God's Wills

[FurtherSuntime]

Thankyou for patience reading through.

St. Augustine says that God does not cause the human being to become worse.
St. Thomas Aquinas says that God is the cause of the hardness of the heart.

Lets first take a look at the following illogical attempt…

"•Could God not have hardened the pharaoh’s heart as a response to the stubbornness freely chosen by the pharaoh? "…

I will offer…

If the pharaoh’s heart was not already hardened, there would NOT have been the stubbornness.
The pharaoh’s heart was hardened by himself which caused the choice. Truly, I cannot believe what I’m reading. Please THINK

Next Up in attempt to make excuse’s…

“A more philosophical look at this could see God is the First Cause of all things. We, as secondary causes, freely act as extensions of the First Cause. So whenever we do anything, we could say that God is the Ultimate Cause of it occurring; yet it is our fault if we choose not to cooperate as a secondary cause with God’s will”.

I will offer… Cause…Websters…“make happen”

1. If we claim that God is the Ultimate Cause of a human occurrence, we nullify free choice affording God to be controlling our decisions.
2. If it is argued that God is the ultimate cause of our existence and thus the"cause of the hardness of the heart" the idea continues to deny free will as …God caused our existence
   with free will, NOT without

Therefore our free will alone cause’s the hardened heart. The heart is hardened
before the choice as explained above with the pharaoh example.

1. If its argued that God created the occasion for free will and is therefore the ultimate cause
   of the hardened heart by consequence… the creation of man by God, is then as much created for the rejection of God, as for the reception of the God-Love.
   This is illogical as it creates “parity” in our sanctification vrs the lost soul.within Gods Loving Will for man. … Therefore St Thomas Aquinas is in error.

I am very much hoping to see an intelligent as well respectful response on this.
Above should explain the mistake that St Thomas Aquinas made. It is logical.

 

[fakename]

Fakename,

What did you think of Quis Ut Deus 3’s post? I found it quite informative and relevant. How did you find it?

God bless.

I didn’t help since it didn’t address God’s Wills from the standpoint of science. How much of God’s will can we know is one of my questions -that is, is arbitary will open to us or is it only the necessary will that is so open? Questions of that nature.

 

[Little_One0307]

I didn’t help since it didn’t address God’s Wills from the standpoint of science. How much of God’s will can we know is one of my questions -that is, is arbitary will open to us or is it only the necessary will that is so open? Questions of that nature.

Why must we address God with science, when science is finite and limited? IT is best to understand the things of God through the lens of faith and through Church Teaching. At best you will understand God’s Infinite and Perfect Will in a very limited way.

We can come to know His will in an much as He reveals it to us. If all His Will was open to us, He would not be God as we would know completely all of the Will of God and thenceforth all of God.

God bless.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I didn’t help since it didn’t address God’s Wills from the standpoint of science. How much of God’s will can we know is one of my questions -that is, is arbitrary will open to us or is it only the necessary will that is so open? Questions of that nature.

These are easy questions.

1. What is the standpoint of Gods Will from the standpoint of science…?

In this query it is assumed that there is a God. God then would have either created the Universe
and man intentionally or…by consequence of his existence, the universe along with man came to be.

a) It would be fair and reasonable to assume that in both possibilities in above, God would
be of a character which would be above human intelligence ect. If this is so, it would
also be reasonable to suggest that God would not be in a state of advantage , through
willing the outright denouncement or pathetic collapse of both individual or collective man.

Therefore , where God may have created the Universe intentionally, we can only assume
the intention was “about” the properties of a creative endeavor. The demise of man is not
creative. The flourishing of man is a creative endeavor in keeping with the “creative idea in creation itself”

Therefore we can logically believe with reason that God’s Will for man is nothing but holistic or creative in purpose. We know that a human life is only holistic or full in appreciation through living properly, sharing with good will. Thus calm, peace of mind , unity and joyful existence. These attributes then, can be rationally deemed as God’s Will…

b) If man is simply a consequence where a God exists, God could either be impervious to man
or interested in the ongoing flourishing of humanity. As man is consciously aware that
charity and sharing augments wholeness in existence it would be entirely illogical NOT to attribute these fundamentals to a God where God is deemed to exist. To do so would suggest
that God’s existence is without purpose relative to mans understanding. Remember, we can only deduce from mans relative understanding in all possible perception . Inspired, or otherwise. Therefore, if man was or is simply a result of the existence of God, we can assert
relative to our understanding that God again as in a) above that Gods Will for man is nothing but holistic and creative in purpose as similarly explained in a) above.

In your quote you mention the word arbitrary, how much of Gods Will is arbitrary or Gods Will
is open to us.

If I understand you correctly, this is a very good question. There are many implications with respects to how this query is answered. The following together with above is offered.

Many confusions can and do arise out of the phrase God’s Will. Reason being is that it can suggest that God requires a will …out of a factual potentiality in failure. God being God cannot fail.in his creative effort. Even though man can be perceived as failing in a transitory manner, recognized failure is real and necessary in facilitating the human existence toward flourishing. Our becoming process.

Therefore attaching a will to God can be mis-leading. If this is fair and reasonable which is hard to argue, we can take a step closer to the understood God .
The nature of God open to us, in then suggested to be within the association, of the All Giving God determined in previous argument in this entry.

Our association, through recognition of the All Giving God, unfolds the unique human nature in
“being” what is held to be worthy of association. So then mathematically, where God is believed to be, and hence to be in the holistic expectation for man …the God which would be open to ourselves can be nothing but an entity with full confidence, in a full & whole life.

The amazing thing about man and his belief system, is that he wants to comprehend that
God is Love or pure consciousness which makes perfect sense…but then he wants to contradict the platform and introduce all kinds of personal human condition.
After all is said and done…what we wind up with is multiple Gods. How so…?

Well a God would be “All” at his purpose. Hence we see All Knowing…All Powerful, All Loving…

But then man wants also to add…All Wrath, All Evil , and so on. These are primitive idea’s echoing the mindset of the ancient ignorants. Those who lived to watch others mutilated in order to feel preferred in society, and then mistakenly by God.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Why must we address God with science, when science is finite and limited? IT is best to understand the things of God through the lens of faith and through Church Teaching. At best you will understand God’s Infinite and Perfect Will in a very limited way.

We can come to know His will in an much as He reveals it to us. If all His Will was open to us, He would not be God as we would know completely all of the Will of God and thenceforth all of God.

God bless.

Knowledge and understanding is the expectation of God evidenced by the miracle… of reason:thumbsup:

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

\

This is totally un-acceptable. The two statements contradict each other and are both flat out
suggestions.without explanation or mystery.(Augustine-Thomas)

Even the excuses above contradict the message of Christ in saying on one hand God is Love…and on the other God manipulates hope in the becoming principal…Intended malady by God, suggesting a child created be left without the vantage of choice by virtue of expected negligence … GIVE ME A BREAK

Don’t make excuse’s , address the issue head on. I will demonstrate in next post…(too many words for entry)

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

What is the issue? One logical and respectful premise would be greatly appreciated.

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

 

[FurtherSuntime]

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

What is the issue? One logical and respectful premise would be greatly appreciated.

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

Hi…I will return in 4-5 days. I can only guess what your talking about, there are many inter-connecting issues with respects to what you have isolated.

Will be back in 4-5 days, if you explain relative to the postings involved…I will be happy to explain my thinking.

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

Hi…I will return in 4-5 days. I can only guess what your talking about, there are many inter-connecting issues with respects to what you have isolated.

Will be back in 4-5 days, if you explain relative to the postings involved…I will be happy to explain my thinking.

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Don’t make excuse’s , address the issue head on…

This is taken from your own post…what issue do you want addressed head on?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

 

[FurtherSuntime]

The grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

This is taken from your own post…what issue do you want addressed head on?

God bless you,
Quis ut Deus 3

Your post # 13 in this thread attempts to make excuse"s for the following contradictory statements…

St. Augustine says that God does not cause the human being to become worse.
St. Thomas Aquinas says that God is the cause of the hardness of the heart.

Either one or the other is false. I discuss in post #20 and #21.and suggest which statement above is false . Included is reasoning why one or the other must be false and NOT subject
to the evasive twisting which you employ in post # 13.

Because of the lame excuses and ridiculous justifications created in post #13 by yourself in order to avoid exposing error, I remarked that the issue involving these two comments
by Augustine& Aquinas are not… being met head on, by yourself.

If two world famous atheists in the same thought group made absolute contradictory statements, theists would be all over it with a bucket of wet blankets

I will not be back for about 5-6 days. have a great week to be sure:thumbsup:

 

[Quis_ut_Deus_3]

Your post # 13 in this thread attempts to make excuse"s for the following contradictory statements…

St. Augustine says that God does not cause the human being to become worse.
St. Thomas Aquinas says that God is the cause of the hardness of the heart.

Either one or the other is false. I discuss in post #20 and #21.and suggest which statement above is false . Included is reasoning why one or the other must be false and NOT subject
to the evasive twisting which you employ in post # 13.

Because of the lame excuses and ridiculous justifications created in post #13 by yourself in order to avoid exposing error, I remarked that the issue involving these two comments
by Augustine& Aquinas are not… being met head on, by yourself.

If two world famous atheists in the same thought group made absolute contradictory statements, theists would be all over it with a bucket of wet blankets

I will not be back for about 5-6 days. have a great week to be sure:thumbsup:

The grace and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Perhaps it would be better if we continued our discussion on a new thread.

This is the link.

:bluelite: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8098288#post8098288 :bluelite:
God’s will: active and permissive

God bless you.
Quis ut Deus 3 :bluelite: