God's Will vs. free will

[SentinelofTruth]

Robert Sock:

There’s no such thing as a coincidence. God wills every action that takes place in our world.

Doesn’t this entail that God wills evil?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

 

[origen314]

Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

The all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving perfect God would certainly only create the most perfect possible world … and He creates evil. Figure that one out, kids. Look up “cognitive dissonance” while you’re at it. See why any pretense of the application of facts and reason in these discussions is absurd?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

The all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving perfect God would certainly only create the most perfect possible world … and He creates evil. Figure that one out, kids. Look up “cognitive dissonance” while you’re at it. See why any pretense of the application of facts and reason in these discussions is absurd?

It’s a matter of perspective. Comedy = tragedy + time.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Roscoe Turner:

It’s a matter of perspective. Comedy = tragedy + time.

This is not true.
Roscoe Turner:

I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Here God is referring to that he knew as he created us that some of us would become evil. Creating evil was a necessary consequence of creating good, but it was worth it.

origen314:

BTW, why did you try to sneak in that lie where you claimed to personally have discovered that one of the Gospels gives the lineage through Mary? Your reach exceeds your grasp.

I’m not lying, and I don’t claim to have ‘personally discovered’ it, I just read the book and saw that the last name was Mary.

origen314:

This is QED that facts and reason are just a veneer for you. Your faith, based on ignorance, confirmation bias, and motivated reasoning, allows you to pretend that Evolution isn’t among mankind’s most firmly established knowledge. Asserting that the Earth is flat is more plausible than Young Earth Creationism. Kudos for achieving this level of self-deception!

You’re a fine one to be saying this, considering you deny the reliability of both science and reason.

origen314:

So I think we’re just talking past each other. My approach is to be supremely knowledgeable and accept the absurdity of the world and the Bible. Your approach is to be ignorant and pretend discredited apologetics are valid. In the end, we both believe in the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, perfect God who created a perfect world where a large percentage of infants die. That’s what’s really important, right?

Don’t try to make this disagreement seem unimportant, and don’t ridicule you’re own beliefs. Also, please stop denying reason. It makes not only you but all followers of your religion look like idiots. I don’t think Jesus likes you making a fool out of his church in front of people that aren’t catholic.
Lastly, origen, I’m going to stop refuting you since you deny the validity of reason.

 

[origen314]

It’s a matter of perspective. Comedy = tragedy + time.

Dead and suffering babies + time = comedy? This is the glib misapplication of a maxim referring to human emotional healing with time. He who commits an atrocity is not excused because He is transformed from a monster to a comedian by time.

This has nothing to do with human free will or sin. God creates pathogens (e.g. bacteria, viruses), birth defects, maladies associated with defective design of the human body (e.g., cancer, atherosclerosis, diabetes), etc. that kill and/or immiserate most people, including lots of the innocent unborn and infants. Scientists, a large percentage of whom are atheists, heal or greatly reduce suffering associated with the afflictions administered by God.

Try again … and let’s put some thought into it this time.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Dead and suffering babies + time = comedy? This is the glib misapplication of a maxim referring to human emotional healing with time. He who commits an atrocity is not excused because He is transformed from a monster to a comedian by time.

This has nothing to do with human free will or sin. God creates pathogens (e.g. bacteria, viruses), birth defects, maladies associated with defective design of the human body (e.g., cancer, atherosclerosis, diabetes), etc. that kill and/or immiserate most people, including lots of the innocent unborn and infants. Scientists, a large percentage of whom are atheists, heal or greatly reduce suffering associated with the afflictions administered by God.

Try again … and let’s put some thought into it this time.

It’s not about human emotion healing with time, e.x. “time heals all wounds” It speaking directly to what we find funny is tragedy through the lens of time.

quoteinvestigator.com/2013/06/25/comedy-plus/

What I was saying is what seems evil or tragic to us isn’t for God. He has a different perspective.

“If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.” - Woody Allen

 

[origen314]

It’s not about human emotion healing with time, e.x. “time heals all wounds” It speaking directly to what we find funny is tragedy through the lens of time.

quoteinvestigator.com/2013/06/25/comedy-plus/

What I was saying is what seems evil or tragic to us isn’t for God. He has a different perspective.

“If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.” - Woody Allen

This reminds me of claims that God is all-good because whatever he does is, by definition, good. It’s tautological and useless, effectively “God works in mysterious ways.” Ironically, it seems “sinful” (i.e., human) medical professionals are saving a lot of lives from God’s wrath (or malign neglect, at best).

This is not faith in the unknown; it is faith contradicted by what is known (in the sense of empirical real world data). We appear to have a perverse set of rules that are rigged in favor of the credulous and unobservant. It is a strange situation indeed.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

This reminds me of claims that God is all-good because whatever he does is, by definition, good. It’s tautological and useless, effectively “God works in mysterious ways.” Ironically, it seems “sinful” (i.e., human) medical professionals are saving a lot of lives from God’s wrath (or malign neglect, at best).

This is not faith in the unknown; it is faith contradicted by what is known (in the sense of empirical real world data). We appear to have a perverse set of rules that are rigged in favor of the credulous and unobservant. It is a strange situation indeed.

I’m not trying to excuse or dismiss.

The Lion and the gazelle have different tales to tell about the same chase.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

origen314:

Dead and suffering babies + time = comedy? This is the glib misapplication of a maxim referring to human emotional healing with time. He who commits an atrocity is not excused because He is transformed from a monster to a comedian by time.

To my surprise, I agree with you here.

origen314:

Scientists, a large percentage of whom are atheists, heal or greatly reduce suffering associated with the afflictions administered by God.

Interesting. Are you casting God as evil?

origen314:

This reminds me of claims that God is all-good because whatever he does is, by definition, good. It’s tautological and useless, effectively “God works in mysterious ways.”

You’re calling an argument for God “tautological and useless”? I thought you didn’t believe in the validity of reason.

 

[Richca]

This reminds me of claims that God is all-good because whatever he does is, by definition, good. It’s tautological and useless, effectively “God works in mysterious ways.” Ironically, it seems “sinful” (i.e., human) medical professionals are saving a lot of lives from God’s wrath (or malign neglect, at best).

God is the first cause of all good. Creatures are secondary causes of good. Creatures cannot act except by God’s power. Consequently, the good that the medical professions are doing have God as the first cause of all that good. That their is physical evil or defects in human beings is a consequence of original sin and all the other personal sins of human beings. I think God has made it pretty clear that we need His help and that it is not a good thing to be a against Him.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Richca:

Creatures cannot act except by God’s power.

Unless by this you mean only that God must create them before they can act, this looks to me like a denial of free will.

 

[dcartaya]

This past Sunday, my pastor’s homily centered on the idea of God’s Will. He was saying the point how God does not micromanage every single fly or mosquito in the world to decide who they give diseases to, and God does not plan for people to be in a certain place at a certain time for them to get killed in a car crash. This is because these things are not God’s Will. God’s Will is only good. These things are natural occurrences. God does not will them to happen, they just do. I was thinking about this, and it makes sense. It really is quite silly to say that when someone dies it must have been God’s Will. I feel that God can USE these situations to teach us a lesson, but he won’t will the situation itself.

When I came home, I was talking to my Dad about it. He said that he didn’t agree with our pastor. He feels that while God is our Creator and Father, He is more “in Heaven” and we are almost on our own. He felt this way because right now he is incredibly unhappy, and very depressed at where he is in his life. He feels that if God did really interact in our lives, he wouldn’t be in such a hopeless position.

I am confused between the balance of free will and God’s Will. While I know that God doesn’t will that I die in a sudden car crash, he also has the power to stop it. Why doesn’t He stop the millions of babies being killed in abortion or accidents? Is God more detached from my life than I think He is? I tend to think not. I have had several real miracles happen to me and my surrounding family through prayer, and I find it incredibly hard to believe that God isn’t guiding my every action. Also, this is where the Holy Spirit comes in as guidance.

Any opinions or comments on this concept would be greatly appreciated! It would be something that I’d love to talk to my father about, but I’m not sure how to go about it.

I am new member like you, but read a book once on Calvinism. They believed that God was in absolute control of everything. God not only knew, but pick from the beginning who was going to heaven. The people have no choice. They believe that there is an irresistible Grace that makes them go to heaven. The big problem with this idea was that then God is responsible for everything. If we have no choice then how can an ALL GOOD and ALL KNOWING GOD be responsible for sin and Evil.

God is all powerful, but does not choose to exercise his power to control everything. Just because God can control everything does not mean that has to control everything. I agree with what you said a first. Somethings are the result of human choice ie murders, thefts, illness (to and extent). Somethings, just happen like natural disasters, certain illness.etc.By the same token God is always there to provide His Grace to help us. As a father, I might let my daughter fall if I thought she would gain something bigger and better. If at any point, she as for help I would be there for her.I am not sure how much I answered you question, but I hope it helps.

 

[Richca]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richca
Creatures cannot act except by God’s power.

Unless by this you mean only that God must create them before they can act, this looks to me like a denial of free will.

“For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” (Phillipians 2:13).
“Without Me, you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

God sustains the world at every instant by His power and providence or it would vanish into nothingness.

“The truth that God is at work in all the actions of His creatures is inseperable from faith in God the Creator…Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom, and goodness, it (the creature) can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for without a Creator the creature vanishes” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #308).

 

[SentinelofTruth]

This doesn’t really clarify what I wanted you to. It is obvious that both the CCC and the bible mean it in the innocent sense, but you are making it sound like you didn’t.

 

[Richca]

This doesn’t really clarify what I wanted you to. It is obvious that both the CCC and the bible mean it in the innocent sense, but you are making it sound like you didn’t.

SentinelofTruth,
I have no idea what you mean by “innocent sense.”

The catechism says God is at work in all the actions of His creatures and that God is the First cause who operates in and through secondary causes. Theologians have traditionally called this Divine Concurrence. Traditionally, there are two main schools of thought on how Divine Concurrence operates which the catechism does not elaborate on. The catechism just states the truth.
(1) Thomist school. This school postulates a pre-motion from God for any creature to put forth an act. Some Thomists hold or have held that this pre-motion even predetermines human acts. This would appear to do away with human liberty so other Thomists hold that the pre-motion does not predetermine human acts but is kind of like a general or indifferent motion yet necessary for the creature to put forth an act. The creature determines himself whether he does this or that act. God operates in and sustains the creature throughout the act
(2) Molinist school, mostly held by the Jesuits. They postulate a simultaneous concurrence or motion. A pre-motion is not necessary. God concurs or may not concur with the creature’s act.

Besides Divine Concurrence, God must sustain creation at every instant or it would fall back into nothingness. This is called Divine Conservation.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

Richca:

I have no idea what you mean by “innocent sense.”

By innocent sense I mean the sense that does not contradict free will. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t denying free will before I agreed.