God's Plan

[Faith101]

You see the mistake you make is to limit the power of God.

lol…

you believe that God came down on this earth…got hungry, scared, needed to use the bathroom, didnt know answers to certain questions and was even tortured and killed…and then you turn around and say that WE are limiting God’s power. SubhanAllah, that doesnt cease to amaze me.

God is so beyond us that death has no meaning to God, therefore to apply your concept of what is appropriate for God is actually denying power to the Lord.

It is not I nor you that determines what is and what is not appropriate for God to do. We’ve discussed this countless times on these threads.

God tells us that it DOES NOT befit HIs majesty to be human, let alone DIE. It doesnt limit His power. ITs like an atheist asking you if God can lie…you say no, they say you are limiting God’s power.

As Christians we believe that God can incarnate and die bodily, and still remain God, because He is not limited in anyway.

And Allah has given you the choice to believe in whatever you would like to believe. Some people depict God with an elephants head, you depict him with a human head, etc…you have the free will to do/believe as you like.

Do you think that dying takes away anything from the glory of God?

That actually hurts when i hear something like this. God dying. wow…may Allah keep us all on the straight path and never let our arrogance extinguish the light of truth.

Surely not, however it does make us realise how much God loves us, He incarnates only for us, it doesnt matter to Him, but we do, since we are His children

you believe that, because of the mistake of two humans, God closes the gates of paradise in your face. and then requires a human sacrifice (which is really Him/His son) to allow you back into paradise.

the more i understand Christian beliefs, the more my faith is deepenend in Islam.

May Allah grant all those on this forum who are actually searching for truth…to find it easily…and allow peace to enter their hearts. ameen.

 

[janG]

No Christian believes God was killed. Jesus was fully human AND fully God. The human part of him was killed AND rose from the dead. God was not killed at any point.

God is PURE LOVE. God is all-good, God is truth, God is justice. God is honesty. God is peace. God does not mislead. He did not create any evil…not evil jinns or death, destruction, disease, poverty, suffering, lies, hatred. God only created good.

And God loves his human creatures so much, that He himself came to defeat evil and open heaven. Sacrifice for the benefit of another IS Love. I’m sorry you don’t understand that.

 

[LuigiColetta]

janG:

And God loves his human creatures so much, that He himself came to defeat evil and open heaven. Sacrifice for the benefit of another IS Love. I’m sorry you don’t understand that.

I feel this way also…

 

[Faith101]

No Christian believes God was killed. Jesus was fully human AND fully God. The human part of him was killed AND rose from the dead. God was not killed at any point

perfection with a weakness is no longer perfection. Allah is perfect, with no weaknesses. What you are saying is that God is self-sufficient but also at the same time he needed someone to feed him. This makes no sense to me.

God is PURE LOVE. God is all-good, God is truth, God is justice. God is honesty. God is peace. God does not mislead. He did not create any evil…not evil jinns or death, destruction, disease, poverty, suffering, lies, hatred. God only created good.

Jinns are just another form of creation. There are Christian jinn and Jewish jinn and atheist jinn and muslim jinn, etc. They are another creation, like humans, who have free will.

Do you believe that all the evil in this world happens AGAINST God’s will?

And God loves his human creatures so much, that He himself came to defeat evil and open heaven. Sacrifice for the benefit of another IS Love. I’m sorry you don’t understand that

Look at it from this way: I go and falsely accuse YOU of murder because your grandfather killed someone. Then, I say, “you know what, i love you so much that i am going to give my life up instead of you” THis is not mercy! This is injustice, i’m sorry that you dont understand that.

 

[janG]

Yes, God is perfect and all-good. Nothing evil or imperfect can be in heaven with God. He created the world good and He created the angels and man all-good with free will. Satan and his followers were angels who used their free will to turn against God. Satan wanted to be God. God then cast them out of heaven. Hell is where they will spend eternity, separated from the perfection and goodness and love of God. Adam and Eve also used their free will to go against God. That is why they were driven out of the garden of Eden and why all of mankind is born with a tendency to choose evil over good.

You and I know very well that no human is perfect. We have all sinned. Since nothing imperfect can be in heaven with God, how does anyone get to heaven??? God loves us and wants us to be with Him. That’s why He came himself to give us a way to get to heaven. He came as Jesus, fully human and yet still fully God. Jesus WAS a perfect human being. He was not born with the stain of Adam and Eve’s sin like you and I are, and never once in His entire earthly life did He ever do anything against God’s will. Unlike Adam and Eve, He resisted the temptations Satan put before Him. He took on the sins of the whole world when He was crucified. His death paid the penalty due to God for all the sins humans had ever and would ever commit. His resurrection is the final victory over evil and eternal death. The only way we can get to heaven is THROUGH Jesus’ perfect sacrifice and resurrection because His is the only perfect sacrifice that could pay the price due to God for our sins. Perfect justice requires that a penalty be paid for an evil action. Only Jesus’ perfect sacrifice is enough to fulfill perfect justice. That’s why this was such a huge act of love for us on God’s part. He knew only He Himself could make a big enough sacrifice to pay for all the evil done by man.

You get too hung up on the idea that the human body goes to the bathroom and such. God created us that way. Because God created us good, those normal bodily functions are good. At the end of the world, we will all get our bodies back, in a glorified form so that there’s no more pain, etc., but bodies are not a bad thing! If they were, God wouldn’t have given them to us in the first place. Yes, God is above taking on a human body, and yet He did it because He loves us so much. That’s why we love Him so much in return, because we realize just how big a gift this was from Him. It’s certainly not something we deserved, but He did it for us anyway.

God didn’t create us to be His slaves…He wouldn’t have given us free will if that’s what He wanted. He wants us to realize how much He loves us and to choose to love Him in return freely. He wants our worship of Him to be because we realize just how incredibly good and loving and generous and merciful He is and what a huge, huge thing He did for us. He wants our obedience to Him to be our choice because we love Him. He is our father and we are his children. That’s way better than slavery.

Does God ever will bad things on us? No, but He allows bad things to happen to us because He uses the bad things to bring about good, if we let Him. The good isn’t necessarily a physical good…often it is a spiritual good…making us love Him and rely on Him more, bringing us closer to Him. Also, if we have sinned, there are earthly consequences for that sin, as well as spiritual consequences. He allows those consequences to happen to us.

Your example on justice when someone else has committed murder is not the same thing at all. We’re talking about divine justice. Do you honestly think you are capable of doing enough sacrifice in this life and being perfect enough in this life to satisfy the justice DUE TO GOD for any sins you’ve committed? How do Muslim’s satisfy divine justice? Yes, God is extremely merciful, but you’re expecting Him to just ignore the fact that He also demands justice for sin.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

perfection with a weakness is no longer perfection. Allah is perfect, with no weaknesses. What you are saying is that God is self-sufficient but also at the same time he needed someone to feed him. This makes no sense to me.

Perfection is beyond your definition of strength and weakness, that is why your understanding of “how Allah should be” actually limits the nature of God.

God can appear as a weak baby, and still be God.

However the devil is intent on appearing perfect and strong, because inherently he isnt!

Do you see where I am going?

Jinns are just another form of creation. There are Christian jinn and Jewish jinn and atheist jinn and muslim jinn, etc. They are another creation, like humans, who have free will.

Do you believe that all the evil in this world happens AGAINST God’s will?

Pagan nonsense!

Nothing happens against God’s will!

Look at it from this way: I go and falsely accuse YOU of murder because your grandfather killed someone. Then, I say, “you know what, i love you so much that i am going to give my life up instead of you” THis is not mercy! This is injustice, i’m sorry that you dont understand that.

No one is accusing anyone of anything, however we are saying that our natures were not originaly tainted by sin!

 

[Faith101]

Yes, God is perfect and all-good. Nothing evil or imperfect can be in heaven with God. He created the world good and He created the angels and man all-good with free will. Satan and his followers were angels who used their free will to turn against God. Satan wanted to be God.

Satan wanted to be God? Is this mainstream christian thought? Satan knows that God is God and that He deserves all worship. His issue is that he was too proud and arrogant to bow down to Adam when God told him to.

You and I know very well that no human is perfect. We have all sinned. Since nothing imperfect can be in heaven with God, how does anyone get to heaven???

by God’s mercy.

God loves us and wants us to be with Him. That’s why He came himself to give us a way to get to heaven. He came as Jesus, fully human and yet still fully God.

He took on the sins of the whole world when He was crucified. His death paid the penalty due to God for all the sins humans had ever and would ever commit

.

again…none of this is needed. There is no original sin…and God is the most-merciful, most-just. What you describe above is injustice and not an act of love.

You get too hung up on the idea that the human body goes to the bathroom and such. God created us that way. Because God created us good, those normal bodily functions are good. At the end of the world, we will all get our bodies back, in a glorified form so that there’s no more pain, etc., but bodies are not a bad thing!

I never said bodies are a bad thing…God created us in the best of form. All that i am donig is relaying a message from God where He says that it does not befitt His majesty to come down to earth and go to the bathroom. That is all.

If they were, God wouldn’t have given them to us in the first place. Yes, God is above taking on a human body, and yet He did it because He loves us so much. That’s why we love Him so much in return, because we realize just how big a gift this was from Him. It’s certainly not something we deserved, but He did it for us anyway.

Again, God is all merciful and all-just. All just includes not blaming you for the sin of your ancestors. All merciful means that he is capable of forgiving your sins and accepting you into heaven, when in reality nothing you can do is worthy of it.

God didn’t create us to be His slaves…He wouldn’t have given us free will if that’s what He wanted. He wants us to realize how much He loves us and to choose to love Him in return freely. He wants our worship of Him to be because we realize just how incredibly good and loving and generous and merciful He is and what a huge, huge thing He did for us. He wants our obedience to Him to be our choice because we love Him. He is our father and we are his children. That’s way better than slavery.

When you love someone sooo much, what happens? You do anything and everything they tell you…in reality becoming their slave. When this happens between God and us humans…its a beautiful relationship. There is nothing wrong with being the slave of God. Many Arab Christians carry the name abdelmesseh…which translates as the “slave of the Messiah”

I do agree with you that we have free will, and we can choose to obey God or not. We can choose to accept his messengers, or not. And we will be held responsible for those decisions.

Your example on justice when someone else has committed murder is not the same thing at all. We’re talking about divine justice. Do you honestly think you are capable of doing enough sacrifice in this life and being perfect enough in this life to satisfy the justice DUE TO GOD for any sins you’ve committed? How do Muslim’s satisfy divine justice? Yes, God is extremely merciful, but you’re expecting Him to just ignore the fact that He also demands justice for sin

Justice is not having someone else pay the price for your sins. There will be people in hell that will only be spending a “short” time there, to “pay” for the sins that they have committed on earth for which they did not repent and for which God has chosen not to completly ignore.

The difference is…YOU sin, YOU pay for it. Not YOU sin, and GOD pays for it by giving up his son/own life.

 

[Faith101]

…continued

Alhamdulilah, i am completly comfortable with the Muslim concepts presented here. I do understand where you are coming from, and i understand that this is what you have been taught from childhood and its hard to see past it. But what i am trying to present to you is a completly different way of looking at things. It is not something that i came up with, but something that was revealed by God himself to set the story straight.

You can accept, or you can reject…that is between you and your Creator. My advice to you is exactly the advice i give myself every day…if you want to know the truth, then ask GOD for it. Pray directly to Him with an open heart, inshAllah He will answer your call.

May God lead us all to the straight path. ameen

“Those who patiently persevere seeking the countenance of their Lord, establish regular prayers, spend both secretly and openly out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, and repel evil with good - they are the ones who will find their fulfillment in the hereafter.”

The Holy Quran, 13:22

 

[Faith101]

Perfection is beyond your definition of strength and weakness, that is why your understanding of “how Allah should be” actually limits the nature of God.

This is not MY brain cells trying to work up an argument. It is exactly what God has told us, it does NOT befit His majesty to come down on this earth in human form and need food/rest.

God can appear as a weak baby, and still be God.

However the devil is intent on appearing perfect and strong, because inherently he isnt!

Do you see where I am going?

I see where you are trying to go…but you’ll be going there alone. This totally boggles my mind. But, listen, if you really in your heart believe that its ok for God to appear weaker than a baby, than i pray that GOd guides you before your time comes.

Pagan nonsense!

Nothing happens against God’s will!

good, we agree.

No one is accusing anyone of anything, however we are saying that our natures were not originaly tainted by sin!

?

 

[janG]

Of course Satan wanted to be like God. Isn’t that essentially what all sin is? We’re telling God we know better than He does. That was part of Satan’s temptation to Eve…eat the fruit and be like gods. I don’t know what sin Satan committed to be cast out of heaven. I just know Satan was created good and chose to disobey God and got thrown out of heaven forever for doing it. I know Satan is evil and wants nothing more than to keep people from the truth about God. I know he is a liar, thief, and murderer. He doesn’t want us to make it to heaven and will try every trick possible to keep us away from it.

Our understanding of hell is that it is permanent. If we die with sins we have not repented of, hell is the eternal punishment. God’s not going to force Himself on anyone. He invites, we have to accept the invitation. It has to be during our lifetime. After death is too late. Catholics do believe in purgatory which is a temporary cleansing before we get to heaven since nothing imperfect can be there. Of course we are all personally responsible for the sins we have committed. Christ’s sacrifice does not give us a pass on that. But, Christ’s sacrifice satisfies the divine justice so that it is possible to get to heaven. It’s through His sacrifice that sins can be forgiven.

I invite you to think a little more about original goodness and original justice. We both agree that God is perfect and all-good. If He is telling us the truth about that, then He cannot deny His own nature. But, if He created man with things like pride, greed, envy, lust, selfishness, etc., that would be the same as Him denying His own nature. All-Good is not really all-good if it creates bad. Perfection cannot create imperfection unless it’s not really perfection. So is God perfect or lying about who He is? When Adam and Eve sinned, those negative traits became part of them and we inherit those negative traits. As far as the justice end of it, when they sinned, it was like they had thrown a huge rock at the doorway of heaven and broke the door. They had no way to fix it themselves. Sure God could forgive them, but the doorway was still broken. How does it get fixed? In essence, you already believe God fixed the doorway to heaven Himself. So do we. But we believe God chose to show us that He did it through salvation history and through Christ’s love, death and resurrection. You think it’s unfair that God would “punish” everyone because of the sin of Adam and Eve, but it’s not unfair if God offers an even better relationship through Christ. I find it way more troubling to think a perfect God created imperfection. God is God…He knew from before He created Adam and Eve that they would sin and lose the original goodness and original justice. He planned from the beginning that this is how things would be done. That was the purpose of the covenant with Abraham. If you look at the big picture, you can see God’s faithfullness to covenant right up to the present day.

If things were as you claim and Islam was the intended religion, God would have just set it up at the beginning and that would have been that. There would have been no need for a covenant with Abraham. I don’t think you comprehend just how tortured a logic has to be followed in order to get to Islam after Abraham, Moses and Jesus. It would make a lot more sense if it went straight from Abraham, through Ishmael to Mohammed. Trying to bring in Moses and Jesus and then all the claims of scripture perversion, loss of Jesus’ book, the very people who were with Jesus lied, loss of the true message, and even denial of secular history that Jesus was crucified, etc., is well, incredibly hard to swallow for someone who looks at the big picture and trusts God. I just can’t believe that God would let His true religion get lost along the way like that. That goes totally against covenant!!

Continued

 

[janG]

Think about this too. If Jesus was God and is necessary to get to heaven, what lie would Satan most want people to believe?? The scriptures you are so willing to dismiss as lies do say “even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” It makes me kind of wonder why that specific warning is there.

I also wanted to add that if you think I am Catholic because of my upbringing, you are mistaken. If we ask God to know HIS truth with a truly open mind and open heart and are willing to hear His answer no matter what the answer is, He reveals it to us. That’s why I’m Catholic.

 

[Faith101]

Catholics do believe in purgatory which is a temporary cleansing before we get to heaven since nothing imperfect can be there

does this mean that all catholics will go to hell first? being that everyone will die without reaching perfection?

I invite you to think a little more about original goodness and original justice. We both agree that God is perfect and all-good. If He is telling us the truth about that, then He cannot deny His own nature. But, if He created man with things like pride, greed, envy, lust, selfishness, etc., that would be the same as Him denying His own nature. All-Good is not really all-good if it creates bad

God created the devil. The devil is bad. That doesnt mean that God is bad. I really dont understand what you are saying. God gave us free will so we have the opition of being bad or good. Angels, on the other hand, dont have that option…they can only be good.

Perfection cannot create imperfection unless it’s not really perfection

How about if perfection didnt intend on creating something perfect and flawless? Perfection is capable is it not?

So is God perfect or lying about who He is? When Adam and Eve sinned, those negative traits became part of them and we inherit those negative traits

They obviously had those traits in them before they sinned or else they wouldnt have sinned.

I find it way more troubling to think a perfect God created imperfection

Can you please elaborate on this statement. No human, not even Adam and Eve were perfect (or else they wouldnt have sinned).

If things were as you claim and Islam was the intended religion, God would have just set it up at the beginning and that would have been that. There would have been no need for a covenant with Abraham. I don’t think you comprehend just how tortured a logic has to be followed in order to get to Islam after Abraham, Moses and Jesus. It would make a lot more sense if it went straight from Abraham, through Ishmael to Mohammed. Trying to bring in Moses and Jesus and then all the claims of scripture perversion, loss of Jesus’ book, the very people who were with Jesus lied, loss of the true message, and even denial of secular history that Jesus was crucified, etc., is well, incredibly hard to swallow for someone who looks at the big picture and trusts God. I just can’t believe that God would let His true religion get lost along the way like that. That goes totally against covenant!!

I understand where you are coming from. But Jesus peace be upon him was not sent for mankind, thats why he had told his disciples to only go to the children of israel. Thats why he refused to cure or make miracles for anyone outside of the children of Israel (except in special cases). His message was for the children of Israel.

Think about it like this. If God meant for us to udnerstand HIm in trinity…than wouldnt he have made that clear from the begining? Wouldnt the first comandment say “know that your lord is trinity.” Why is it that the foundation of a belief is something vague and not understandable. For every verse that you can show that Jesus is God, there is a verse that shows that he was ONLY a messenger…and we go back and forth, back and forth. The fact is, its not clear, and like the Quran says…all that you follow is conjecture, with no certainty.

Islam is in perfect union with the message of Abraham and Moses and Jesus peace be upon them all. Their messages were for the people they were sent to. Mohamed’s (pbuh) message was for all of mankind, therefore, God promised to preserve it. That’s all.

 

[Faith101]

Think about this too. If Jesus was God and is necessary to get to heaven, what lie would Satan most want people to believe?? The scriptures you are so willing to dismiss as lies do say “even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” It makes me kind of wonder why that specific warning is there.

If you actually read the Quran, i dont think it is logical at alll to say that it was inspired by the Devil.

I also wanted to add that if you think I am Catholic because of my upbringing, you are mistaken. If we ask God to know HIS truth with a truly open mind and open heart and are willing to hear His answer no matter what the answer is, He reveals it to us. That’s why I’m Catholic.

InshAllah, I do truly pray that God guides you and makes the truth clear for you to see and makes it easy for you to accept (and i pray this for myself as well).

 

[janG]

Purgatory is not hell. Purgatory is cleansing to finish our perfection that we begin here on earth…kind of like completion of our internal jihad so that all the bad (greed, jealousy, envy, etc.) is out of us. We have to be perfect to be in heaven with God. Do all Catholics go to purgatory? It depends how well they’ve done in their lives in submitting their will to God’s and whether they were able to receive the final sacraments. Some go straight to heaven…many probably need purgatory first.

Hell is damnation/suffering and separation from God for all eternity. If a Catholic ends up there, there’s no coming out.

The devil was an angel. He was created good with free-will. He chose to disobey. That’s when he was cast out of heaven and became known as the devil.

If a perfect God creates evil, then He is not perfect. Perfection cannot contradict itself by doing the opposite of itself. Love hates evil. How could God, who is pure love, create evil? Adam and Eve were created all-good and with free-will. They chose to disobey. Then they became imperfect. Please go back and re-read the portion of Genesis I posted earlier. You can clearly see the sin changed Adam and Eve. They were innocent before the sin but realized their nakedness and hid after the sin. Their knowledge had changed. We inherit that changed knowledge.

As far as the trinity, God did say at the very beginning “Let us create man in our image”. You guys always just dismiss it as the royal plural. Maybe it actually is the plural plural? I’m not a linguistics expert and I’m not about to argue that point, but maybe He did tell us at the very beginning. The trinity is God the Father (Mind/Creator), God the Son (Word/Redeemer), and God the Holy Spirit (Breath/Sanctifier). It’s all one God. God spoke and the world was created. God breathed into Adam to give him life. That’s how we are even able to know God at all…we were created in His image and likeness, but our perfect knowledge of Him was damanged by Adam and Eve’s sin. We inherit the changed knowledge rather than the perfect knowledge. Look at humans…We are mind, body and soul. 3 separate things and yet all one being. Same kind of thing with God.

You have to remember too that God is outside of time. Because we are trapped (for now) within time, His revelation about Himself covers a span of many thousand years. But when you’re outside of time, it all happened in an instant. Hard, hard, hard to understand with our limited minds. We can’t comprehend eternity either. We can’t comprehend how God can be without a beginning and an end and yet we believe that about Him. What can it be like to just be?? When you look at that whole mystery, believing God is trinity is not much of a stretch.

You also need to understand that Christians believe that Christ was the final revelation of God about Himself and that Christianity IS intended for ALL of mankind. 600 years later Mohammed shows up and tells us all we knew before is lies. What happened to our covenant? The covenant all the apostles died for? The same covenant the Catholic Church holds to today. See why I wonder who his angel of light was? Especially when the Islam says the Holy Spirit was Gabriel and the trinity is God, Jesus and Mary. Just isn’t so my friend. That’s never, ever what Christians have believed.

 

[Faith101]

Dearest JanG

i feel we are going back and forth on the same topics, and we are not really getting anywhere. The view that you have of what happened in the Garden and how we get to heaven is not the same view that I have. I have tried to understand your point of view, and alhamdulilah, I think i got it. I do now understand where you are coming from. But with all due respect, this is not the message that God has revealed to us.

I will try to address your post anyway. I’ll start with this verse, and pray that you are not among those people mentioned in it.

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe (Quran 2:6)

Purgatory is not hell. Purgatory is cleansing to finish our perfection that we begin here on earth…kind of like completion of our internal jihad so that all the bad (greed, jealousy, envy, etc.) is out of us. We have to be perfect to be in heaven with God. Do all Catholics go to purgatory? It depends how well they’ve done in their lives in submitting their will to God’s and whether they were able to receive the final sacraments. Some go straight to heaven…many probably need purgatory first

Purgatory is punishment right? This is similiar, i guess, to an Islamic concept…where some muslims will be punished before they reach paradise.

The devil was an angel. He was created good with free-will. He chose to disobey. That’s when he was cast out of heaven and became known as the devil.

ok. I agree that he chose to disobey, although i disagree that he was an angel.

If a perfect God creates evil, then He is not perfect. Perfection cannot contradict itself by doing the opposite of itself.

I still dont undersand this part. God created me. I am not perfect. Do you then conclude that God is not perfect?

Perfection belongs to God and to Him alone.

As far as the trinity, God did say at the very beginning “Let us create man in our image”. You guys always just dismiss it as the royal plural. Maybe it actually is the plural plural? I’m not a linguistics expert and I’m not about to argue that point, but maybe He did tell us at the very beginning.

JanG, this is what i am talking about and it is what the Quran addresses

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth. (Chapter #53, Verse #28)

The concept is not clear, in order to believe it…one would have to twist the words and interpret them in a way that would suit their own purpose. God speaks clearly especially in the foundation of belief, like these verese where He describes Himself

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
And there is none like unto Him. (Quran 112)

 

[Faith101]

…continued

The trinity is God the Father (Mind/Creator), God the Son (Word/Redeemer), and God the Holy Spirit (Breath/Sanctifier). It’s all one God. … Look at humans…We are mind, body and soul. 3 separate things and yet all one being. Same kind of thing with God.

This can be disproved using the Bible itself, and you know it. Some of the verses will not fit along with this concept, and they have been presented here, only to be given responses such as “Jesus emptied his knowledge” and silly things like that. May God guide us all.

You have to remember too that God is outside of time. Because we are trapped (for now) within time, His revelation about Himself covers a span of many thousand years. But when you’re outside of time, it all happened in an instant. Hard, hard, hard to understand with our limited minds. We can’t comprehend eternity either. We can’t comprehend how God can be without a beginning and an end and yet we believe that about Him. What can it be like to just be?? When you look at that whole mystery, believing God is trinity is not much of a stretch.

Just because we cant understand the trinity, doesnt make it true. We only know about God what God chooses to reveal about Himself. Anything else about Him we do not get into, b/c our brain wont comprehend.

He has revealed to us, through ALL the messengers, that He is one with no partners and nothing that is like Him. Trinity was not something that God uses to describe Himself, its something men came up with later on. May God never let us go astray.

You also need to understand that Christians believe that Christ was the final revelation of God about Himself and that Christianity IS intended for ALL of mankind. 600 years later Mohammed shows up and tells us all we knew before is lies.

THe message that reached the Christians after Jesus (pbuh) wasnt the message he preached. Christians overpraised Jesus (pbuh)to the point that they began to worship him. Mohamed (pbuh) warned us of this

Narrated 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying, “Do not exaggerate in praising me as the christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.” (Book #55, Hadith #654)

Especially when the Islam says the Holy Spirit was Gabriel and the trinity is God, Jesus and Mary. Just isn’t so my friend. That’s never, ever what Christians have believed

The Quran says that some Christians worship Mary…and using the Islamic concept of worship, they do. Just because you are not aware of it, doesnt make it any less true.

They say: “Become Jews or christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.” (Chapter #2, Verse #135)

 

[janG]

God doesn’t want us to use our brains to think about His mysteries? I find that surprising as we are always encouraged to use the gifts God has given us.

We are not born perfect because we inherit the stain of the original sin of our first parents because God offers us a better relationship through Jesus and His church.

Jesus’ mission, in addition to the redemption of mankind, was to teach us how to live. We can’t pick and choose which of His teachings we will follow.

Jesus, after His death and resurrection, while still on earth, clearly told the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. The trinity…plainly stated…ONE God, three persons. He told His apostles to go and make disciples in all nations. They were to spread the Good News to everyone because God’s plan of salvation is for everyone. These same apostles did that and each gave their life to spread the Good News God had revealed.

Yesterday was St. Bartholomew’s feast day. He was one of Jesus’ first 12 apostles. He took the Good News to what is now Iraq. He was ordered to stop saying Jesus had died and risen from the dead or they would skin him alive. He continued to tell the truth about Jesus and they strung him up and literally inch by inch skinned him while he was still alive. He witnessed Jesus first hand and refused to lie about what he had seen and what Jesus taught even though it cost Him his life. The same kind of thing happened with all of Jesus’ apostles and, throughout the persecutions, the early Christians were more willing to die than to deny the truth about Jesus. They would make the sign of the cross as the lions ripped them to shreads. They believed Jesus’ teaching to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us because of Him. They trusted in God and His covenant with us.

Mohammed on the other hand, when he was told he was incorrect, took up his sword and murdered the Jews who told him he was wrong about what God had revealed to them. Sometimes actions do speak louder than words. Just because Mohammed said it was Gabriel who recited the Koran to him, doesn’t make it so. He probably very sincerely believed it was, but that doesn’t make him right. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons all believe just as sincerely in their revelations too. The Jews sincerely believe Jesus wasn’t the Christ. Even the Protestant Christians sincerely believe they are right. It doesn’t mean they are. Only in the Catholic Church can you see the full revelation of God about Himself from creation to the present day. It is the only place you find the fullness of the New Covenant God made through Jesus.

God only invites…He will never force the truth on anyone. This has been an interesting conversation. I have learned more about Islam. I will pray for you and truly hope we will meet in heaven one day.

 

[meedo]

Muhammed didnt kill any jews . Two of the three tribes that were in madina were deported because they breached the pact of peace by attacking a muslim women once and the other by an assassination attempt on him .

The third betrayed him during war with idol pagan worshippers and sided with them and began to threaten teh women and children from the back of the muslims .

They were punished by Death for TREASON.

I guess thats fair.

Peace

 

[Faith101]

God doesn’t want us to use our brains to think about His mysteries? I find that surprising as we are always encouraged to use the gifts God has given us.

JanG, i know my posts are long and from this comment above, i can see that you dont read the whole post. Please let me know, i can paraphrase inshAllah

Alll over the Quran, Allah tells us to THINK. He tells us to UNDERSTAND. When talking about the disbelievers, He says “DO THEY NOT THINK” or “DO THEY NOT UNDERSTAND” In Islam, we are commanded to use our brains. However, in things that were not revealed to us, we dont go around and question “well how exactly does God look like” etc. ITs none of our business.

What i am trying to tell you is that the ideas i have presented here ARE NOT MY IDEAS. They are God’s. It is what God has revealed to mankind…whether you choose to reject the final revelation and final messenger or not is irrelevant…and it doesnt make the message any less true.

Your statment however is somewhat odd, its a comment that would be more properly used against Christians then Muslims… THe foundation of your belief is that God is trinty, yet not even the greatest of your scholars can adequatly explain that. You CANT understand it with your brain, you just have to belief in the mystery.

Yesterday was St. Bartholomew’s feast day. He was one of Jesus’ first 12 apostles. He took the Good News to what is now Iraq. He was ordered to stop saying Jesus had died and risen from the dead or they would skin him alive. He continued to tell the truth about Jesus and they strung him up and literally inch by inch skinned him while he was still alive. He witnessed Jesus first hand and refused to lie about what he had seen and what Jesus taught even though it cost Him his life. The same kind of thing happened with all of Jesus’ apostles and, throughout the persecutions, the early Christians were more willing to die than to deny the truth about Jesus. They would make the sign of the cross as the lions ripped them to shreads. They believed Jesus’ teaching to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us because of Him. They trusted in God and His covenant with us.

I can relay to you thousands of stories of Muslims who have been through the same thing (even UNTIL this present day)…killed for believing in One God and refusing to make partners to Him.

We can go back and forth, and it wont prove or disprove anything.
There were many people in history killed for different reasons, some for false beliefs, others because they stood on truth. This can not be used to JUSTIFY a religion or to show its truthfullness, any more than people seeing miracles can.

God only invites…He will never force the truth on anyone. This has been an interesting conversation. I have learned more about Islam. I will pray for you and truly hope we will meet in heaven one day

I too have learned a lot. God truly does answer the call of the one who prays sincerely from his heart. May God guide us, keep us guided, and let our final resting place be in His presence. Ameen

 

[janG]

Are you listening to yourself at all? I am to believe the word of one man who says he had a revelation from an angel, but I am not to believe the people who lived and walked with Jesus. Jesus clearly said He was God and clearly stated God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit…ONE God, 3 persons. You don’t want to believe that so your only defense is to tell me not to believe the people who heard Him say those things. You say there are things we can’t understand about God, but trinity cannot be true because we can’t understand it fully. My friend, I would laugh if your logic and defenses weren’t so incredibly sad. Once again, I will say God can only reveal the truth to you if you are willing to hear the truth. If you already have yourself convinced of one belief, He’s not going to fight with you about it. I’m not either.

And to Meedo: whether the slaughter of the Jews was an act of revenge for their behavior in war or not, it still means they clearly rejected Mohammed’s message and died for it. If they had accepted him as a prophet, they would have been on his side in the war. Get it? It also does not negate the fact that the first Christians spread Christianity by GOD’S POWER and not by the power of the sword. Quite a contrast if you will look at it honestly.