God's fault we are sinners?

[CRV]

And he chose to die a cruel death- he didn’t have to, we didn’t ask him to… And then we are supposed to be so grateful? God didn’t have to save us, but why would he even make us if we were all going to hell?

That’s right - he deliberately chose a cruel death in order to show us more clearly just how deeply and fully he loved us.
You’re right he didn’t have to choose to die in that way, but He did because as He said “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Quote taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible John 15:13. Just think if you were to do this for someone else, just how much you must love this other person, so much so that you would suffer in the hope that they would not have to suffer.
Hypothetical situation:- if you stole something and your friend took the legal fall for you to spare you having to go to goal, wouldn’t you be grateful?
Jesus suffered all he did for the forgiveness of sins, especially MORTAL sin which deserves hell. It was for the forgiveness of all sin - both venial and mortal, but only mortal merits hell.

Again, you’re right He didn’t have to save us. He chose to because He loves us. Think of a mother and child. The mother would offer herself in the place of her child to spare her child any suffering. The mother does this because she loves the child more than she loves her own life.

He made us because he loves us and He wants us to share in His divinity for all eternity, to share in His life fully. We are not automatically going to hell. A person goes to hell, so to speak, by committing a mortal sin after baptism and after reaching the age of reason. They freely choose to commit this mortal sin, knowing it is mortal and that’ll they’ll end up in hell if they die in that state.

 

[Isearch]

Only mortal sin merits hell. Venial sin does not. As Jesus said to Peter, “My grace is sufficient for you”.

rosejmj:

According to the Council of Florence (an infallible ecumenical council according to Roman Catholics), original sin alone is damnable.

 

[goout]

I still cant help but blame God.
…

Yes, you can help it. You are making a choice to blame God for your own responsibilities. And in the context of your question you are asking why we should be accountable for our choices.

Do you see the problem?

 

[Gorgias]

if I chose to sin if I were not weak and inclined to sin, I would understand why I am culpable

So… if you were “weak and inclined to fall off a bicycle”, and you fell off while you were learning to ride one, then you’d say it wasn’t your fault you fell?

 

[sudy]

God gives us a way of escape, too… 1 Corinthians 10:13 As we draw closer to God, God draws closer to us and gives us more grace. If you don’t believe it, check out this thread How long do Catholics normally go without committing mortal sin? to see how many Catholics are avoiding Mortally sinning.

 

[rosejmj]

I am not talking necessarily about mortal sin, but sin and imperfection in general. We will be judged on it and suffer in purgatory for these things even though to a certain extent these things are unavoidable

 

[sudy]

You needn’t think of purgatory as suffering… it’s suffering for want of God. It’s more of a cleansing… getting rid of anything unworthy of heaven. Mercy will be given to those who are merciful. Love covers a multitude of sins.

God didn’t make us with sin… it’s more like inheriting a disorder from a parent. God gives us every grace to avoid sin. He loves You and he died for You. Your baptism washed away original sin. All we are left with is the inclination to sin, which is not the same as being in a state of sin.

 

[CRV]

According to the Council of Florence (an infallible ecumenical council according to Roman Catholics), original sin alone is damnable.

Not sure what your asking here or where you intend this to lead, but from Session 6—6 July 1439 [Definition of the holy ecumenical synod of Florence] this is the paragraph I’m assuming you are referring to :- "Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. "

May I recommend you read Question 1. The Quality of Those Souls Who Depart This Life With Original Sin Only

I suggest you contact a theologian for further enlightenment on this subject. Perhaps others on this board can make recommendations.

God bless.

 

[Gorgias]

According to the Council of Florence (an infallible ecumenical council according to Roman Catholics), original sin alone is damnable.

I suspect that your reading of this text has left you a little confused. The catechism teaches that “original sin is called ‘sin’ only in an analogical sense: it is a sin ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed’ - a state and not an act,” and that the personal sin committed by our first human parents " affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state."

So, “original sin” doesn’t refer to any sin committed by us; it refers to the fallen human nature we possess. This fallen nature, on its own, is sufficient to prevent us from attaining to heaven.

So, when a Catholic says that “only mortal sin merits hell; venial sin doesn’t”, as @CRV wrote, that’s a true statement that addresses the question of sins personally committed. However, it does not address the notion of our fallen human nature: our state of having a fallen human nature warrants a loss of eternal bliss, as well.

 

[Neithan]

Sure, God is at fault for everything because he enabled everything. That doesn’t mean we aren’t also at fault, because we have a free choice, and we could have chosen otherwise in any given moment. Since hell is where we go when we want to get the hell away from God forever, that’s still a possibility, whether we blame God or not (or maybe, especially if we blame Him).

Satan probably blames God for his fall, too.

 

[awesomecatholic]

Humans were made with original sin. God gave us free will so we deserve hell when we know perfectly well something is a mortal sin. Those in hell chose to be there because they rejected God’s love.

 

[Thorolfr]

God made us neither ‘weak’ nor ‘sinful’. Sin is a choice that each person gets to make – either to avoid it or to immerse oneself in it.

Our actions might be a choice, but that doesn’t mean that we’re responsible for the inclinations that might lead us to make bad choices. Not everyone is created equal with all the same inclinations. Some people have a lot more bad inclinations than others, inclinations for which they are often not responsible. Someone, for example, might be genetically more predisposed to alcoholism and therefore find it more difficult not to drink to excess. Someone might have a choice over whether to drink an alcoholic beverage, but not everyone is as likely based on their genes to drink to excess. So, that means that some people have had greater burdens placed upon them than upon others. And since this is not the individuals fault, why isn’t it God’s fault?

 

[Latin]

rosejmj:

It seems really unfair and it doesn’t make sense to me why we are blamed for being sinners when God made us like that.

But God didn’t make us like that. God make us good. Sin and the concupiscence to sin entered our human nature through Adam and Eve grave sin of eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. God is not reponsible for the sins we commit, because we freely choose to do them. God will not override our free will because he love us too much, and wants us to love him (obeying His laws etc) of our own free will/our choosing.

1 Cor.4:7; … What do you have that you did not receive? … – Meaning, we have absolutely nothing what we did not received from God.
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As we above CRV, we have nothing what God did not infused into us, no virtue, no love, no inclination to sin, no desire to go to heaven, etc.

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If God would willed, He could create this world and us where evil and sin has no place.
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Some Christians think, we have here on this earth the dramas of evil and sin because we have free will, yet free will is nothing to do with it, we will have free will in heaven and no one will commit even a smallest act of sin.

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God wills to take the human race in this world to ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin.

This is above the only reason God designed/ planned and preordained the “fall” of Adam and Eve and infused us with the inclinations of sin.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[po18guy]

Short answer: No.

We choose to sin. We are inclined toward sin as a matter of the fall from grace. Using pretzel logic, you may “blame” God for giving us freedom- but, be careful there, since we must have that same freedom in order to choose to love God.

God is huge on freedom - a very good thing indeed.

 

[Latin]

OUR UNAIDED FREE WILL IS ONLY GOOD FOR LYING AND SIN

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott,

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.)

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.) – This is the correct understanding of our free will.

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good . . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.
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As we see above, this is the correct understanding of free will.
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God bless

 

[CRV]

We did not receive the inclination to sin from God. This was the effect from the sin of Adam and Eve.

It means what “goods” as in the virtues, (and temporal things are also gifts from God) we have received all from God, because without God we can do nothing. All good ideas/inspirations/deeds etc are in us from Gods’ grace, which is the cause of all the good we do. On our own, we can do nothing except sin.

God did not infuse into us the inclination to sin. That is concupiscence to sin which is the effect from Adam & Eves sin.

If God would willed, He could create this world and us where evil and sin has no place.

Sin entered as a result of the first sin which was committed by Adam and Eve.

God wills to take the human race in this world to ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin.

No He didn’t and doesn’t. As Jesus said, His grace is sufficient for us. We can choose to speak uncharitably to another or we can choose to co-operate with His grace and speak kindly instead. The choice is ours. He gave us free will.

This is above the only reason God designed/ planned and preordained the “fall” of Adam and Eve and infused us with the inclinations of sin.

God did not plan the fall of Adam and Eve, he gave them free will to choose to do right or wrong.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

The full section you’ve quoted from www.newadvent.org reads:- “In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty , acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin , He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created. “ (BOLD and italics are mine.) Example - The evil of Jesus dying on the cross – God has brought the ultimate Good from – the redemption/salvation of souls. So God can and does bring Good out of evil.

There is His Active Will and His Permissive Will. God does not Will evil – he permits it to happen for his own reasons/ends and because He gave us free will. He respects our choices to sin or not.

May I recommend you read The Will of God and to help explain the effects of original sin and concupiscence please read Original Sin

God bless.

 

[Latin]

Catholic Encyclopedia: Evil
But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite power God could always create something better.
But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection.
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314 … Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”, will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.

302 The universe was created in a state of journeying (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
God protects and governs all things which he has made.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza
Page 113; “However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”
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God willed that Adam and Eve sin and if He would not cause that Adam and Eve sin, he could not create this world with the dramas of evil and sin.

God willed to bring us the ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin.

So, God had to create the dramas of evil and sin, by to cause the “fall” of Adam and Eve and He had to infuse us with the inclinations of sin, otherwise would be no dramas of evil and sin .

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe .

As we see above, the Divine will is cause of all things , the cause of the event of the “fall” and the cause of the event of our infusion with the inclinations to sin. – Plain and simple, God is the cause of all/ every event.
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God bless

 

[Psalm30]

He chose to make sin be passed on from Adam and Eve to us.

You are extremely misguided by this notion. God DIDN’T choose to make sin be passed on from Adam and Eve to us. It was passed on as the natural consequence of their sin.

God died a horrible death on the cross — paying the price of our sins, when He was completely innocent — so we sinners can live forever in heaven and escape the eternal consequences of our sins. If He really could have just made us be born without original sin, why wouldn’t He go that route rather than subject Himself to a horrific death by crucifixion?

 

[Psalm30]

God is huge on freedom - a very good thing indeed.

Right. God is perfect love, and love doesn’t force relationships. Would you want to be married to someone who doesn’t like you and doesn’t want to be married to you? Or be friends with someone who doesn’t want to be friends with you? Love allows for the freedom to choose. But there are consequences to those choices.

 

[CRV]

A Brief explanation of Gods permissive Will and active Will - excerpt:- “Calvin and some others fail to understand permissive will, and fall into the trap of assigning all causes to God. Ultimately, it makes God the author of evil, which cannot be.”

CCC #396-#406 III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Man’s first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

continuing on below …