God's foreknowledge and fatalism

[Bahman]

This is a twisted and long proof so please be patient with me. The proof is given in two parts. We first discuss God’s foreknowledge and free will. Then define the fate and conclude that foreknowledge indeed leads to fatalism.

God’s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve. Lets consider two individual, X and Y (a pair of identical twine for simplicity). The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge. Assume that X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell. These two individual are however free to act and there is no tension between God’s foreknowledge and free will as far as they are not aware of God’s foreknowledge.

Now lets exchange X by Y and vice versa. This means that this time Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell (we use God’s foreknowledge here). This means that there exist a certain element of reality that we cannot avoid it, so called fate, once you are attached to it, although you are free you have to face the brute fact that you cannot change it so called fatalism.

 

[dshix]

This is a twisted and long proof so please be patient with me. The proof is given in two parts. We first discuss God’s foreknowledge and free will. Then define the fate and conclude that foreknowledge indeed leads to fatalism.

God’s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve. Lets consider two individual, X and Y (a pair of identical twine for simplicity). The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge. Assume that X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell. These two individual are however free to act and there is no tension between God’s foreknowledge and free will as far as they are not aware of God’s foreknowledge.

Now lets exchange X by Y and vice versa. This means that this time Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell (we use God’s foreknowledge here). This means that there exist a certain element of reality that we cannot avoid it, so called fate, once you are attached to it, although you are free you have to face the brute fact that you cannot change it so called fatalism.

Everything in your post was a continuous train of thought which I could follow, until the bolded statement, in which you make a conclusion which does not follow from the previous sentences. You need to prove the bolded statement with premises that actually lead to it.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This is a twisted and long proof so please be patient with me. The proof is given in two parts. We first discuss God’s foreknowledge and free will. Then define the fate and conclude that foreknowledge indeed leads to fatalism.

God’s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve. Lets consider two individual, X and Y (a pair of identical twine for simplicity). The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge. Assume that X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell. These two individual are however free to act and there is no tension between God’s foreknowledge and free will as far as they are not aware of God’s foreknowledge.

Now lets exchange X by Y and vice versa. This means that this time Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell (we use God’s foreknowledge here). This means that there exist a certain element of reality that we cannot avoid it, so called fate, once you are attached to it, although you are free you have to face the brute fact that you cannot change it so called fatalism.

Your plotting paper will not give you the answer. God forsees our future acts because he is eternal and, for him, we have already done them. He does not make us do them. Therefore we are free.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

Everything in your post was a continuous train of thought which I could follow, until the bolded statement, in which you make a conclusion which does not follow from the previous sentences. You need to prove the bolded statement with premises that actually lead to it.

The bold part is the consequence of exchanging the twine. Please let me know if you need further explanation.

 

[smichhertz]

This is a twisted and long proof so please be patient with me. The proof is given in two parts. We first discuss God’s foreknowledge and free will. Then define the fate and conclude that foreknowledge indeed leads to fatalism.

God’s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve. Lets consider two individual, X and Y (a pair of identical twine for simplicity). The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge. Assume that X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell. These two individual are however free to act and there is no tension between God’s foreknowledge and free will as far as they are not aware of God’s foreknowledge.

Now lets exchange X by Y and vice versa. This means that this time Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell (we use God’s foreknowledge here). This means that there exist a certain element of reality that we cannot avoid it, so called fate, once you are attached to it, although you are free you have to face the brute fact that you cannot change it so called fatalism.

The bolded part is your error. What do you mean by “exchange”? If you mean that X freely makes all the decisions Y made in the previous example, and visa versa, then it is not fatalism. They both are still free to make their own decisions.

Let me rephrase your scenario another way to make it clear how the conclusion does not follow:

Let’s say X makes only good decisions. X dies and goes to Heaven.
Let’s say Y makes only evil decisions. Y dies and goes to Hell.

Now let’s say X actually makes only evil decisions and Y only makes good decisions. Then X goes to Hell and Y goes to Heaven. Even though they both freely made their own decisions in either case…fatalism?

Hope that helps!

 

[Bahman]

Your plotting paper will not give you the answer. God forsees our future acts because he is eternal and, for him, we have already done them. He does not make us do them. Therefore we are free.

Linus2nd

As usual you are attacking me without understanding the content. Could you simply explain to me why you should go to Heaven and I should go to Hell? In simple word what makes you really you? Would you exchange your real being with mine so I can go to heaven and you go to hell? Don’t you see the contradiction?

 

[dshix]

The bold part is the consequence of exchanging the twine. Please let me know if you need further explanation.

Non sequitur. Simply stating that we “don’t understand the content” does not actually make your argument any stronger because your argument has no substance until you explain it coherently. No argument has any value until it is explain in such a way that the intended audience understands it.

 

[Bahman]

The bolded part is your error. What do you mean by “exchange”? If you mean that X freely makes all the decisions Y made in the previous example, and visa versa, then it is not fatalism. They both are still free to make their own decisions.

Let me rephrase your scenario another way to make it clear how the conclusion does not follow:

Let’s say X makes only good decisions. X dies and goes to Heaven.
Let’s say Y makes only evil decisions. Y dies and goes to Hell.

Now let’s say X actually makes only evil decisions and Y only makes good decisions. Then X goes to Hell and Y goes to Heaven. Even though they both freely made their own decisions in either case…fatalism?

Hope that helps!

No, we need to exchange them to make sure Y is facing the same situations as X used to otherwise our judgment about each person is biased by situation. Hence we need a twin and we need to exchange them. Now answer this question: What happen for God’s foreknowledge if we exchange the twin?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

As usual you are attacking me without understanding the content. Could you simply explain to me why you should go to Heaven and I should go to Hell? In simple word what makes you really you? Would you exchange your real being with mine so I can go to heaven and you go to hell? Don’t you see the contradiction?

Bahaman, a person goes to Heaven because they accept God on His terms. A person goes to Hell because they reject God and His terms. What makes me Me is the soul that God gave me at conception, and then all the decisions I make throughout the course of my life. I could not change souls with you any more than I could change bodies with you, or occupy the same space that you do. It is not possible.

God can’t force us to make a decision, that would violate our free will, which he would never do. When considering fatalism, you have to keep in mind that fatalism only comes into play if time is a linear sequence. To us, time proceeds from one moment to the next, so that’s the only way we’re really able to understand it. God is not subject to the flow of time, he is outside of it. Everything we that we experience as a sequence of events is happening at once to Him. God knows our choices because we have already made then, and are int he process of making them, and will make them all at once.

It is certainly hard to grasp, but that doesn’t make it wrong. As I tell you every time I respond to your posts, you need to study more and stop wasting time trying to come up with your own “proofs.” You don’t know enough to start formulating your own philosophies yet.

 

[smichhertz]

No, we need to exchange them to make sure Y is facing the same situations as X used to otherwise our judgment about each person is biased by situation. Hence we need a twin and we need to exchange them. Now answer this question: What happen for God’s foreknowledge if we exchange the twin?

I can’t follow what you’re saying here - just because X faces the same situations as Y and visa versa doesn’t mean that they’ll make the same decisions.

So please clarify what you mean when you say “exchange”. Do you mean that X and Y will automatically make exactly the same decisions as the other? Or do you mean that they will simply face the same situations as the other did?

 

[Bahman]

Non sequitur. Simply stating that we “don’t understand the content” does not actually make your argument any stronger because your argument has no substance until you explain it coherently. No argument has any value until it is explain in such a way that the intended audience understands it.

Ok, then I ask this question: What happen for God’s foreknowledge when we exchange the twine? Nothing: Hence, fatalism is true! Or God’s foreknowledge changes: how it could change when the content of creation doesn’t change!

 

[dshix]

Ok, then I ask this question: What happen for God’s foreknowledge when we exchange the twine? Nothing: Hence, fatalism is true! Or God’s foreknowledge changes: how it could change when the content of creation doesn’t change!

You ask a question once again not even being clear on what you mean. You said “exchange the twine”. What does that mean? Does it mean that persons X and Y exchange each other’s actions? Exchange their personalities? Exchange their souls? Exchange what?

You need to start foreseeing the parts of your argument which are unclear to facilitate worthwhile discussion.

 

[Bahman]

I can’t follow what you’re saying here - just because X faces the same situations as Y and visa versa doesn’t mean that they’ll make the same decisions.

So please clarify what you mean when you say “exchange”. Do you mean that X and Y will automatically make exactly the same decisions as the other? Or do you mean that they will simply face the same situations as the other did?

Lets assume that X and Y are facing the same situation and make their own decisions. Can they make free different decisions? Yes. This is called a fork when an identical situation leads to different outcome hence God’s knowledge is subject to this branching meaning that it is not fixed and unique, in another word there is no foreknowledge.

For sake of simplicity lets stick to one person. Lets assume that a person make a decision which coincide with God’s knowledge. Now rewind the time and lets the person decide again. Can the person make different decision this time? Yes: God does not have foreknowledge. No: Fatalism is true.

 

[Bahman]

You ask a question once again not even being clear on what you mean. You said “exchange the twine”. What does that mean? Does it mean that persons X and Y exchange each other’s actions? Exchange their personalities? Exchange their souls? Exchange what?

You need to start foreseeing the parts of your argument which are unclear to facilitate worthwhile discussion.

Just simply exchange two persons. Twine forms different personality when they become older hence we need to exchange them when they are very young so we get ride of bias introduced by personality, life experience, etc.

 

[Bahman]

Bahaman, a person goes to Heaven because they accept God on His terms. A person goes to Hell because they reject God and His terms. What makes me Me is the soul that God gave me at conception, and then all the decisions I make throughout the course of my life. I could not change souls with you any more than I could change bodies with you, or occupy the same space that you do. It is not possible.

I don’t like such a deal. I am not responsible for coming into this world and I have to face many brute deals which I am facing. I am not free to decide since I don’t know which one is real! I don’t know how you made your free decision on your faith without any prejudice! Hence, I will try to find my own way without attaching to any false belief. How they all could be right?

Please find an answer to the rest of your comment in post #13.

God can’t force us to make a decision, that would violate our free will, which he would never do. When considering fatalism, you have to keep in mind that fatalism only comes into play if time is a linear sequence. To us, time proceeds from one moment to the next, so that’s the only way we’re really able to understand it. God is not subject to the flow of time, he is outside of it. Everything we that we experience as a sequence of events is happening at once to Him. God knows our choices because we have already made then, and are int he process of making them, and will make them all at once.

Would you make the same decision if we rewind the time?

It is certainly hard to grasp, but that doesn’t make it wrong. As I tell you every time I respond to your posts, you need to study more and stop wasting time trying to come up with your own “proofs.” You don’t know enough to start formulating your own philosophies yet.

What is the point of living if we all are supposed to have the same point of view? One person and one God. Didi I ask too much? Oh yes, one God is enough. What would the purpose of a living person sucking life and believing what God requests. What is the purpose? Such a selfishness!

 

[dshix]

Just simply exchange two persons. Twine forms different personality when they become older hence we need to exchange them when they are very young so we get ride of bias introduced by personality, life experience, etc.

It is impossible to have a discussion when you speak incoherently and fail to even describe your own point of view.

You did not answer my question.

 

[Lucy107]

Could you simply explain to me why you should go to Heaven and I should go to Hell? In simple word what makes you really you? Would you exchange your real being with mine so I can go to heaven and you go to hell? Don’t you see the contradiction?

First carefully study the doctrine of heaven and hell,
and then ask questions.

Otherwise you’re just going to confuse yourself.

 

[Bahman]

It is impossible to have a discussion when you speak incoherently and fail to even describe your own point of view.

Where I was incoherent? I explain myself again: Consider a twine that one goes to heaven and another goes to hell based on their decision. Now, exchange them, and let them do things from scratch again. Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

You did not answer my question.

I did. Just exchange them. By this I mean the exchanged one has life experiences which the other has and vice versa.

 

[Bahman]

First carefully study the doctrine of heaven and hell,
and then ask questions.

What is this doctrine?

Otherwise you’re just going to confuse yourself.

I think I am very clear to myself.

 

[Bahman]

You here again without making any argument.