God's foreknowledge and fatalism

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Bookcat said:
I did not give you a confirmation but corrected the misunderstanding.

It is NOT about God “foreseeing” - understanding that answers your question.

God is outside of time. He is not in time to “forsee” he “sees” all of creation -at once. All moments of time (as we live them) are present to God. It is not about “foreseeing”.
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That I knew. You are not answering my question though? Does God foresee changes if a twine are exchanged?
 
Bahman said:
That I knew. You are not answering my question though? Does God foresee changes if a twine are exchanged?
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How can you say “that I knew” if in the next moment you ask a question that is contrary to what is stated as being known already?

I think you may be reading too fast -please go read again my answer.
 
Bahman said:
Good for me and bad for you.
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A conclusion without evidence.
Reality has infinite folds and I am keen to learn one thing new each day.

That does not make sense even in our earthly judiciary system! No need to say that our judiciary system is absolute rubbish.
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1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
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Bookcat said:
How can you say “that I knew” if in the next moment you ask a question that is contrary to what is stated as being known already?

I think you may be reading too fast -please go read again my answer.
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Could you please elaborate?
 
Bahman said:
Could you please elaborate?
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It is NOT about God “foreseeing” - understanding that answers your question.

God is outside of time. God is not in time to “foresee”

God “sees” all of creation -at once. All moments of time (as we live them) are present to God. It is not about “foreseeing”.
 
Bookcat said:
It is NOT about God “foreseeing” - understanding that answers your question.

God is outside of time. God is not in time to “foresee”

God “sees” all of creation -at once. All moments of time (as we live them) are present to God. It is not about “foreseeing”.
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Does what is present to God changes if we exchange a twine? It doesn’t make any difference in what is present to God with the difference that twines have different destinies.
 
Bahman said:
Does what is present to God changes if we exchange a twine? It doesn’t make any difference in what is present to God with the difference that twines have different destinies.
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If I choose to post a response - God sees that post just as he sees the fall of Rome. My choice seen by God coming forth in its freshness - just as the choice of the murder of Caesar. He sees the final choice of one twin and the final choice of the other. If one exchanged them he would see yes the personal choice of each (each person would make their choices in life). All coming forth fresh as they are made in those moments in time. All points of time are present to God.

Not as some “play written in advance” and then acted out in time -but coming forth fresh in the moment of free choice of each person as person.

Not “destinies” but personal choices.
 
Bookcat said:
If I choose to post a response - God sees that post just as he sees the fall of Rome. My choice seen by God coming forth in its freshness - just as the choice of the murder of Caesar. He sees the final choice of one twin and the final choice of the other. If one exchanged them he would see yes the personal choice of each (each person would make their choices in life). All coming forth fresh as they are made in those moments in time. All points of time are present to God.

Not as some “play written in advance” and then acted out in time -but coming forth fresh in the moment of free choice of each person as person.

Not “destinies” but personal choices.
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`

Not according to Catholic theology on predestination. The Christian God is not reliant on the actions of any creature for knowledge. He knows all infallibly from the instant of creation. Sounds kind of like a play to me.
We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events
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newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Pretty conclusive, don’t you think?
 
Bookcat said:
If I choose to post a response - God sees that post just as he sees the fall of Rome. My choice seen by God coming forth in its freshness - just as the choice of the murder of Caesar. He sees the final choice of one twin and the final choice of the other. If one exchanged them he would see yes the personal choice of each (each person would make their choices in life). All coming forth fresh as they are made in those moments in time. All points of time are present to God.

Not as some “play written in advance” and then acted out in time -but coming forth fresh in the moment of free choice of each person as person.

Not “destinies” but personal choices.
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Everything is good and dandy except your conclusion! Nothing changes in God’s foresee if we exchange X with Y, the twine after the point of conception, but this time each person ends up in different place! Hence there is no personal choice if we accept God’s foresee.
 
Bahman said:
Everything is good and dandy except your conclusion! Nothing changes in God’s foresee if we exchange X with Y, the twine after the point of conception, but this time each person ends up in different place! Hence there is no personal choice if we accept God’s foresee.
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CCC said:
599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: "This Jesus [was]
delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."393 This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.394
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396
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See bold.
 
oldcelt said:
Again, preordained and free will cannot co-exist logically. That is why they use the answer of the mystery of God’s plan…because they cannot answer the contradiction.
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Preordained and free will can co-exist logically - and quite comfortably - if it is preordained that we have free will. 😉
 
Bahman said:
Everything is good and dandy except your conclusion! Nothing changes in God’s foresee if we exchange X with Y, the twine after the point of conception, but this time each person ends up in different place! Hence there is no personal choice if we accept God’s foresee.
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God doesn’t need foresight because He transcends time and space. He exists in the eternal present and knows everything but He is quite capable of creating us with the power to choose what to believe and how to behave. To disagree is to impose arbitrary limits on the Creator’s omnipotence - which is not only absurd but presumptuous. It amounts to setting oneself up as an infallible authority on the mysterious nature of the Supreme Being. :eek:
 
oldcelt said:
`
He knows all infallibly from the instant of creation. Sounds kind of like a play to me.
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Nope not a play written in advance…

The instant of creation, and my typing now and my eating toast with peanut butter just a moment ago are all present to God outside of time - as is all else “of time”.

Including my free choice to eat that peanut butter and toast.

Again the confusion is one is still speaking as if God is not outside of time.
 
tonyrey said:
God doesn’t need foresight because He transcends time and space. He exists in the eternal present and knows everything but He is quite capable of creating us with the power to choose what to believe and how to behave. To disagree is to impose arbitrary limits on the Creator’s omnipotence - which is not only absurd but presumptuous. It amounts to setting oneself up as an infallible authority on the mysterious nature of the Supreme Being. :eek:
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Are you making an argument? Did you find anything wrong in the twine paradox?
 
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