God's Wills

  • Thread starter Thread starter fakename
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

fakename

Guest
There are two wills in God -the permanent and the contingent.

And these two wills cause the existence of everything.

So I have some questions: 1) The permanent will, is knowable to man correct?, 2) the contingent will is deals with contingent beings and so the world and its creatures were created by it?, 3) the difference in wills is conceptual distinctness and not real distinctness?

Thanks
 
Hi,

I just wanted to let you know I read this and will try to somewhat answer it tomorrow when I am more awake and can digest Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma on this. I remember reading some of this in that book and some in the Summa.

God bless.
 
There are two wills in God -the permanent and the contingent.

And these two wills cause the existence of everything.

So I have some questions: 1) The permanent will, is knowable to man correct?, 2) the contingent will is deals with contingent beings and so the world and its creatures were created by it?, 3) the difference in wills is conceptual distinctness and not real distinctness?

Thanks
fakename

If you are asking if the existence of all things are dependant on God’s Will expressed in His Presence, then that would be correct. But how is that different form God’s Will as in “permanent”.

His will is fulfilled according to His satisfaction and then He declares it as good.
 
There are two wills in God -the permanent and the contingent.
:confused: Which will this fits:

(Jeremiah 18:7-10):
“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.”
 
fakename,

I have never heard of God’s Will or one of His wills being referred to as Contingent Will. I think I may know where you are coming from, but I wanted to fire this post off to clear up some terminology so that I can know where you are coming from.

Do you mean Permissive Will when you say Contingent Will?

I have heard that He has Direct and a Permissive Will. And the Church teaches clearly on this, I just have not heard His Permissive Will being referred to as His Contingent Will.

After I can truly understand your definition of Contingent Will, I can work with this. Thanks. Oh and do you mind citing some documents that have this terminology in it, because I am really interested if some Church documents mention the Contingent and Permament Will. Thanks.

God bless.
 
fakename,

I have never heard of God’s Will or one of His wills being referred to as Contingent Will. I think I may know where you are coming from, but I wanted to fire this post off to clear up some terminology so that I can know where you are coming from.

Do you mean Permissive Will when you say Contingent Will?

I have heard that He has Direct and a Permissive Will. And the Church teaches clearly on this, I just have not heard His Permissive Will being referred to as His Contingent Will.

After I can truly understand your definition of Contingent Will, I can work with this. Thanks. Oh and do you mind citing some documents that have this terminology in it, because I am really interested if some Church documents mention the Contingent and Permament Will. Thanks.

God bless.
It’s my terms since I couldn’t remember the correct ones. But I am not sure if contingent will is necessarily the same as Permissive Will or that Direct Will is the same as necessary will.

Bascially I derived the terms from here newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm Articles 3 and 8.
 
It’s my terms since I couldn’t remember the correct ones. But I am not sure if contingent will is necessarily the same as Permissive Will or that Direct Will is the same as necessary will.

Bascially I derived the terms from here newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm Articles 3 and 8.
Ahhh okay thanks. I will check into that tomorrow and then post tomorrow morning, Lord Willing. These are such late nights I am putting in in the forum. I don’t like to post such heady topics at night when I can barely think lol.

Thanks. You do raise an interesting topic. I am looking forward to discussing it. Seems like I am going to do some learning too.

God bless.
 
Ahhh okay thanks. I will check into that tomorrow and then post tomorrow morning, Lord Willing. These are such late nights I am putting in in the forum. I don’t like to post such heady topics at night when I can barely think lol.

Thanks. You do raise an interesting topic. I am looking forward to discussing it. Seems like I am going to do some learning too.

God bless.
I’ve been looking around too and I can’t find anything on the Direct Will. What is this Direct Will?

In fact I can’t even find anything about the Permissive Will. I thought I understood these but I don’t think I do.
 
I’ve been looking around too and I can’t find anything on the Direct Will. What is this Direct Will?

In fact I can’t even find anything about the Permissive Will. I thought I understood these but I don’t think I do.
Fakename,

I am so sorry that I can’t get to these answers. I have not forgotten. In fact this Sunday I plan on sitting down and gathering the sources. I got them all on my desk, but just have not found the time to get into it.

I will write the things down. I still have as yet to make it to your source that you cited. This week has been hectic. Perhaps it will slow down eventually. I also have been feeling under the weather. Thanks for your patience. I will get back to this thread as soon as I can.

God bless.
 
Fakename,

I am so sorry that I can’t get to these answers. I have not forgotten. In fact this Sunday I plan on sitting down and gathering the sources. I got them all on my desk, but just have not found the time to get into it.

I will write the things down. I still have as yet to make it to your source that you cited. This week has been hectic. Perhaps it will slow down eventually. I also have been feeling under the weather. Thanks for your patience. I will get back to this thread as soon as I can.

God bless.
Just bumping for your sake as much as mine -feel better.
 
Just bumping for your sake as much as mine -feel better.
Fakename,

Keep bumping it every day until I can get back to this thread. I have not forgotten. It’s been life has been a little bit unexpected. Thank you so much for being patient with this Little of One.

God bless.
 
There are two wills in God -the permanent and the contingent.

And these two wills cause the existence of everything.

So I have some questions: 1) The permanent will, is knowable to man correct?, 2) the contingent will is deals with contingent beings and so the world and its creatures were created by it?, 3) the difference in wills is conceptual distinctness and not real distinctness?

Thanks
The only flaw with that is that “permanent” is also contingent.
What you probably meant was something like “ground” or “foundation”.

This looks like the Word (ground, foundation or permanence) and world events (contingencies).
 
The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.

My good friend, “Little One0307,” asked me to respond to this thread.

I found the following question and answer on another Catholic forum and thought it would be helpful to share it regarding the question of God’s "positive will " vs His “permissive will”. (other terms may be used, but they convey the same meaning):

*Hi, guys —

Scripture states:

Exodus 4 [21] And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7 [3] but I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. [14] Then the Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, he refuses to let the people go.

Exodus 9 [12] But the Lord hardened the heart of pharaoh, and he did not listen to them; as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

In the above passages from Exodus, the Lord has hardened the Pharaoh’s heart. However, it would seem that God is not the cause of the hardness of his heart. Basically, God is good, and therefore, he would not harden anyone’s heart so that they can commit evil.

•Is this true or false?
St. Augustine says that God does not cause the human being to become worse.
St. Thomas Aquinas says that God is the cause of the hardness of the heart.

•Well, who’s right?
Both of these people are saints and Doctors of the Church. Both are highly regarded to be geniuses in the theology.

Please help,

I’m really curious.

Eric*
{ Would God harden someone’s heart? St. Augustine and St. Thomas appear to disagree. }

**Paul replied:

Hello Eric,

I admit the passages you speak of are a bit perplexing; but is it not possible that both Augustine and Aquinas are correct?

•Could God not have hardened the pharaoh’s heart as a response to the stubbornness freely chosen by the pharaoh?
A more philosophical look at this could see God is the First Cause of all things. We, as secondary causes, freely act as extensions of the First Cause. So whenever we do anything, we could say that God is the Ultimate Cause of it occurring; yet it is our fault if we choose not to cooperate as a secondary cause with God’s will.

There is a mystery here that has the First Cause and human free will working simultaneously, creating what is known as God’s positive will (when we cooperate with Him) and God’s permissive will (when we don’t).

Regardless, in the bigger picture, that only can God, in His eternal perspective can see, He will bring about a greater good from all of it.

Paul**

Additionally, I found the following replys from “Radio Replys.”:

Is it, then, God’s will that people should suffer from such terrible diseases as cancer?

We must distinguish between God’s positive will, and His permissive will. He positively wills all the good that happens. Suffering He permits to occur, and this only when he foresees that good can result from it. He positively wills that I should be holy. If He foresees that I will make use of good health to sin and to lose my soul, He may mercifully permit my health to be ruined, and thus lead me to Him where He would otherwise lose me. There would have been no diseases had men not sinned. God did not will sin, but having made men free, He permitted it and its consequences. This permission was a less serious thing than would have been the depriving us of our freedom.

If God is loving, just, and all-powerful, why does He permit moral evil, or sin?

Because God is Love, He asks the freely given love of man, and not a compelled love. Because He is just, He will not deprive man of the free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God, for even His power does not extend to contradictory things. Man cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it. It is man’s dignity that he is master of his own destiny instead of having to develop just like a tree which necessarily obeys natural law. Men, as a matter of fact, misused their freedom, and sin and brutality resulted. But it was impossible to give man the gift of freedom and the dignity of being master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.

Do you tell me that a good God permits deformed children, with a lifetime of misery before them?

God is certainly good, and if He permits evil of any kind it is only because He knows that He can draw greater good from it in the end. The human race misused its freedom, abandoned God, and found not happiness but misery. It is good to be just, and God’s justice permitted this misery. Also, in His wisdom, He may permit a child to be born deformed who with health and strength would fling itself into pleasures which wold end in eternal loss. Again, an imbecile is incapable of sin, and it would often seem to us a mercy had some apparently sane people been born imbeciles. Poor people, whether mentally or bodily deformed, do not spend the whole of their lives in misery and suffering. We must remember that what we call “the whole of their lives” is not confined to this earth. There is a continuance of existence in eternity, where all well be rectified.

Hope this helps.

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3
 
Quis Ut Deus 3,

Thanks so much for taking the time out to answer this thread. I have learned a great deal from reading this.

God bless you. :signofcross:
 
The contingent will is God’s arbitrary and non-necessary intention to do something and this is distinguished from necessary will which controls the natures of things (their essences). Clearly if the latter were as arbitrary as the former, then this will would make science impossible and there would be no nature to anything.

I’m pretty sure they exist but the problem is, is it true that people don’t know the contingent will? Maybe the term arbitrary will would help for research purposes.
 
The contingent will is God’s arbitrary and non-necessary intention to do something and this is distinguished from necessary will which controls the natures of things (their essences). Clearly if the latter were as arbitrary as the former, then this will would make science impossible and there would be no nature to anything.

I’m pretty sure they exist but the problem is, is it true that people don’t know the contingent will? Maybe the term arbitrary will would help for research purposes.
I have been doing some thinking on this topic, but I really dont think contingent will might be a good term for this, still doing reading.

I think direct will and permissive will as Quis Ut Deus 3 brought up in their post would seem more accurate. I don’t think God’s Will can be thought of as contingent on anything. He does not depend on anything to move His Will, He alone moves His Will. So maybe in the strictest sense of the word, it does not apply here.

However, his permissive will does allow for free choice and all. He respects our choice, but in no way is He subject to our choices, he merely respects them in the end, and gives us our eternal destiny based on our free wills.

If this does not make sense, it is late. I’ll check back though later.

God bless.
 
I have been doing some thinking on this topic, but I really dont think contingent will might be a good term for this, still doing reading.

I think direct will and permissive will as Quis Ut Deus 3 brought up in their post would seem more accurate. I don’t think God’s Will can be thought of as contingent on anything. He does not depend on anything to move His Will, He alone moves His Will. So maybe in the strictest sense of the word, it does not apply here.

However, his permissive will does allow for free choice and all. He respects our choice, but in no way is He subject to our choices, he merely respects them in the end, and gives us our eternal destiny based on our free wills.

If this does not make sense, it is late. I’ll check back though later.

God bless.
I’ve decided to use the term “arbitrary will” for the rest of this discussion to avoid such difficulties. What I mean is that God wills somethings to be contingent, not that His will is contingent on things.
 
I’ve decided to use the term “arbitrary will” for the rest of this discussion to avoid such difficulties. What I mean is that God wills somethings to be contingent, not that His will is contingent on things.
Ahhhh. I understand now. :yup: And I to like the term “aribrary will” better. So I will continue to use that term as well.

God bless.
 
Fakename,

What did you think of Quis Ut Deus 3’s post? I found it quite informative and relevant. How did you find it?

God bless.
 
The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.

My good friend, “Little One0307,” asked me to respond to this thread.

*Hi, guys —

Scripture states:

Exodus 9 [12] But the Lord hardened the heart of pharaoh, and he did not listen to them; as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

In the above passages from Exodus, the Lord has hardened the Pharaoh’s heart. However, it would seem that God is not the cause of the hardness of his heart. Basically, God is good, and therefore, he would not harden anyone’s heart so that they can commit evil.

•Is this true or false?
St. Augustine says that God does not cause the human being to become worse.
St. Thomas Aquinas says that God is the cause of the hardness of the heart.

•Well, who’s right?
Both of these people are saints and Doctors of the Church. Both are highly regarded to be geniuses in the theology.

Please help,

I’m really curious.

Eric*
{ Would God harden someone’s heart? St. Augustine and St. Thomas appear to disagree. }

**Paul replied:

Hello Eric,

I admit the passages you speak of are a bit perplexing; but is it not possible that both Augustine and Aquinas are correct?

•Could God not have hardened the pharaoh’s heart as a response to the stubbornness freely chosen by the pharaoh?
A more philosophical look at this could see God is the First Cause of all things. We, as secondary causes, freely act as extensions of the First Cause. So whenever we do anything, we could say that God is the Ultimate Cause of it occurring; yet it is our fault if we choose not to cooperate as a secondary cause with God’s will.

There is a mystery here that has the First Cause and human free will working simultaneously, creating what is known as God’s positive will (when we cooperate with Him) and God’s permissive will (when we don’t).

Regardless, in the bigger picture, that only can God, in His eternal perspective can see, He will bring about a greater good from all of it.

Paul**

Additionally, I found the following replys from “Radio Replys.”:

Is it, then, God’s will that people should suffer from such terrible diseases as cancer?

We must distinguish between God’s positive will, and His permissive will. He positively wills all the good that happens. Suffering He permits to occur, and this only when he foresees that good can result from it. He positively wills that I should be holy. If He foresees that I will make use of good health to sin and to lose my soul, He may mercifully permit my health to be ruined, and thus lead me to Him where He would otherwise lose me. There would have been no diseases had men not sinned. God did not will sin, but having made men free, He permitted it and its consequences. This permission was a less serious thing than would have been the depriving us of our freedom.

If God is loving, just, and all-powerful, why does He permit moral evil, or sin?

Because God is Love, He asks the freely given love of man, and not a compelled love. Because He is just, He will not deprive man of the free will which is in accordance with his rational nature. Nor is this against the omnipotence of God, for even His power does not extend to contradictory things. Man cannot be free to love and serve God, without being free to reject Him and rebel against Him. We cannot have it both ways. Even God, if He wants men to be free, cannot take from them the power to choose evil. If He enforces goodness, He takes away freedom. If He leaves freedom, He must permit evil, even though He forbids it. It is man’s dignity that he is master of his own destiny instead of having to develop just like a tree which necessarily obeys natural law. Men, as a matter of fact, misused their freedom, and sin and brutality resulted. But it was impossible to give man the gift of freedom and the dignity of being master of his own destiny without risking the permission of such failures.

Do you tell me that a good God permits deformed children, with a lifetime of misery before them?

God is certainly good, and if He permits evil of any kind it is only because He knows that He can draw greater good from it in the end. The human race misused its freedom, abandoned God, and found not happiness but misery. It is good to be just, and God’s justice permitted this misery. Also, in His wisdom, He may permit a child to be born deformed who with health and strength would fling itself into pleasures which wold end in eternal loss. Again, an imbecile is incapable of sin, and it would often seem to us a mercy had some apparently sane people been born imbeciles. Poor people, whether mentally or bodily deformed, do not spend the whole of their lives in misery and suffering. We must remember that what we call “the whole of their lives” is not confined to this earth. There is a continuance of existence in eternity, where all well be rectified.

Hope this helps.

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3
\

This is totally un-acceptable. The two statements contradict each other and are both flat out
suggestions.without explanation or mystery.(Augustine-Thomas)

Even the excuses above contradict the message of Christ in saying on one hand God is Love…and on the other God manipulates hope in the becoming principal…Intended malady by God, suggesting a child created be left without the vantage of choice by virtue of expected negligence … GIVE ME A BREAK

Don’t make excuse’s , address the issue head on. I will demonstrate in next post…(too many words for entry)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top