God's foreknowledge and fatalism

[dshix]

Where I was incoherent? I explain myself again: Consider a twine that one goes to heaven and another goes to hell based on their decision. Now, exchange them, and let them do things from scratch again. Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

I did. Just exchange them. By this I mean the exchanged one has life experiences which the other has and vice versa.

Ok, the confusion lay in what you meant by “exchange” them. So, if the person X who went to Heaven was switched in all his actions with the person Y who went to Hell, then yes, person Y would now go to Heaven and person X to Hell. It is our behaviors which define where we go, not predestination.

 

[Bahman]

Ok, the confusion lay in what you meant by “exchange” them. So, if the person X who went to Heaven was switched in all his actions with the person Y who went to Hell, then yes, person Y would now go to Heaven and person X to Hell. It is our behaviors which define where we go, not predestination.

Oh well, you are concluding very fast. The question was whether the exchanged person is going to make the same decision as the other in the new position or not?

 

[dshix]

Oh well, you are concluding very fast. The question was whether the exchanged person is going to make the same decision as the other in the new position or not?

That question cannot be answered unless we determine that the two persons X and Y are wholly equivalent in personality and starting conditions. We can, perhaps, guarantee the latter, but we cannot guarantee equivalent personality because every soul is different.

 

[smichhertz]

Lets assume that X and Y are facing the same situation and make their own decisions. Can they make free different decisions? Yes. This is called a fork when an identical situation leads to different outcome hence God’s knowledge is subject to this branching meaning that it is not fixed and unique, in another word there is no foreknowledge.

For sake of simplicity lets stick to one person. Lets assume that a person make a decision which coincide with God’s knowledge. Now rewind the time and lets the person decide again. Can the person make different decision this time? Yes: God does not have foreknowledge. No: Fatalism is true.

How is the person able to rewind time? Why can God not have foreknowledge of the fork? If you rewind and make the same decision how is that fatalism? It’s still a free decision!

 

[Bahman]

That question cannot be answered unless we determine that the two persons X and Y are wholly equivalent in personality and starting conditions. We can, perhaps, guarantee the latter, but we cannot guarantee equivalent personality because every soul is different.

Well, lets assume that have the same personality.

I have another scenario if you don’t like the above assumption. Consider your course of life. Now just rewind the time to any point you wish and tell me if you are going to make the same decisions as you did if you are given this chance?

 

[Bahman]

How is the person able to rewind time?

You just need to imagine it for sake of argument.

Why can God not have foreknowledge of the fork?

Because the foreknowledge is one. You cannot have two different future.

**If you rewind and make the same decision **how is that fatalism?

That is the very definition of fatalism (the bold part).

It’s still a free decision!

How it could be if it is the same?

 

[smichhertz]

You just need to imagine it for sake of argument.

Because the foreknowledge is one. You cannot have two different future.

That is the very definition of fatalism (the bold part).

How it could be if it is the same?

1. No person can rewind time so this is an impossible scenario.
2. No, foreknowledge is not one. God can know both forks.
3. No, fatalism implies either the person is forced to make a decision, or ends up the same regardless of their decision. Neither is the case here.
4. Because it’s still a free decision. If I make a free decision at a particular point in space time. My ability to “rewind” back to that point does not change the fact that it was a free decision.

I’m going to echo what other users have already been saying - you’re getting very confused on very basic levels of philosophy here. I’d recommend taking some time to brush up on some more basic concepts of philosophy - particularly Aristotlean logic as a starting point.

In any case I wish you all the best!

 

[Bahman]

1. No person can rewind time so this is an impossible scenario.

I said just imagine it for sake of argument.

1. No, foreknowledge is not one. God can know both forks.

How could we have two different futures both waiting to happen!?

1. No, fatalism implies either the person is forced to make a decision, or ends up the same regardless of their decision. Neither is the case here.

The fatalism exactly means that you are going to make the very same decision if you rewind the time. Are you going to make the same decision?

1. Because it’s still a free decision. If I make a free decision at a particular point in space time. My ability to “rewind” back to that point does not change the fact that it was a free decision.

The freedom exactly means that you may make the different decision if you rewind the time. Are you free?

I’m going to echo what other users have already been saying - you’re getting very confused on very basic levels of philosophy here. I’d recommend taking some time to brush up on some more basic concepts of philosophy - particularly Aristotlean logic as a starting point.

In any case I wish you all the best!

Thanks for your advice. I don’t depend on what people think about me as I am very clear to myself.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

As usual you are attacking me without understanding the content. Could you simply explain to me why you should go to Heaven and I should go to Hell? In simple word what makes you really you? Would you exchange your real being with mine so I can go to heaven and you go to hell? Don’t you see the contradiction?

I am not " attacking " you, I am attempting to show that your mode of explanatin is deficient and your logic is incorrect because your primesses are always wrong and because you cannot distinguisn between God’s eternal " now " and our finite natures.

And now you have raised a red herring that has nothing to do with anything. I do not know my future destination, so how would I know yours? So neither of us should be willing to trade our existence for that of the other.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

I am not " attacking " you, I am attempting to show that your mode of explanatin is deficient and your logic is incorrect because your primesses are always wrong and because you cannot distinguisn between God’s eternal " now " and our finite natures.

You just don’t like my reasoning because it leads to a place you don’t like. Show me where my logic is wrong. Take it easy dude. We are in the process of learning.

And now you have raised a red herring that has nothing to do with anything. I do not know my future destination, so how would I know yours? So neither of us should be willing to trade our existence for that of the other.

Linus2nd

You can at least imagine it. That doesn’t cost you anything. How could we define divine justice if you go to heaven and I go to hell and if we cannot resolve the above mentioned situation? God needs to convince me that you deserve heaven over hell and vice versa for me.

 

[Lucy107]

What is this doctrine?

If you have to ask - then start a thread and request that some of the more advanced members explain it to you and direct you to the relevant textual resources.

 

[Bahman]

If you have to ask - then start a thread and request that some of the more advanced members explain it to you and direct you to the relevant textual resources.

I wish whether you can define it to me in simple terms here because it is very related.

 

[Lucy107]

I wish whether you can define it to me in simple terms here because it is very related.

I think that the doctrine is complex and that if one doesn’t want to get one’s mind in a knot, it’s better to thoroughly study it first before trying to analyze it.
And it would probably take more than a few forum posts to explain it.
Ask the more advanced posters.

 

[Bookcat]

God’s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve.

The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge…

Nope.

God is outside of time.

It is not so much that he “forsees” that he has “foreknowedge” – but that he “sees” that all of time is before him at once. He is outside of time.

Our “past, present, future” is all before him - in their immediacy.

My birth, my death, my typing on this computer, the fall of Rome, the Moon landing are all present before God who is outside of time.

So talking about God’s “foreknowledge” is leave the gate in the wrong direction.

Catechism:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.” (CCC 600)

 

[oldcelt]

Nope.

God is outside of time.

It is not so much that he “forsees” that he has “foreknowedge” – but that he “sees” that all of time is before him at once. He is outside of time.

Our “past, present, future” is all before him - in their immediacy.

My birth, my death, my typing on this computer, the fall of Rome, the Moon landing are all present before God who is outside of time.

So talking about God’s “foreknowledge” is leave the gate in the wrong direction.

Catechism:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.” (CCC 600)

God was absolutely free to create or not to create, and to create the present or any possible world. This is an article of Catholic Faith defined by the Vatican Council (Can., De Deo Creante, v). It is the explicit teaching of Scripture, God “worketh all things according to the counsel of his will” (Ephesians 1:11), and of the Fathers generally. It is an obvious rational deduction from the infinitude and absolute self-sufficiency of God. The creative act, as a subjective aspect of the Divine Will, is necessary, but the external positing of a term is free. This doctrine of creative freedom excludes the exaggerated optimism of Leibniz and others, who held that God was bound to create the best possible world. The Divine act must be perfect, but the effect need not, and indeed cannot, be absolutely perfect; the creature being necessarily finite, a more perfect creature is always possible and creatable by infinite power. The world is the very best possible for the Creator’s purpose; it is relatively, not absolutely, perfect.

It seems that the only response anyone here can give is the out of time idea. But that does not change omniscience in the creative act. The Christian God knew, at the moment he spoke the world into existence, precisely what would happen on every level. That includes our fate as individuals.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You just don’t like my reasoning because it leads to a place you don’t like. Show me where my logic is wrong. Take it easy dude. We are in the process of learning.

Correction. You are in that process.

You can at least imagine it. That doesn’t cost you anything. How could we define divine justice if you go to heaven and I go to hell and if we cannot resolve the above mentioned situation? God needs to convince me that you deserve heaven over hell and vice versa for me.

God doesn’t owe us an explanation. If I go to hell I will know why without having to be told. And that will be the same with everyone. Although I suspect we will have to be told why we wind up in heaven.

Linus2nd

 

[Nixbits]

I’m intrigued by what several posters (Linusthe2nd, ProdglArchitect, BookCat) have mentioned about God being ‘outside of time’.

I can understand that God, as the Creator of all things, is deemed to be outside of the flow of time that we experience in the physical world. But how do we know anything about how, or even if, time is experienced by God? Just because something is outside our time does not necessarily make it timeless. Where does this idea come from? Could someone please enlighten me.

 

[Bahman]

Nope.

God is outside of time.

It is not so much that he “forsees” that he has “foreknowedge” – but that he “sees” that all of time is before him at once. He is outside of time.

Our “past, present, future” is all before him - in their immediacy.

My birth, my death, my typing on this computer, the fall of Rome, the Moon landing are all present before God who is outside of time.

So talking about God’s “foreknowledge” is leave the gate in the wrong direction.

Catechism:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.” (CCC 600)

Thanks for your confirmation. Hence there is only one foreknowledge/foresee. Needless to say that I knew what you mentioned but you didn’t address my objection. If we have a twine one goes to heaven and another to hell then what happen if we exchange them exactly after the point of conception: Does God foresee changes or it stay the same? Yes. How it could change? Twines are identical. No. Divine justice is ill-defined.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for your confirmation. .

I did not give you a confirmation but corrected the misunderstanding.

It is NOT about God “foreseeing” - understanding that answers your question.

God is outside of time. He is not in time to “forsee” he “sees” all of creation -at once. All moments of time (as we live them) are present to God. It is not about “foreseeing”.

 

[Bahman]

Correction. You are in that process.

Good for me and bad for you. Reality has infinite folds and I am keen to learn one thing new each day.

God doesn’t owe us an explanation. If I go to hell I will know why without having to be told. And that will be the same with everyone. Although I suspect we will have to be told why we wind up in heaven.

Linus2nd

That does not make sense even in our earthly judiciary system! No need to say that our judiciary system is absolute rubbish.