God's Violence in the Old Testament vs Who Jesus Is

[FossilResin]

I’ve been disturbed about this for some time. If we say that God is always the same and never changes, and that he never does evil, and that he never contradicts himself, HOW do we even begin to make sense of this one God who, in the Old Testament, commands the execution by stoning of a man gathering firewood on the sabbath (not to mention every other violent act that God explicitly commands in the OT, like impaling the Israelites who worshipped foreign deities) with this supposedly very same God in the person of Jesus who is so lovably and consistently nonviolent, who explicitly famously says “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” HOW can this logically or justifiably or sanely be seen as the same God who never changes, who never does evil, who always has the same moral code and who never contradicts himself?!

 

[Elias]

Because to think God in the OT is different from God in the NT is Marcionism, and Marcionism is heresy.

Besides, Jesus Himself even said one that sees Him has seen the Father:
John 12:45

And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me

John 14:9

Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

 

[FossilResin]

Because to think God in the OT is different from God in the NT is Marcionism, and Marcionism is heresy.

Besides, Jesus Himself even said one that sees Him has seen the Father:
John 12:45

And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me

That is NOT answering the question AT ALL.

 

[Yennora]

I’m not sure about why the Sabbath rule was there.

However, for the foreign deities issue; Worshipping foreign deities was not a trivial matter as it included severe child abuse. I believe it wasn’t only “offering children to moloch”. It was far beyond that, including torture. (use of Shamanism)

I once was angry with the fact that God ordered wars on nations worshipping idols and commanding the Israelities to kill them but when I saw the real dark reality of paganism and its ties to ritual child abuse I saw that it was needed. Trust me, the child torture practices these people use to worship their idols are beyond horror.

For the Sabbath rule? I have no answer yet, but given I have received an answer for the first issue (wars), then I have faith that there was a powerful reason behind it that we don’t yet know.

NOTE: Child/human sacrifice in itself is a major crime for which they deserved the death penalty. I’m just shedding the light on the fact that child sacrifice was not the only crime done against children.

 

[Elias]

It does. Jesus is the God of the OT as in the NT. There is no difference. So to say that God in the OT is “too violent” and contradicts God in the NT is failing to understand God and why He does what He does.

Our God is a God of: Love, Mercy, and Justice.
God loves us and sacrifices Himself for us
God has mercy on us by giving us a way out of our sins and the bondage to death
God is justice because the evil and wicked don’t deserve to be with the good and innocent after death and in this life.

 

[JerryZ]

Perhaps one should come to realize that the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament is not really GOD that has changed but that man had been changed enough that GOD (Jesus) could enter in a deeper contact with the human race.
It says in the Bible that “In the fullness of time, the son of GOD was incarnate of a virgin woman and became man.”
GOD never does nor wills evil on anyone or anything.
We on the other hand and the Angels can choose to do evil.
One should realize that evil deeds are perpetrated even to these days.
Torture, murder, fornication, extermination, usury, slavery. They are all happening NOW. And what about the numbers compare in the Old testament when Sodom and Gomorrah were wiped out from the face of the Earth, How many people were actually killed? 1000? 10000? Very much doubt it.
In contrast 6,000,000 Jews were killed by the nazis, Pol Pot murdered 1.7 million of its own people (21% of the Cambodian Population), Stalin murdered at least 20,000,000 Russians, Mao decided that no one should outdo him so he killed 45,000,000 in 4 years.
They all rejected GOD by the way…

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

One can not downplay the quantity of people killed in the old testament by referencing the 20th century violence, unless one adjusts for world population in the same way that economists adjust for inflation.

Example:
Killing 2 people in a room of 50 vs killing 20 people in a room of 5,000. Wow, 100 times as many people where killed.

 

[HumbleIOughtToBe]

To repeat the words we sing at mass every Sunday to the OP is not a productive use of time.

The very asking of this question is a proposal that a mantra won’t cut it.

 

[Salibi]

So to say that God in the OT is “too violent” and contradicts God in the NT is failing to understand God and why He does what He doe

The OP is raising a common question regarding God’s behaviour in the OT and understandably requires an answer more thorough than the one you provided. @Yennora’s answer is probably more in keeping with what the OP is asking for.

 

[Justin_Mary]

HOW can this logically or justifiably or sanely be seen as the same God who never changes, who never does evil, who always has the same moral code and who never contradicts himself?!

Jesus explained this when he said, “When you pray, pray like this: ‘Our Father…’”

Remember when you were a kid there were times when your father treated you harshly, then as you grew older he could lovingly explain why he had to be so harsh. & you could actually decide whether he treats you harshly or lovingly. Be hardheaded & stubborn & defiant. You’re more likely to get the stick. Be compliant, obedient, & mindful of your father’s desires & you’re more likely to get the carrot.

This is way oversimplified, but should get the idea across.

 

[po18guy]

Different covenants. Read up on them. Also, we are God’s creations. God is the Artist and may do whatever He wishes with His creations. There are times when God uses His creations to exact His justice. Morality, as we know it, applies to man - God is infinitely above that.

 

[Tolkien1096]

This is how, the God of the OT is the god of the NT. Proper understanding of the OT and the god of love and judgment can be found in a few books that helped me.

Is god a moral monster by Paul Copan
Did God really command genocide by Paul Copan
God behaving badly by David Lamb

 

[FossilResin]

FossilResin:

HOW can this logically or justifiably or sanely be seen as the same God who never changes, who never does evil, who always has the same moral code and who never contradicts himself?!

Jesus explained this when he said, “When you pray, pray like this: ‘Our Father…’”

Remember when you were a kid there were times when your father treated you harshly, then as you grew older he could lovingly explain why he had to be so harsh. & you could actually decide whether he treats you harshly or lovingly. Be hardheaded & stubborn & defiant. You’re more likely to get the stick. Be compliant, obedient, & mindful of your father’s desires & you’re more likely to get the carrot.

This is way oversimplified, but should get the idea across.

Your unquestioned assumption that I grew up with a father around, much less one who behaves morally, is insufferably insulting.

 

[FossilResin]

a few books that helped me.

Is god a moral monster by Paul Copan
Did God really command genocide by Paul Copan
God behaving badly by David Lamb

Thank you, I appreciate these recommendations. I am listening to Paul Copan now.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Your unquestioned assumption that I grew up with a father around, much less one who behaves morally, is insufferably insulting.

No insult intended friend. I was using the universal “you.” Not the literal.

 

[Chistian-ity]

Well said!

 

[TK421]

I’ve been disturbed about this for some time. If we say that God is always the same and never changes, and that he never does evil, and that he never contradicts himself, HOW do we even begin to make sense of this one God who, in the Old Testament, commands the execution by stoning of a man gathering firewood on the sabbath (not to mention every other violent act that God explicitly commands in the OT, like impaling the Israelites who worshipped foreign deities) with this supposedly very same God in the person of Jesus who is so lovably and consistently nonviolent, who explicitly famously says “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” HOW can this logically or justifiably or sanely be seen as the same God who never changes, who never does evil, who always has the same moral code and who never contradicts himself?!

First and foremost, we’re not going to have a complete understanding of suffering and evil (at least not until the hereafter) of why God does what he does or permits what he permits. I realize this is unsatisfying for a question of such magnitude that has the potential to cut to the bone, but human limitations of knowledge is just a fact of life no matter who you are or what you believe.

That being said, I find the retired Pope Benedict helpful on this subject:

http://www.reasonablecatholic.com/the-dark-passages-of-the-bible-5-things-to-remember/

 

[FossilResin]

FossilResin:

Your unquestioned assumption that I grew up with a father around, much less one who behaves morally, is insufferably insulting.

No insult intended friend. I was using the universal “you.” Not the literal.

My bad. No worries. Thank you.

 

[FossilResin]

Hard to get mad someone for assuming the default.

Fair enough that I overreacted. As for your part, less impenetrable hardness about such matters of broken families would do you no harm. Regards.

 

[FossilResin]

Different covenants. Read up on them. Also, we are God’s creations. God is the Artist and may do whatever He wishes with His creations. There are times when God uses His creations to exact His justice. Morality, as we know it, applies to man - God is infinitely above that.

I never thought I would agree but I admit I am coming to see this perspective. I read elsewhere that if the Israelites had done such violence without an explicit command from God in those exceptional situations then they certainly would have been committing a grave sin. But God is above the laws he gives to us. I think this is why we are called to be Christlike but not Godlike. Christ is God, yes, but he is the perfect incarnation of God as a human person who has both a human and divine nature, and in such, he was radically nonviolent and extraordinarily compassionate. This is how we are called to be (or try to be, of course): as if God were living in our human bodies in humility and holiness. God when he is busy driving the Universe is not ours to question.