B
Bahman
Guest
Hold on. You changed the twine and God sees changed. I don’t think that this is good defense.
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B
Bookcat
Guest
Defense for what?
Tis reality. A person is a person. They have free will and can choose. There is no “fatalism”. You can change their place the person is in and they still have free will to choose they still have the gifts of nature and of grace etc. There is no “fatalism”.
B
Bahman
Guest
You changed the twine and God sees changed!
B
Bookcat
Guest
Ya so?
If I get in my car and drive to North Carolina - God sees that too. As well as my conception, my birth, the Fall of Rome, all my free choices etc…
Indeed he holds me in existence - and the car and the road…and North Carolina!
B
Bahman
Guest
They are identical. How Gods see could change if you change something which doesn’t make any difference?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Same way God sees that I am driving to North Carolina.
God sees and knows all. Nothing is hid from God - indeed all is held in its very existence by God etc.
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is not about “foreknowledge” - God is outside of time. It is not about “foreseeing” but ‘seeing’ and more.
There is no “fatalism” - Persons have free will.
Thus the thread would be at seem to be at an end.
There is no “fatalism” - Persons have free will.
Thus the thread would be at seem to be at an end.
B
Bahman
Guest
Can God make a difference between two identical things (twines for example)!?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes. Twins are not identical.
B
Bahman
Guest
They are identical from third person view but not from first person view.
B
Bookcat
Guest
B
Bahman
Guest
There is. That is very definition of twine. It happens when a cell divides by two each carry the same genetic code. I do believe that very essence of us, what makes person what really it is also is the same.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Tis a misnomer.* There are no fully twin persons.
*
Period.
Neither biologically nor personally.
Certainly and absolutely not.
B
Bahman
Guest
Ok, lets get another track. Suppose you are in a situation to choose between A and B where you like both of them equally. Suppose you choose A. Now rewind the time and tell me if you are free to choose between A and B and whether you choose the same or it is possible that you choose B too.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes I am free. I can exercise my free will in choosing either A or B. Or if I got taken in a time machine somehow back to that point - I could choose the other (though that cannot happen for there is no such thing)
B
Bahman
Guest
And what happen for God’s sees?
B
Bookcat
Guest
God sees all that is - all of reality - he sees my free choice as it comes forth freely.
Positing a theoretical - and NOT POSSIBLE - question of what would happen if one goes back in time and has that choice again - is just that - it is asking about an IMPOSSIBLE event -for there is no time machine. One cannot go back and make a different choice.
But if one could - God would yes see it all together. The original choice…the jumping in the time machine and the new choice – all together.
But again this is discussing a fictional not possible question. Like asking what would my fish do as a dog.
So really it is best to stick with reality.
Bottom line - I have free choice I can choose A or B.
B
Bahman
Guest
With this I assume that you meant that A and B are real and you are free to choose them. Aren’t they?
B
Bookcat
Guest
If I am faced with the choice -chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream. And they are there before me - A or B - yes they are real - I can choose either one. Or maybe both
(in moderation of course…)
B
Bahman
Guest
But according to God’s sees only one of them is real, the other one is an illusion and you can never reach it, hence we are left with two options: 1) God’s sees=fatalism 2) real options=freedom.If I am faced with the choice -chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream. And they are there before me - A or B - yes they are real - I can choose either one. Or maybe both
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