God's Jealousy

[Della]

Within a marriage love is not demanded. It is freely given and promised by the act of marriage. It is the commitment freely entered into that matters. If the suggestion is that God has the right to demand love from those who have committed themselves to Him, then that’s fair enough and analogous to marriage vows, perhaps. But if the suggestion is that God has the right to demand and insist upon love from all persons, then I would have to disagree.

When couples make vows, then they are obligated to fulfill those vows. The word demand is not a dirty word, ya know. It merely means that God has the right to expect that we love him, in justice, if not with our feelings. Feelings are fine, but our willingness to love God is more pleasing to him because in order to do that we have to deny our own desires–our earthly desires to do it. It is the language of those who love utterly not of those who merely have nice feelings towards God.

 

[zz912]

Within a marriage love is not demanded. It is freely given and promised by the act of marriage. It is the commitment freely entered into that matters. If the suggestion is that God has the right to demand love from those who have committed themselves to Him, then that’s fair enough and analogous to marriage vows, perhaps. But if the suggestion is that God has the right to demand and insist upon love from all persons, then I would have to disagree.

I don’t know about you, but I demand that my wife not give marital love to anyone else. She also demands the same of me. We happily abide by these demands.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I know the scriptures say that God is a jealous God. Jealousy to me is an imperfection because you are not seeing things clearly. And God is perfect so, how can he be jealous? I’m a little confused about this. What is being said?

Bill

I believe that God’s jealousy is nothing like human jealousy.

Human jealousy is petty.

God’s jealousy is that God will NEVER give up on anyone.

 

[billcu1]

I believe that God’s jealousy is nothing like human jealousy.

Human jealousy is petty.

God’s jealousy is that God will NEVER give up on anyone.

Very good. Human Jealousy is all about ME ME ME. It is said that Jesus in “Anger” made a whip and ran the money changers out of the temple. Here’s the kicker there. It wasn’t an “anger” like we ordinary people have

 

[Tom_Baum]

In justice God has the right to demand our love–just as a spouse has the right to demand love in that relationship. When we remember that love is part of God’s nature, not an emotion, it makes more sense. For instance, marital love is not a mere emotion, either, no matter how many romance stories say otherwise. We can’t always feel romantic, but we can always give our love through good times and bad. How can we claim allegiance to love himself without acknowledging that he has a right to our love? Free will does not release us from our obligation to love him who first loved us.

You wrote, “When we remember that love is part of God’s nature,”

God Is a Being of Love, Love is not “part” of God’s nature.

LOVE is God’s Essence and everything flows from that.

God’s Love can caress or burn and when God’s Love burns, it purifies, just as fire purifies gold in a material sense, God’s Love purifies us in a spiritual sense.

Ever heard of God described as a Consuming Fire of Love?

Just as all of the dross of gold is burn away with fire, all of the “dross” of us is burned away with the Consuming Fire of Love, God.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You can’t attribute human emotions to God and have God remain God. You might begin with St. Anselm’s Monologion and Proslogion.

It is written that God said, “I AM a jealous God”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You misunderstand who God is, then. He who made us is owed our total allegiance, whether we see the “big picture” or not. He has made it abundantly clear that he, and only he, can fulfill our needs. We need no other “lover” but our Beloved who loves us with such a fierce love that he died on the cross. Such love is beyond our human understanding, yes, but it does demand we give him our all in return.

You wrote, “Such love is beyond our human understanding,”

Could be that you are right in the words that you wrote that I quoted above and all of the “qualifiers” that we add concerning salvation are added since God’s Plan of Salvation being catholic is “beyond our human understanding”.

 

[Della]

You wrote, “When we remember that love is part of God’s nature,”

God Is a Being of Love, Love is not “part” of God’s nature.

LOVE is God’s Essence and everything flows from that.

God’s Love can caress or burn and when God’s Love burns, it purifies, just as fire purifies gold in a material sense, God’s Love purifies us in a spiritual sense.

Ever heard of God described as a Consuming Fire of Love?

Just as all of the dross of gold is burn away with fire, all of the “dross” of us is burned away with the Consuming Fire of Love, God.

What I was referring to is that God is also truth, justice, mercy, etc. Love is the overarching nature of God and all is done in and through his love, but it’s not his only attribute.
Tom Baum:

You wrote, “Such love is beyond our human understanding,”

Could be that you are right in the words that you wrote that I quoted above and all of the “qualifiers” that we add concerning salvation are added since God’s Plan of Salvation being catholic is “beyond our human understanding”.

If I understand you rightly, yes. All his works are beyond our understanding. The reason he saves us is, of course, his love, but his love is still beyond our understanding. This does not limit our response, though, nor does it dismss our obligation to love him in return–you aren’t saying that is does, but we need to stay on topic…

 

[Tom_Baum]

What I was referring to is that God is also truth, justice, mercy, etc. Love is the overarching nature of God and all is done in and through his love, but it’s not his only attribute.

What I am saying, is that Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

The other things that you speak of are attributes of God and flow from God’s “Essence”, God’s Very Being.

If I understand you rightly, yes. All his works are beyond our understanding. The reason he saves us is, of course, his love, but his love is still beyond our understanding. This does not limit our response, though, nor does it dismss our obligation to love him in return–you aren’t saying that is does, but we need to stay on topic…

I guess what I was and am trying to say is that some of the prayers that we “mouth”, we should let sink into our hearts and minds.

One of which is the “O my Jesus” prayer:

O my Jesus
forgive us our sins
save us from the fires of hell,
lead all souls to heaven,
especially those who have most need of Your Mercy.

So simple, straight-forward and to the point, very catholic.

 

[Della]

What I am saying, is that Love is NOT an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

The other things that you speak of are attributes of God and flow from God’s “Essence”, God’s Very Being.

Yes, AND love an attribute. It’s both/and nor either/or. An attribute is the essence of someone’s being. So, there’s no need to parse hairs.

I guess what I was and am trying to say is that some of the prayers that we “mouth”, we should let sink into our hearts and minds.

One of which is the “O my Jesus” prayer:

O my Jesus
forgive us our sins
save us from the fires of hell,
lead all souls to heaven,
especially those who have most need of Your Mercy.

So simple, straight-forward and to the point, very catholic.

Yes, but what does this have to do with God declaring he is jealous for us? He is jealous for us whether or not we respond. Of course, we should, but our response or lack of it hardly matters since God still desires us no matter what. It’s part of his essence.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes, AND love an attribute. It’s both/and nor either/or. An attribute is the essence of someone’s being. So, there’s no need to parse hairs.

The “essence” of our beings are atoms and such, are atoms and such our attributes?

I have said many times that I was taught in second grade that God Is Love and that I had no idea that it was literal until I met God the Father, I still have no idea how it can be literal, I just know that the statement, God Is Love, is, indeed, literal.

Yes, but what does this have to do with God declaring he is jealous for us? He is jealous for us whether or not we respond. Of course, we should, but our response or lack of it hardly matters since God still desires us no matter what. It’s part of his essence.

I don’t quite know what you are saying, are you saying, something to the effect, that God’s jealousy stops at nothing in God’s quest that each and every one of us is, ultimately, with God in God’s Kingdom?

 

[Della]

The “essence” of our beings are atoms and such, are atoms and such our attributes?

So, you are a materialist? You know the essence of our being isn’t atoms–that’s merely the essence of our bodies. We are more than bodies, though–we are also soul, mind, and spirit.

I have said many times that I was taught in second grade that God Is Love and that I had no idea that it was literal until I met God the Father, I still have no idea how it can be literal, I just know that the statement, God Is Love, is, indeed, literal.

Who has disputed that? Not me. I really have no idea why you think you need to go on telling me what I’ve already stated.

I don’t quite know what you are saying, are you saying, something to the effect, that God’s jealousy stops at nothing in God’s quest that each and every one of us is, ultimately, with God in God’s Kingdom?

God’s jealousy indeed stops at nothing because it is fueled by his love. It is we who put obstacles in the way of his great love for us.

 

[Tom_Baum]

So, you are a materialist? You know the essence of our being isn’t atoms–that’s merely the essence of our bodies. We are more than bodies, though–we are also soul, mind, and spirit.

I believe that we are “more” than our bodies but without our bodies we can not live on Earth, at least I do not believe that we can.

Actually, I believe that it was/is God Who created His Creation in a physical and spiritual way with the earth being physical and us having both physical and spiritual aspects but that our earthly life is very contingent on our physicality, even Jesus’s earthly life was contingent on His Physicality.

If that makes me a “materialist” than so be it.

I believe that it was when Mary said YES that Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, before that, He Who became known as Jesus was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Jesus’s work on the cross, in my opinion, was mostly spiritual but there was physical work to be done and sometimes we get so wrapped up in the physicality of the cross that we miss the spirituality of some of the things that were reportedly said by Jesus and miss plenty.

I guess that it would have been more accurate to say that the “essence” of our ability to live on earth is “atoms and such”.

Who has disputed that? Not me. I really have no idea why you think you need to go on telling me what I’ve already stated.

You have by saying that Love is a mere attribute of God when it is God’s Very Being.

I believe, firmly believe, that there is a huge difference between the two statements:

1. God is a loving God.
2. God is a Being of Love.

I may not know exactly how to put into words the difference between the two, but in my opinion, the two statements are not even close to meaning the same thing.

God’s jealousy indeed stops at nothing because it is fueled by his love. It is we who put obstacles in the way of his great love for us.

You seem to be saying that we can “put obstacles in the way of his (God’s) great love for us” but even so “God’s jealousy indeed stops at nothing because it is fueled by his love”, do you really believe that?

Many people say that they do but when push comes to shove, so to speak, they really do not believe it.

 

[billcu1]

I believe that we are “more” than our bodies but without our bodies we can not live on Earth, at least I do not believe that we can.

Actually, I believe that it was/is God Who created His Creation in a physical and spiritual way with the earth being physical and us having both physical and spiritual aspects but that our earthly life is very contingent on our physicality, even Jesus’s earthly life was contingent on His Physicality.

If that makes me a “materialist” than so be it.

I believe that it was when Mary said YES that Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, before that, He Who became known as Jesus was the Second Person of the Trinity.

Jesus’s work on the cross, in my opinion, was mostly spiritual but there was physical work to be done and sometimes we get so wrapped up in the physicality of the cross that we miss the spirituality of some of the things that were reportedly said by Jesus and miss plenty.

I guess that it would have been more accurate to say that the “essence” of our ability to live on earth is “atoms and such”.

You have by saying that Love is a mere attribute of God when it is God’s Very Being.

I believe, firmly believe, that there is a huge difference between the two statements:

1. God is a loving God.
2. God is a Being of Love.

I may not know exactly how to put into words the difference between the two, but in my opinion, the two statements are not even close to meaning the same thing.

You seem to be saying that we can “put obstacles in the way of his (God’s) great love for us” but even so “God’s jealousy indeed stops at nothing because it is fueled by his love”, do you really believe that?

Many people say that they do but when push comes to shove, so to speak, they really do not believe it.

I wouldn’t consider God’s “Jealousy” if that is a correct statement is anything like the human counter part. To that God has love as you are saying IMO anyway; sounds like a humanization of God. So that we can speak of “him” in human constructs.

Bill

 

[billcu1]

You wrote, “When we remember that love is part of God’s nature,”

God Is a Being of Love, Love is not “part” of God’s nature.

LOVE is God’s Essence and everything flows from that.

God’s Love can caress or burn and when God’s Love burns, it purifies, just as fire purifies gold in a material sense, God’s Love purifies us in a spiritual sense.

Ever heard of God described as a Consuming Fire of Love?

Just as all of the dross of gold is burn away with fire, all of the “dross” of us is burned away with the Consuming Fire of Love, God.

What about truth? Is truth also God’s essence? God is truth.
I would have to look this all up but I don’t want to misquote the Summa

Bill

 

[paziego]

The jealousy refers to the henotheism in early Judaism. As a national religion, it acknowledges the existence of other national deities. God is jealous of the worship Israel directs at other god’s.

In the early days Yahweh Himself was a polytheist. It wasn’t until contact with the Persian empire that anything approaching monotheism and universalism appears in Judaism.

 

[billcu1]

The jealousy refers to the henotheism in early Judaism. As a national religion, it acknowledges the existence of other national deities. God is jealous of the worship Israel directs at other god’s.

In the early days Yahweh Himself was a polytheist. It wasn’t until contact with the Persian empire that anything approaching monotheism and universalism appears in Judaism.

I know. That’s what I thought. El Abraham followed gets confused with YHVH.

Bill

 

[billcu1]

The jealousy refers to the henotheism in early Judaism. As a national religion, it acknowledges the existence of other national deities. God is jealous of the worship Israel directs at other god’s.

In the early days Yahweh Himself was a polytheist. It wasn’t until contact with the Persian empire that anything approaching monotheism and universalism appears in Judaism.

And thus we have the second temple period.
The return from babylon.

 

[Tom_Baum]

What about truth? Is truth also God’s essence? God is truth.
I would have to look this all up but I don’t want to misquote the Summa

Bill

There are a lot of “attributes” of God but God’s Essence is Love.

All of God’s attributes flow from God’s Essence.

 

[billcu1]

There are a lot of “attributes” of God but God’s Essence is Love.

All of God’s attributes flow from God’s Essence.

Ok. How is essence different from nature? Oh and personage? What exactly is personage as defined by St. Thomas and Aristotle?

Bill