God's foreknowledge and fatalism

[davidv]

Because there is zero evidence for anything beyond this reality. If someone has some…beyond revelation…which is no proof at all, I’d love to see it.

John

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your claim is rejected as illogical

 

[oldcelt]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your claim is rejected as illogical

Attempting to prove a negative is futile…as you should well know.

 

[davidv]

Attempting to prove a negative is futile…as you should well know.

So? Then why make such a negative claim?

 

[oldcelt]

So? Then why make such a negative claim?

I made no claim…if you would take the time to read. I proposed an hypothesis.

The soul is an interesting concept. However, it is more than likely early philosophers trying to explain consciousness and the difference in human beings.

Get it now?

John

 

[tonyrey]

Hope you enjoy your imaginary God.

Hope you enjoy your imaginary prison! Or do you prefer to wallow in negative misery? :ehh:

 

[Bahman]

Hope you enjoy your imaginary prison! Or do you prefer to wallow in negative misery?

Prison is very real my friend, that is why we need to be productive and create concepts. Otherwise we go nut.

 

[tonyrey]

Prison is very real my friend, that is why we need to be productive and create concepts. Otherwise we go nut.

In a mental prison we couldn’t choose to be productive or create concepts. We would be just helpless cogs in a machine…

 

[Bahman]

In a mental prison we couldn’t choose to be productive or create concepts.

That is the very thing we are doing right now. Look at sky. Do you think whether we have a chance to scape this?

We would be just helpless cogs in a machine…

We are not. But the machine, our mental state is very real.

 

[rstrats]

davidv,

re: “Yes. It is called our soul.”

So if before He creates an individual, i.e., “…before we are born…He foresees every choice we will ever make”, does that include Him knowing if He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire?

 

[davidv]

davidv,

re: “Yes. It is called our soul.”

So if before He creates an individual, i.e., “…before we are born…He foresees every choice we will ever make”, does that include Him knowing if He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire?

What do you mean by “He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire”? What role does the human play in this eventuality? Could that same person have acted differently and gone to heaven?

What do you think omniscience means?

 

[oldcelt]

What do you mean by “He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire”? What role does the human play in this eventuality? Could that same person have acted differently and gone to heaven?

What do you think omniscience means?

Total knowledge…and as Macbeth would say, “Aye, there’s the rub.”

 

[rstrats]

davidv,

re: “What do you mean by ‘He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire’?”

Just that. Revelation 20:15 says: “And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire”.

re: “What role does the human play in this eventuality?”

The role would be to not meet the supreme being’s requirements in order to avoid being cast into the lake of fire.

re: “Could that same person have acted differently and gone to heaven?”

I don’t know.

re: “What do you think omniscience means?”

I’ll have to go with the dictionary definition; “… having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” However, I do not have a conviction as to whether or not that includes knowing the details of the future with regard to an individual. But Linusthe2nd wrote: ‘He foresees every choice we will ever make’ and it was to that comment that I responded.

 

[davidv]

davidv,

re: “What do you mean by ‘He will eventually be casting the individual into the lake of fire’?”

Just that. Revelation 20:15 says: “And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire”.

re: “What role does the human play in this eventuality?”

The role would be to not meet the supreme being’s requirements in order to avoid being cast into the lake of fire.

re: “Could that same person have acted differently and gone to heaven?”

I don’t know.

re: “What do you think omniscience means?”

I’ll have to go with the dictionary definition; “… having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” However, I do not have a conviction as to whether or not that includes knowing the details of the future with regard to an individual. But Linusthe2nd wrote: ‘He foresees every choice we will ever make’ and it was to that comment that I responded.

Thank you for your reply.

It seems that you are using a very literalistic interpretation of Revelation. Is this true? If so, how is this justified?

For your “I don’t know” response, I have an answer. The answer is a definitive yes. Jesus said He desires all to be saved (in heaven) and God provides all that is necessary for this to occur.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Why does one need to do A or B? Can one do neither? What if I’m still thinking about it when I “die” whatever that means?

 

[rstrats]

davidv,

re: “It seems that you are using a very literalistic interpretation of Revelation. Is this true?”

It is.

re: “If so, how is this justified?”

How is the interpretation of any scripture justified? For many its based on various motivations, experience, suppositions, educational levels, etc. For me, I can not think of any reason not to take the verse literally. Now it is another matter as to what the lake of fire represents. Is it literal burning fire or a metaphor for some other condition? I don’t know. However, it appears that it is a “place” because Revelation 20:10 says that is where the beast and the false prophet will be.

 

[Bahman]

Why does one need to do A or B?

This is for sake of simplicity.

Can one do neither?

Then you have three options to take into account.

What if I’m still thinking about it when I “die” whatever that means?

I don’t understand.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t understand.

Death in a strict sense of consciousness is not true, perhaps change is true, but if everything is not what it appears to be, which is true, then what does death mean in the physical reality which we admit is only illusion anyway?

 

[Bahman]

Death in a strict sense of consciousness is not true, perhaps change is true, but if everything is not what it appears to be, which is true, then what does death mean in the physical reality which we admit is only illusion anyway?

Death is simply absence of experience since consciousness is simple and cannot be decomposed. I do personally believe in another realms that we have to get through.

 

[davidv]

davidv,

re: “It seems that you are using a very literalistic interpretation of Revelation. Is this true?”

It is.

re: “If so, how is this justified?”

How is the interpretation of any scripture justified? For many its based on various motivations, experience, suppositions, educational levels, etc. For me, I can not think of any reason not to take the verse literally. Now it is another matter as to what the lake of fire represents. Is it literal burning fire or a metaphor for some other condition? I don’t know. However, it appears that it is a “place” because Revelation 20:10 says that is where the beast and the false prophet will be.

This is the Church’s argument against a “wooden literal” interpretation of Scripture.

CCC:

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

Also:

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Death is simply absence of experience

Must be the absence of life then.