to sin entered our human nature through Adam and Eve grave sin of eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. God is not reponsible for the sins we commit, because we freely choose to do them. God will not override our free will because he love us too much, and wants us to love him (obeying His laws etc) of our own free will/our choosing.

He made us with sinful inclinations

He didn’t make us like that. See my point above.

It seems like we are lying to ourselves to make God seem like the good guy when in reality it doesn’t seem like He is

But God is the good guy! He is all good - perfect good. Therefore nothing bad/evil, imperfect exists in God. It’s not possible.

And then we deserve hell because God made us weak and sinful.

Again, God did not make us weak and sinful. That is due to concupiscence to sin, human frailty.

Why did God make us anyway?

To know Him, to love Him, to serve Him and to be with Him for eternity.

 

[rosejmj]

Well apparently it is impossible to avoid sin(once you reach the age of reason). And why blame the creature and not the creator of the creature?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Well according to the Church he made is with original sin.

Where does it say that?

 

[rosejmj]

Just because Adam and Eve sinned does not mean God had to make us weak and sinful. Ie with original sin. That was his choice. We are the ones who are punished for being sinners. I get sins of malice being our fault…but sins of weakness? Not our fault we are weak

 

[rosejmj]

Well how else would we have original sin? Didn’t God make us? He obviously chose to have us “inherit” original sin

 

[midori]

Think about babies who are born to mothers who abuse opioids. They haven’t done anything themselves-- but their parents exposed them to drugs, and they deal with withdrawal symptoms, sometimes to the point of seizures or death.

God didn’t make them that way-- but they inherited their parent’s problem. If they continue to grow and develop and take note of their environment, and their parents still continue to use opioids around them, it will be much more difficult for them to avoid addiction in their own futures.

Sin is similar. We inherit our parents’ problems, too. With attentiveness, we can overcome our natural inclinations and rise above our environment-- but it’s not easy.

We can see the sin around us, and think, “Oh, that’s normal” or “Oh, that’s fun.” Or we can see the sin around us and think, “Oh, my. That destroys lives, and it destroys our souls.” And we can use it as an example of how not to be.

If someone’s mom is an addict, is it God’s fault that she chose that path? Is it God’s fault that he didn’t prevent her from using her free will? Is it God’s fault that he didn’t magically cure her after she did? Is it God’s fault that allowed her to reproduce and pass on her bad habits and poor decision-making skills?

Eventually, if you follow that line of reasoning, that God-should-have-done-something, you’re just going to end up with puppets. And so God did do something— which was the Incarnation, and everything that went along with it. It’s up to us to cooperate with God, with the benefit of all the books and information we have at hand these days.

 

[CRV]

Well apparently it is impossible to avoid sin(once you reach the age of reason).

Only mortal sin merits hell. Venial sin does not. As Jesus said to Peter, “My grace is sufficient for you”.

And why blame the creature and not the creator of the creature?

Because sin is a personal act - a choice the creature makes of their own free will. Because God does not and cannot will evil which sin is.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Well how else would we have original sin? Didn’t God make us? He obviously chose to have us “inherit” original sin

We aren’t created as only individuals.
We are made in God’s own image, and God Himself is three-in-one, a community of Persons in One God.
We are made for relationship and community.
Sin disrupts community and harms us all.
Adam and Eve had the choice to make good choices and did not—it affected us all because that’s how sin works. It breaks the bonds among us and causes suffering to all.
God made humanity good.
People made bad choices that hurt us all.

 

[rosejmj]

I still cant help but blame God. He is God isn’t he? He chooses how things will be. He is in control. He chose to make sin be passed on from Adam and Eve to us. Why can’t he just accept the blame. Why must we blame it on His creatures? Really he shouldn’t have made us if he was just going to condemn us to hell

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I guess that’s where we’re different.
When I do wrong, I blame myself…

 

[Gorgias]

It seems really unfair and it doesn’t make sense to me why we are blamed for being sinners when God made us like that. He made us with sinful inclinations

Notice the vast gulf between your two statements (not to mention the inaccuracy in them):

• there’s a world of difference between “sinful inclination” and “sin” itself. If one is born with the tools to be a star athlete – that is, s/he has the inclination to athleticism – and one chooses to hone those skills and actually become an athlete, is the credit assigned to inclination, or to the act of actualizing that inclination? And, if it’s assigned to the act, then it’s assigned to the person who acts, right? So, by the same token, “sin” requires the choice to actualize the “inclination”, and thus, it redounds to the person, not to the Creator.
• Humans weren’t “made with sinful inclinations”, according to the teachings of the Church. Rather, having been made and having been given preternatural gifts, humans nevertheless chose against these gifts and chose sin. It is this human choice of sin that wounds our nature. Sin isn’t part of our nature, it’s a defect that proceeds from the misuse of our nature.

And then we deserve hell because God made us weak and sinful.

God made us neither ‘weak’ nor ‘sinful’. Sin is a choice that each person gets to make – either to avoid it or to immerse oneself in it.

I can’t help feeling angry at God because of this.

“How dare you give me the opportunity to freely choose you or freely reject you, God! How dare you!!!”

Well apparently it is impossible to avoid sin(once you reach the age of reason).

Notice also, though, that God gave us a means to be forgiven of any sin, if we repent.

And why blame the creature and not the creator of the creature?

Because the creature has the free will to make his own reasoned choices.

Well how else would we have original sin? Didn’t God make us? He obviously chose to have us “inherit” original sin

We have the effects of sin not because sin is inherent in our nature, but because we’re given the freedom to choose. That brings both gift and responsibility. It’s a ‘gift’ because it means that we can choose to love. It’s a ‘responsibility’ because we bear the consequences of our free choices.

He is God isn’t he? He chooses how things will be. He is in control.

And He chose to share that ‘control’ with us.

He chose to make sin be passed on from Adam and Eve to us.

Thought experiment: if ‘original sin’ didn’t exist, are you saying that you yourself wouldn’t ever sin?

 

[rosejmj]

I don’t know. But it would be a lot easier to not sin. And if I chose to sin if I were not weak and inclined to sin, I would understand why I am culpable

 

[midori]

A third of the angels fell because of pride and choosing to rebel.

If angels, who were so much more intelligent and perfect than we are, who understood the repercussions of their choice, chose to rebel anyways— why do you think it would be easier for you to choose not to sin if only you saw more clearly and didn’t have the inclination?

The difference is, the angels didn’t get a chance to take it back. That’s what comes along with intelligence and perfection.

We’re just a bunch of toddlers who stumble along and do our best with what we have. And we make a lot of mistakes. And we don’t think things through very clearly. And we’re surprised when the obvious happens. And we make the same mistakes over and over and over and over again, because obviously, the lesson didn’t sink in to not-do-that.

And so God is much more merciful to us toddlers. He gives us a thousand more opportunities to correct ourselves, to cooperate with his grace, to backtrack and try again. He gave us the Incarnation. If all Jesus had to do to save us was die, why didn’t he just let Herod kill him and be done with it? But instead, he stuck around, because he didn’t just die, but he also taught. So suddenly, someone who’s above and beyond the angels becomes a little toddler like us, to spell things out more plainly, and give us a bit more guidance in our path. And then, to top it off, he dies a cruel and violent death on our behalf. If all that was necessary was a little blood-- that could be done in any number of ways. If death was necessary-- people die every day in much nicer, more comfortable ways. But the shock and violence is supposed to show us what sin does to our souls, and how horrible it is. Sin isn’t polite and tidy and neat.

Why would I be angry at such a God who has done so much already?

 

[rosejmj]

And he chose to die a cruel death- he didn’t have to, we didn’t ask him to… And then we are supposed to be so grateful? God didn’t have to save us, but why would he even make us if we were all going to hell?

 

[midori]

I was reading a thing from the Cure d’Ars the other night–

My children, there is so little faith now in the world that people either hope too much, or they despair. Some say, “I have done too much evil; the good God cannot pardon me.” My children, this is a great blasphemy; it is putting a limit to the mercy of God, which has no limit – it is infinite. You may have done evil enough to lose the souls of a whole parish, and if you confess, if you are sorry for having done this evil, and resolve not to do it again, the good God will have pardoned you.

A priest was once preaching on hope, and on the mercy of the good God. He reassured others, but he himself despaired. After the sermon, a young man presented himself, saying, “Father, I am come to confess to you.”

The priest answered, “I am willing to hear your confession.” The other recounted his sins, after which he added, “Father, I have done much evil; I am lost!”

“What do you say, my friend! We must never despair!”

The young man rose, saying, “Father, you wish me not to despair, and what do you do?”

This was a ray of light; the priest, all astonishment, drove away that thought of despair, became a religious and a great saint… The good God had sent him an angel under the form of a young man, to show him that we must never despair. The good God is as prompt to grant us pardon when we ask it of Him as a mother is to snatch her child out of the fire.

 

[MysticalMiracle]

Luke 22:42 - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

You should understand that Jesus was not given the luxury of choosing how He would die for us. His death on the cross was necessary for us to have a chance of eternal life with God! Just contemplate being forever joyful; not having to worry about suffering of any kind. I think we ought to be grateful! We have the ability to discern right and wrong. We can choose not to yield to the desires of the flesh. So hell is avoidable not inevitable.

 

[Irishmom2]

And he chose to die a cruel death- he didn’t have to, we didn’t ask him to… And then we are supposed to be so grateful? God didn’t have to save us, but why would he even make us if we were all going to hell?

Are you being serious? I can’t believe you are writing thing like this on Easter Sunday of all days.