God's Will vs. free will

[donchiccio]

Mother Teresa wrote that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ but it’s not the only way to heaven. Since God implanted right and wrong in the conscience of every human being, anyone who, ignorant of the Gospel of Christ, tries to live their life as best they know how, governed by the dictates of a right and true conscience, can be saved. All other Christian faiths are in imperfect union with the Catholic Church and the church constantly prays for all Christian faiths to be reunited to the Church founded by Jesus.

And don’t forget, Jesus said to Simon Peter, … Upon this rock, referring to Simon Peter, I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. yes, the devil has caused much confusion within the Church, but in the end, the Catholic Church will prevail.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

origen314:

Tertullian, the brilliant Second Century Church Father said: “credo quia absurdum”, i.e., “I believe because it is absurd.” Uh, hello, are you saying you know better than Tertullian, the inventor of the Trinity?!

No doctrine of the church was ever invented, and you are wrong about this quote. A true servant of God would never have said anything so stupid.

origen314:

So you have to make a choice: are you going to believe the Bible or “real world” facts? How do you know these facts aren’t just the Devil testing your faith? I say Jay and you are on a slippery slope that leads only to perdition!

I am going to believe both, because reason and faith don’t contradict eachother. Since true reason and true faith are by definition both true, and truth can’t contradict itself, we know that true reason must not contradict true faith.
I know these facts aren’t just the devil testing my faith because I know them through reason. It is impossible to acquire rational grounds for doubting reason, so I’m going to believe it, and this doesn’t require me to deny my faith.

By the way, if you don’t think reason is a reliable way of discovering truth, why did you bother saying:

origen314:

Jay (if that is your real name), there are so many things wrong with your argument.

You say this as if it matters that reason has spotted a hole in his argument. But if reason should be dismissed for tricks of the devil (see second sentence of second quotation), then why bother ‘rationally debating’ him? Why didn’t you just tell him “Your reason is so inherently flawed that you shouldn’t even bother searching for truth, you should just accept whatever I tell you”. (why couldn’t the devil just send one of his minions onto these forums and have them lie to people, hoping to turn their blind faith against them?)

 

[jay_wilson]

Mother Teresa wrote that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ but it’s not the only way to heaven.

Are you claiming that Mother Teresa can override our Lord Jesus’ most quoted statement in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

No ambiguity here…unless you consider the Quran’s holy scripture: “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet”

So it looks like there is only ONE road to paradise.

Choose carefully.

 

[origen314]

No doctrine of the church was ever invented, and you are wrong about this quote. A true servant of God would never have said anything so stupid.

SentinelofTruth, we’re not so different, you and I. I know the “facts” from the sciences but realize they are at odds with the Bible’s eternal truths and the revelations of Jesus the Christ, so I choose the eternal truths. You choose to remain blissfully ignorant of the facts (like early Church history) and apply poor logic like the “no true Scotsman” fallacy you have invoked above so you can pretend the facts support your faith. We both end up in the right place.

Unless you adopt my approach, it is essential that you steer clear of corrupting academic influences! Do NOT read about the Two Source Hypothesis, the Documentary Hypothesis, Marcionism, the Apocrypha, etc. This kind of knowledge serves only to corrupt faith.

It is easy to have faith when the real world clearly supports our faith’s assertions. However, God is always testing us so he placed us in a real world where nearly every new scholarly discovery contradicts our faith. Stay strong, my friend!

 

[SentinelofTruth]

jay wilson:

Quote:
Originally Posted by donchiccio View Post
Mother Teresa wrote that the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church established by Jesus Christ but it’s not the only way to heaven.
Are you claiming that Mother Teresa can override our Lord Jesus’ most quoted statement in John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

No ambiguity here…unless you consider the Quran’s holy scripture: “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet”

So it looks like there is only ONE road to paradise.

Choose carefully.

I don’t think anyone here is denying that there is only one way to heaven. Unless you think someone is, I don’t see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[jay_wilson]

I don’t think anyone here is denying that there is only one way to heaven. Unless you think someone is, I don’t see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

I think there are 1.2 billion Muslims who strongly believe paradise is only attainable through Allah. As to the relevancy to the topic, God’s will, a significant percentage of the world believes in something other than the Christian God which is a big problem for the side that’s worshiping the wrong god.

With the stakes being so high, you would think the one true God would make it unambiguously clear to present day people who’s in charge. After all, He’s God, He can do anything.

Before you say all faiths are equally valid paths, which some people believe, the both holy books are very clear that’s not the case. Is this just another part of the Bible we ignore, or are billions of innocent people going to spend an eternity in hell simply because they’re worshiping the wrong god?

Is it the moral judgment of a loving God…willing people to eternal torture for being atheists about Christianity, just as you are an atheist about Islam?

And if you think that Islam, or any other past or present religion, is a false path to paradise, consider your reasoning…and then try to look inward.

 

[origen314]

With the stakes being so high, you would think the one true God would make it unambiguously clear to present day people who’s in charge. After all, He’s God, He can do anything.

While God can do anything, he does NOT want to make it clear or it would be too easy! Remember Tertullian’s guidance: “I believe because it is absurd.”

Let’s take an example. The nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke are hopelessly contradictory with each other and with the historical record. Indeed, there are no contemporary accounts of the life of Jesus, and the first non-Christian account, Josephus’ Testimonium Flavianum, written about 60 years after the death of our Lord, shows signs of being a much later interpolation. All the apologetical spin-doctoring in the world cannot render any of this plausible in the least.

So what is one to do? You must listen to the Holy Spirit rather than the fallen real world with its deceptions and illusions! God is perfect and has created a perfect world, so all of these real world facts are a smoke screen. Just as He tested Abraham’s faith by commanding him to sacrifice his son, so God tests our faith by creating a real world that seems to render the Scriptures nonsensical. How much more clear can He make it that He doesn’t want to make Himself obvious? Can you overcome your facts and reason to listen to the Holy Spirit? It’s really difficult but the rewards are divine!

 

[SentinelofTruth]

origen314:

Remember Tertullian’s guidance: “I believe because it is absurd.”

This “guidance” is exactly the sort of thinking that is instilled by satan.

origen314:

jay wilson:

With the stakes being so high, you would think the one true God would make it unambiguously clear to present day people who’s in charge. After all, He’s God, He can do anything.

While God can do anything, he does NOT want to make it clear or it would be too easy!

Knowing about God isn’t the most important thing. In fact, you aren’t penalized at all for being an atheist if you really think atheism is true and are honestly doing what you thinking is right. It is much better to be a sincere atheist than an insincere Christian.

origen314:

Let’s take an example. The nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke are hopelessly contradictory with each other and with the historical record. Indeed, there are no contemporary accounts of the life of Jesus, and the first non-Christian account, Josephus’ Testimonium Flavianum, written about 60 years after the death of our Lord, shows signs of being a much later interpolation. All the apologetical spin-doctoring in the world cannot render any of this plausible in the least.

The two accounts are not actually contradictory. There are always ways to reconcile them. For instance, I once read an objection online saying that two gospels (I can’t remember which ones) both start with Jesus’s genealogy, but list different people. I read the passages for myself and noticed that one traced it through Mary, and the other through Joseph. All cases of apparent contradictions in the bible are like this.

origen314:

So what is one to do? You must listen to the Holy Spirit rather than the fallen real world with its deceptions and illusions! God is perfect and has created a perfect world, so all of these real world facts are a smoke screen.

If all real world facts are an illusion, how do you know that the bible even exists? If you think this because you’ve read the bible, couldn’t your perception of reading the bible just have been some ‘deception of the devil’? The same objection applies if other people have told you about the bible. Thus, if you assert that faith is the only way of knowing anything, then you lose your basis for faith. Especially if you assert “God creates a ‘real world’ that seemed to render the scriptures nonsensical.” because that would seem to imply that our experiences are not of an illusionary world, no part of which is real (including the bible. It’s a physical object, so we need perception to know about it).

origen314:

Can you overcome your facts and reason to listen to the Holy Spirit? It’s really difficult but the rewards are divine!

To ‘overcome reason’ is to render faith useless and meaningless. I know from experience that the Holy Spirit (sometimes) speaks through reason. By the way, to overcome reason is the easiest thing in the world, it’s staying loyal to reason (and therefore faith as well) that’s ‘hard’.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

While God can do anything, he does NOT want to make it clear or it would be too easy! Remember Tertullian’s guidance: “I believe because it is absurd.”

I think you are trolling but …en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum

Credo quia absurdum is a Latin phrase of uncertain origin. It means “I believe because it is absurd” It is derived from a poorly remembered or misquoted passage in Tertullian’s De Carne Christi defending the tenets of orthodox Christianity against docetism, which reads in the original Latin:

Crucifixus est Dei Filius, non pudet, quia pudendum est;
et mortuus est Dei Filius, prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est;
et sepultus resurrexit, certum est, quia impossibile.
— (De Carne Christi V, 4)

“The Son of God was crucified: there is no shame, because it is shameful.
And the Son of God died: it is wholly credible, because it is unsuitable.
And, buried, He rose again: it is certain, because impossible.”

The phrase does not express the Catholic Faith,[1] as explained by Pope Benedict XVI: “The Catholic Tradition, from the outset, rejected the so-called “fideism”, which is the desire to believe against reason. Credo quia absurdum (I believe because it is absurd) is not a formula that interprets the Catholic faith.”[2]

 

[jay_wilson]

This “guidance” is exactly the sort of thinking that is instilled by satan.

Knowing about God isn’t the most important thing. In fact, you aren’t penalized at all for being an atheist if you really think atheism is true and are honestly doing what you thinking is right. It is much better to be a sincere atheist than an insincere Christian.

Are you not paying attention? The Bible repeatedly and clearly defines who’s going to hell as well as Jesus Himself…so don’t make me get the quotes…and if you cherry-pick the Bible, how do you know which truths to pick and which ones to ignore? Maybe God didn’t really didn’t know what he was talking about.?

If it’s OK to be a non-Christian then why did the Church gleefully burn heretics, witches, and non-believers at the stake for centuries, establish the Holy Inquisition, and go on endless Crusades? But you say now it’s ok?

Finally, if you’re talking about pope Francis’ recent statement that atheists don’t go to hell…well the Vatican walked that back so fast it would make an exorcist’s head spin… which had to be embarrassing for an infallible being:

huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/27/vatican-confirms-atheists-still-going-to-hell_n_3341368.html?just_reloaded=1

 

[Richca]

Just a couple of thoughts which can be gathered from Holy Scripture and St Thomas Aquinas.

Nothing occurs in the world that is outside or beyond God’s knowledge and will.

God has immediate providence over everything that occurs in the world whether it be great or small, good or evil.

God does not will moral evil but He permits it because He created us with free will.

“Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.” (Matthew 10:29).

“For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” (Phillipians 2:13).

“How could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?” (Wisdom 11:25)

“But you have disposed all things by measure and number and weight.” (Wisdom 11:20).

“Whatever the LORD desires he does in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the depths.” (Psalm 135:6).

“LORD, you have probed me, you know me: you know when I sit and stand;
you understand my thoughts from afar. You sift through my travels and my rest;
with all my ways you are familiar. Even before a word is on my tongue, LORD, you know it all.
Behind and before you encircle me and rest your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, far too lofty for me to reach.” (Psalm 139: 1-6)

“The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.” (Proverbs 15:3).

“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!” (Romans 11:33).

 

[jay_wilson]

Just a couple of thoughts which can be gathered from Holy Scripture and St Thomas Aquinas.
.

The convenient thing about Holy Scripture is that there is something for everyone on just about every position on any subject. Keeping slaves? Sure. Killing Children? You bet. Stoning suspected non-virgins on their father’s doorstep? Of course!

It must be God’s will if it’s in the Good Book.

Since you mentioned him, let’s take one of the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas who advocated that heretics should be tortured and killed. Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. You may interpret the Bible differently-though isn’t it amazing that you have discerned the true teachings of Christianity, while the most influential thinkers in the history of your faith failed?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Many people suffer, and their suffering seems pointless and a waste. But as someone said earlier, God draws good out of our suffering if we let him. The key is to trust in God. Without trust, we truly are lost and depressed. The Book of Job shows us how to suffer and suffer nobly. It also shows us how God draws good out of evil. But God doesn’t do that without our trusting in his power and his will.

When I was going in for open heart surgery, I was depressed. But after reading the Book of Job, I was glad to put myself in the Lord’s hands. If I died, I believed it was his will. If I lived, I believed it was his will. Either way, my acceptance and trust in his goodness was the greatest comfort I could have as they wheeled me into surgery.

 

[origen314]

For instance, I once read an objection online saying that two gospels (I can’t remember which ones) both start with Jesus’s genealogy, but list different people. I read the passages for myself and noticed that one traced it through Mary, and the other through Joseph. All cases of apparent contradictions in the bible are like this.

Both Gospels trace Jesus’ lineage through Joseph, not Mary. You’re just referencing lame, hackneyed apologetics. Embracing these discredited, mendacious “theories” under the pretense of pursuing facts and reason is laughable. These Young Earth Creationists also embrace facts and reason to show the Earth is 6000 years old - what a hoot!

The real world contradicts the word of God. The real world “proves” the Bible is the product of ancient authors who embodied their own ignorance in the scriptures. The Bible also contradicts itself constantly: the first two chapters of Genesis don’t even agree on the order of creation … and it goes downhill from there.

It is much better to be a sincere atheist than an insincere Christian.

You should obey the words of our Lord rather than making stuff up:

Matthew 5:27-32. 27 "You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31 "It was also said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I think we can add: “If your rational mind causes you to sin, lobotomize yourself.” How can it be good to be tossed into the fiery pit? Jesus never asked us to seek facts - he asked us to believe in him. We must make a choice: do we embrace facts and reason, or do we embrace the words of Jesus, the Bible and its absurdities? The only way out is to embrace the Bible’s absurdities and listen to the Holy Spirit rather than facts and reason.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Both Gospels trace Jesus’ lineage through Joseph, not Mary.

There are four gospels, genius.

origen314:

These Young Earth Creationists also embrace facts and reason to show the Earth is 6000 years old - what a hoot!

It’s not a hoot. In facts, I agree with protestants on this.

origen314:

I think we can add: “If your rational mind causes you to sin, lobotomize yourself.”

An unrelated note: drugs can’t take your free will. More relevant: reason and free will are twin powers, you can’t have free will without reason. Besides, if you were to take your free will (not that that is metaphysically possible) then there would be no merit in choosing God, since you wouldn’t have had the ability to do otherwise.

origen314:

Jesus never asked us to seek facts- he asked us to believe in him.

Anything true can be called a fact, thus, to follow the truths given to us by Jesus is to follow ‘real facts’.

origen314:

The only way out is to embrace the Bible’s absurdities and listen to the Holy Spirit rather than facts and reason.

There are no absurdities in the bible. By away, what makes you think the bible is true (not that it isn’t)? Because you were raised Christian? If so, then your only grounds for believing in your so-called catholicism is that your parents told you to. I think other humans telling you things falls under what you seem to be calling ‘facts’.
Charlemagne II:

When I was going in for open heart surgery, I was depressed. But after reading the Book of Job, I was glad to put myself in the Lord’s hands. If I died, I believed it was his will. If I lived, I believed it was his will. Either way, my acceptance and trust in his goodness was the greatest comfort I could have as they wheeled me into surgery.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Richca:

Nothing occurs in the world that is outside or beyond God’s knowledge and will.

Richca:

God does not will moral evil…

To me, these seem contradictory.
jay wilson:

…and if you cherry-pick the Bible, how do you know which truths to pick and which ones to ignore?

I don’t cherry pick the bible.
jay wilson:

If it’s OK to be a non-Christian then why did the Church gleefully burn heretics, witches, and non-believers at the stake for centuries, establish the Holy Inquisition, and go on endless Crusades? But you say now it’s ok?

The church never gleefully burned anyone, and the crusades were established not only to retake the holy land from the possesion of evildoers but also to save the innocent people living there being oppressed.
jay wilson:

Finally, if you’re talking about pope Francis’ recent statement that atheists don’t go to hell…well the Vatican walked that back so fast it would make an exorcist’s head spin… which had to be embarrassing for an infallible being:

huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013…ust_reloaded=1

Any minion of satan can easily write an internet article containing a bunch of lies.

 

[origen314]

There are four gospels, genius.

Only two Gospels give Jesus’ genealogy, which is what we were discussing. Are you that ignorant of the scriptures? BTW, why did you try to sneak in that lie where you claimed to personally have discovered that one of the Gospels gives the lineage through Mary? Your reach exceeds your grasp.

It’s not a hoot. In facts, I agree with protestants on this.

This is QED that facts and reason are just a veneer for you. Your faith, based on ignorance, confirmation bias, and motivated reasoning, allows you to pretend that Evolution isn’t among mankind’s most firmly established knowledge. Asserting that the Earth is flat is more plausible than Young Earth Creationism. Kudos for achieving this level of self-deception!

So I think we’re just talking past each other. My approach is to be supremely knowledgeable and accept the absurdity of the world and the Bible. Your approach is to be ignorant and pretend discredited apologetics are valid. In the end, we both believe in the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, perfect God who created a perfect world where a large percentage of infants die. That’s what’s really important, right?

“Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.” – Mark Twain

 

[jay_wilson]

I don’t cherry pick the bible.

The church never gleefully burned anyone, and the crusades were established not only to retake the holy land from the possesion of evildoers but also to save the innocent people living there being oppressed.

Any minion of satan can easily write an internet article containing a bunch of lies.

Well, it’s interesting to read the variety of opinions over a single subject on this thread. I was hoping to have an engaging discussion from someone who at least has some modicum of intellectual honesty and a realist’s understanding of history. But when you start calling several of your fellow forum members minions of the devil, you lose all credibility and that discussion is over…

 

[SentinelofTruth]

jay wilson:

I was hoping to have an engaging discussion from someone who at least has some modicum of intellectual honesty and a realist’s understanding of history. But when you start calling several of your fellow forum members minions of the devil, you lose all credibility and that discussion is over…

I’m not being dishonest, this is what I believe. Besides being very insulting, it is against the forum rules to question the sincerity of an opponent’s beliefs, by the way. And I have not said that anyone here is a minion of the devil.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The element of chance has to be taken into account in any interpretation of physical reality. Unfortunate coincidences are inevitable in any immensely complex system.

There’s no such thing as a coincidence. God wills every action that takes place in our world.

Matt 10:30
‘Why, every hair on your head has been counted.’