God's foreknowledge and fatalism

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oldcelt said:
Good one Tony.šŸ˜ƒ
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Thanks, John. I had a rare moment of inspiration but if we struggle long enough itā€™s bound to happen. Iā€™m an optimist now after being a pessimist for half of my life. šŸ˜‰
 
tonyrey said:
Thanks, John. I had a rare moment of inspiration but if we struggle long enough itā€™s bound to happen. Iā€™m an optimist now after being a pessimist for half of my life. šŸ˜‰
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Good choiceā€¦me too.
 
Bahman said:
Lets call it X! Do you agree twine ends up in different places if God sees things in his eternal now?
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God sees the choices of each. So he sees them end up where they each choose in the freshness of their choice. And the fall of Rome!
 
Bookcat said:
Nope not a play written in advanceā€¦

The instant of creation, and my typing now and my eating toast with peanut butter just a moment ago are all present to God outside of time - as is all else ā€œof timeā€.

Including my free choice to eat that peanut butter and toast.

Again the confusion is one is still speaking as if God is not outside of time.
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Godā€™s existence, Godā€™s knowledge and the act of creation are the same. Arenā€™t they? God is however timeless. How creation could be time bound?
 
Bookcat said:
God sees the choices of each. So he sees them end up where they each choose in the freshness of their choice. And the fall of Rome!
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šŸ‘ God certainly wouldnā€™t create us as slaves because He knows the greatest gift we can receive is freedomā€¦
 
Bahman said:
Do they end up in different place?
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We end up beyond time and space, united to - or isolated from - God and all those who love Him. We determine our own destiny for better or for worse, fully aware of the consequences of our final decision.

Fatalism is an incoherent, self-contradictory doctrine. Our Creator isnā€™t a slave and neither are we!
 
tonyrey said:
We end up beyond time and space, united to - or isolated from - God and all those who love Him. We determine our own destiny for better or for worse, fully aware of the consequences of our final decision.

Fatalism is an incoherent, self-contradictory doctrine. Our Creator isnā€™t a slave and neither are we!
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So we are here to make a deal?
 
Bahman said:
If we have two twins- one goes to heaven and another to hell then what happen if we exchange them exactly after the point of conception
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Twin A: is Thomas - he chooses heaven.
Twin B: is Bart - he chooses hell.

Switch places:

Twin A: is Bart -he chooses hell.
Twin B: is Thomas - he chooses heaven.

Just just pick up one twin from one spot in the womb and changing the other spot. That change too is seen by God, as the the moment of conception, of the fall of Rome, of their respective deaths, and the Moon Landing -in its freshness.

Heaven and hell will involve their free personal choiceā€¦
 
Bookcat said:
**Twin A: is Thomas - he chooses heaven.
Twin B: is Bart - he chooses hell.

Switch places:

Twin A: is Bart -he chooses hell.
Twin B: is Thomas - he chooses heaven**.

Just just pick up one twin from one spot in the womb and changing the other spot. That change too is seen by God, as the the moment of conception, of the fall of Rome, of their respective deaths, and the Moon Landing -in its freshness.

Heaven and hell will involve their free personal choiceā€¦
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You are wrong (bold part). Bart is supposed to have life experience that Thomas used to have and vice versa hence Bart couldnā€™t possibly end up in the hell after the exchange.
 
Bahman said:
So we are here to make a deal?
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You can look at it like that. šŸ™‚ The alternative is to believe there is no reason why we exist but such a philosophy leads us precisely nowhere. It is also self-refuting. If there is no reason for anything there is no reason for believing there is no reason for anything! In other words we have cut our throats from an intellectual point of viewā€¦ The only solution for the sceptic is to keep his or her mouth shut - and fingers off the keyboardā€¦
 
Bahman said:
You are wrong (bold part). Bart is supposed to have life experience that Thomas used to have and vice versa hence Bart couldnā€™t possibly end up in the hell after the exchange.
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Nope I am correct.

They just had a different spot in the womb.

They then lived their lives outside the womb. Thomas was Thomas and Bart was Bart and they made their free choices.

Heaven and hell is about persons.

The choice is made by a person.
 
Tis not fatalism. Tis free choice.

Persons can make free choices. Rocks cannot.
 
tonyrey said:
You can look at it like thatā€¦
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What if I say that wouldnā€™t please me! Why I should be given an existence and then asked for an unconditional love for a person who I have never met? Have you met God? Did he please you and nourish you with his love?
 
Bookcat said:
Nope I am correct.

They just had a different spot in the womb.

They then lived their lives outside the womb. Thomas was Thomas and Bart was Bart and they made their free choices.

Heaven and hell is about persons.

The choice is made by a person.
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Are you serious? You are changing what God sees.
 
Bahman said:
Are you serious? You are changing what God sees.
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God sees free choices as they come forth fresh - all moments of time are present to God. He is outside time.

God sees my free choices that I am making right now - together with those I am making at age 18 and those I am making at age 85.

God gives the splendid gift of freedom.
 
Bahman said:
This is a twisted and long proof so please be patient with me. The proof is given in two parts. We first discuss Godā€™s foreknowledge and free will. Then define the fate and conclude that foreknowledge indeed leads to fatalism.

Godā€™s foreknowledge is simply the knowledge of how creation evolve. Lets consider two individual, X and Y (a pair of identical twine for simplicity). The destiny of these two individuals are known within foreknowledge. Assume that X goes to Heaven and Y goes to Hell. These two individual are however free to act and there is no tension between Godā€™s foreknowledge and free will as far as they are not aware of Godā€™s foreknowledge.

Now lets exchange X by Y and vice versa. This means that this time Y goes to Heaven and X goes to Hell (we use Godā€™s foreknowledge here). This means that there exist a certain element of reality that we cannot avoid it, so called fate, once you are attached to it, although you are free you have to face the brute fact that you cannot change it so called fatalism.
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Bahman, your view of the universe is certainly bleak, it is not one I would choose. And it is one I am glad to say is not true.

Linus2nd
 
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