Going back to male servers?

[BellsSmells]

The belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, a canard. Perhaps I should re-phrase this. The belief that any well-socialized, well-behaved boy does not want to serve with girls simply because they are girls is an excuse. It is a canard.

It’s an excuse for not providing the formation for a boy to prosper in what might be a somewhat difficult situation for him if he lacked the formation. If you really want to kindle a possible vocation give the boy the formation and experience to deal with less than perfect situations. Such formation simply does not come from those who outwardly dislike female servers and blame it on boys not wanting to serve with girls.

When I was a kid I was asked to serve. One of only two from public school in my parish. I declined with my parents’ support. Why? Because I found the “black skirts” and “girl’s shirts” very demeaning as a 9 year old boy.

 

[YoungTradCath]

RE: Boys don’t want to alter serve with girls because it makes alter serving “girly”.

1. I assume that means you can’t have co-ed anything at that point, or something might become “too girly” for someone.
2. You’d think some teenage boys would WANT to do things with girls their own age, not be cowed away by “girly things because a girl wants them”.

Unless they failed to abrogate the Canon Law.that denotes “cooties” are the defined punishment for a mixed girly event.

1. Incorrect. Boys going to school with girls, for example, does not make a boy girly, nor does it make a girl boyish.
2. Come on, really? Improper assumption of the desires of a young male. If a young male really wants to have interaction with females, he doesn’t want to do so while serving at the altar; that would be inappropriate, not to mention very weird. At a friend’s house would probably be better. You were a teenager once, so you can relate. This is a really weak argument. It’s saying boys should want to go to mass so they can see the cute girls there. Wrong, in more ways than one.

The thing here is you can’t “assume” this situation away, because this is a unique situation in which many cases contained within it cannot be applied to other aspects of life. Yes, I said that a certain amount of not wanting to do “girly” things applies over the course of a man’s life. The majority of that feeling, however, is experienced at a young age, and lessens over time. You can blame this on two things. One being the nature of men. Two being that society accepts and tells us that tomboy girls are OK, but girly boys are not.

---

So I take it — when you marry and have children – you would not change your baby’s diaper, push your child in a stroller, help your wife – with housework. Help her out by cooking a meal.

That’s a ridiculous assumption, one that goes far beyond the bounds of my statement. The key thing here is that there is nothing (a priestly vocation, for example…?) hinging on the husband helping out with his kids and the cooking.

For all you people supporting female altar servers, how much sense does this make: allowing boys to come to a Q&A session with a religious sister regarding a vocation as such? It doesn’t. Why? Because boys CAN NOT be religious sisters. Serving at the altar functions as a similar thing for discerning priestly vocation. It acts as a “let me try this out” forum for boys to see if they would like to do some of the things priests do. If a girl takes up that slot, well, that’s just one less slot for a boy to do it, reasons being the nature of males, pride, etc. And potentially one less priest. And all Catholics, liberals and trads alike, agree that a shortage of priests is affecting us right now, and certainly isn’t a good thing. The difference is that some of us are blind to some of the causes of this shortage.

These “innovations” have to stop. Altar girls should be one of the first to go. Everyone knows that just because something isn’t forbidden doesn’t mean it’s allowed, either.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

The belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, a canard. Perhaps I should re-phrase this. The belief that any well-socialized, well-behaved boy does not want to serve with girls simply because they are girls is an excuse. It is a canard.

It’s an excuse for not providing the formation for a boy to prosper in what might be a somewhat difficult situation for him if he lacked the formation. If you really want to kindle a possible vocation give the boy the formation and experience to deal with less than perfect situations. Such formation simply does not come from those who outwardly dislike female servers and blame it on boys not wanting to serve with girls.

When I was a kid I was asked to serve. One of only two from public school in my parish. I declined with my parents’ support. Why? Because I found the “black skirts” and “girl’s shirts” very demeaning as a 9 year old boy.

Girls are more likely to wear flip flops, short-shorts, tight shirts. They are more likely than not to wear provokative clothing. Trust me, I see it almost every sunday on the servers at my OF Parish. But it comes down to this:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

Anything a girl can do, a boy can and ought to do. I’m not even sure how a Cassock and Surplice seems like a skirt and shirt, I always thought they were manlier than the alb and cincture .

Also, to say that the belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, is false. I was the same way when I was around eight or nine and this IS the case with a few boys I have tried to recruit (that and them saying they don’t like the white dress you wear - that of which I am in agreement with). But girls serving just gives the wrong impression to young men and to repeat my previous point:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[minkymurph]

Yes.

And you don’t see anything wrong with that?

I appreciate there are cultural differences in various parts of the world and relation to that, our views may differ. Irish families are traditionally very matriarchal. In this part of thw world, men rrespective of age, like strong, confident women, and have no problem with women filling roles in society that are traditionally viewed as ‘male.’ Men who are unwilling to engage in particular activity due to the fact that some of the other participants are female, and who think the participation of women in the activity makes it and them look ‘girlie,’ are viewed as wimps with an inferiority complex who have issues to address. Perhaps that’s why female altar severs aren’t an issue in this part of the world. In addition, perhaps this issue is eclipsed in this part of the world by more significant ones.

In addition, I haven’t seen droves of young and adolescent boys leaving sports such as boxing, rugby, and power-lifting, or recruitment of young and adolescent boys into these sports fall because girls now participate in these sports and train alongside boys. Certainly some people are of the opinion they shouldn’t be. However, those views are held by those who do not participate in the respective sports and are not involved in them. Those who do don’t share their views. Young and adolescent boys do not think these sports are now a ‘girlie’ thing to do, they do not think participating in these sports makes them look ‘girlie’ because women participate in them and in my experience, if the girls are good the boys are right behind them, a mutual respect develops and they’ll bond. You have to ask why a similar thing allegedly can’t happen at the altar, and why attitudes of young and adolescent boys allegedly differ when it comes to girls being altar servers.

 

[YoungTradCath]

And you don’t see anything wrong with that?

I appreciate there are cultural differences in various parts of the world and relation to that, our views may differ. Irish families are traditionally very matriarchal. In this part of thw world, men rrespective of age, like strong, confident women, and have no problem with women filling roles in society that are traditionally viewed as ‘male.’ Men who are unwilling to engage in particular activity due to the fact that some of the other participants are female, and who think the participation of women in the activity makes it and them look ‘girlie,’ are viewed as wimps with an inferiority complex who have issues to address. Perhaps that’s why female altar severs aren’t an issue in this part of the world. In addition, perhaps this issue is eclipsed in this part of the world by more significant ones.

In addition, I haven’t seen droves of young and adolescent boys leaving sports such as boxing, rugby, and power-lifting, or recruitment of young and adolescent boys into these sports fall because girls now participate in these sports and train alongside boys. Certainly some people are of the opinion they shouldn’t be. However, those views are held by those who do not participate in the respective sports and are not involved in them. Those who do don’t share their views. Young and adolescent boys do not think these sports are now a ‘girlie’ thing to do, they do not think participating in these sports makes them look ‘girlie’ because women participate in them and in my experience, if the girls are good the boys are right behind them, a mutual respect develops and they’ll bond. You have to ask why a similar thing allegedly can’t happen at the altar, and why attitudes of young and adolescent boys allegedly differ when it comes to girls being altar servers.

What is the point in asking why it differs? Sports can’t be equivocated to serving at the altar.

 

[minkymurph]

Wanted to add this in relation to the above.

‘Real’ men in my culture are one’s who don’t have an aversion to strong, confident women but are not intimidated by them, who can play with Barbies with their daughter and are not embarrassed about it, don’t care what anyone thinks about it, but still be masculine, play football with their son and teach him to be a man. Certainly, my eldest son is going through the ‘don’t like girls and don’t want to play the ‘girlie’ games girls play’ phase which is a normal part of growing up which begins around 8 - 10. However, it is a phase, and one he’ll grow out of. Validating or nurturing notions perceptions 8 -10 year old being to have of girls; the games they play and ‘feminine things’ boys will enable them to grow out of it, and will stint development of the ‘real’ man.

 

[minkymurph]

What is the point in asking why it differs? Sports can’t be equivocated to serving at the altar.

Why not?

If you’re going to state something can’t be done, it’s fair enough to expect you to explain why?

The point in asking why it differs relates to attitudes and to clarify -

Why would young and adolescent boys think female altar servers makes serving at the altar look ‘girlie,’ when they don’t think that in relation to the sports I’ve mentioned? Why would they not want to be an altar server because some altar servers are girls, yet that doesn’t put them off the sports I’ve mentioned above? And why would the presence of girls put them off becoming an altar server when it doesn’t put them off other things?

 

[minkymurph]

I’m all for male alter servers. We have a six year old girl serving our priest and she does not do a very good job, she can’t even reach to light the candles on the alter, and I think this is too young to be an alter server.

Perhaps she is, but does your point not relate more to height and age rather than gender?
Would a male 6 year old do a better job? I know some pretty small 6 year old boys.

 

[minkymurph]

No, I will not. Cause I have no intention on getting married

Wise decision.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Why not?

If you’re going to state something can’t be done, it’s fair enough to expect you to explain why?

Because serving at the altar is different in form and essence than sports. It’s comparing something part of a divine liturgical service that is, in many cases, a natural part of the progression to priestly vocations to something that has no divine aspect at all. There is nothing real to be potentially lost (priestly vocation?) by females participating in sports, just as I earlier said that there is nothing real to be potentially be lost (priestly vocation?) by men helping their wives with cooking and with the rearing of children.

Whether or not in your country men are not as proud/wimpy/whatever as they are in mine is your call. And you’ve made the case that they aren’t. I’ll leave it at that. You mention that young boys by their very nature, in your country, go through the same “phase” as American boys. This is true. It is the nature of the development of males, and it’s the same in all countries. My point is, young people are the ones who serve mass, not older people. Therefore, it is a valid conjecture that in your nation, as in mine, the males who serve mass are young, and are going through their “phase.” As these young males are the ones who are easiest to impress the priestly vocation upon even in your country, as in mine, coupled with the fact that many–if not most–of these boys are going through their “phase,” altar girls pose a problem to vocations even in Ireland. So saying that men in your country aren’t as proud/wimpy as they are in America is not a good argument, because the situation at hand is serving at the altar, and usually young people are the ones who serve at the altar. We’re not talking about men. We’re talking about boys.

 

[mlldrl]

RE: Boys don’t want to alter serve with girls because it makes alter serving “girly”.

1. I assume that means you can’t have co-ed anything at that point, or something might become “too girly” for someone.
2. You’d think some teenage boys would WANT to do things with girls their own age, not be cowed away by “girly things because a girl wants them”.

Unless they failed to abrogate the Canon Law.that denotes “cooties” are the defined punishment for a mixed girly event.

Dr. Leonard Sax book Boys Adrift talks about how boys are checking out from many facets of life. One of the big reasons IS because certain activities are deemed “too girly”. This is a reality that will never change because of boys maturity at certain ages. The problem is us adults trying to force this on boys. Sax book is completely secular.

M

 

[Melchior_1]

It acts as a “let me try this out” forum for boys to see if they would like to do some of the things priests do.

Question; name me something an alter server does that a priest also does. I mean, “try this out” wise.

Everyone knows that just because something isn’t forbidden doesn’t mean it’s allowed, either.

But, like it or not, it is allowed right now.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Question; name me something an alter server does that a priest also does. I mean, “try this out” wise.

But, like it or not, it is allowed right now.

As has already been mentioned more than once on this thread, everything that an altar server does would be done by a priest in the case that there were no altar servers. Everything the servers do are, by default, the priest’s actions. If they were not there, he would do them.

Your second statement seems something to the effect of “na-na-na-boo-boo,” and disregards pertinent information.

 

[paperwight66]

Things that an altar server will do that a priest doesn’t? Carrying the processional cross, escorting the offertory procession and bringing lit candles in front of the pulpit to honour the reading of the Gospel for starters.

So it’s not really true to say that everything a server does is by default the actions of the priest and therefore gives the server a taster of what a priest does.

 

[minkymurph]

Because serving at the altar is different in form and essence than sports. It’s comparing something part of a divine liturgical service that is, in many cases, a natural part of the progression to priestly vocations to something that has no divine aspect at all.

I am not comparing a divine liturgical service to a sport. I am comparing attitudes of young and adolescent boys - and I am talking about boys aged between 7 - 14not men - to girls participating alongside them in traditionally male dominated, masculine sports, and being altar servers. Your claim, is altar girls put boys off becoming altar servers. It is a fact that the participation of girls doesn’t put boys off doing, so why does it put them off being altar servers? More to the point, why are fewer young men entering the priesthood? You’re argument appears to be because girls can now be altar servers. There are equally few women now entering convents as in the past, and I think we can safely say it’s not because men can now be nuns. My guess is we both know why fewer men are entering the priesthood, and it’s not because girls can now be altar servers.
All in all, this argument is one which is very easily refuted.

While I personally would not agree that being an altar server is a natural step in becoming a priest, I appreciate there are people here who have a more traditional view of Catholicism than I would have. I personally don’t see female altar servers as a step towards the ordination of women, but can understand why others do. That’s a different argument, and while I may not entirely agree with some of the more traditionalist views expressed here in relation to female altar servers, the arguments presented in this regard are more valid and more difficult to refute for theological reasons. We do need to encourage and promote vocations in the Church. Being an altar server is a means of doing that and while I may not agree, I can understand why some think it is unfair, in that the boys are able to go on to be priests and the girls can’t.

Whether or not in your country men are not as proud/wimpy/whatever as they are in mine is your call. And you’ve made the case that they aren’t. I’ll leave it at that.

I did not say men in my country are not as proud, wimpy or whatever as they are in yours. We have proud, wimpy men here too. I actually didn’t note what country you were from, I know now because you’ve drawn my attention to it. What I was referring to when I mentioned ‘cultural differences’ was people in different cultures have different perceptions and expectations of men and women, and how men who hold certain views are perceived in our culture. I wouldn’t profess to know how men with certain views are generally perceived in your culture. I was actually under the impression that American men were forward thinking than men here, and that American men has less stereotypical notions of women and traditional gender roles than they do here. So I was not intending to be offensive to American men. I would be under the impression families in America are more patriarchal as opposed to matriarchal which they are here - but I’m willing to live and learn and if I’m wrong, I stand corrected.

My point is, young people are the ones who serve mass, not older people. Therefore, it is a valid conjecture that in your nation, as in mine, the males who serve mass are young, and are going through their “phase.” As these young males are the ones who are easiest to impress the priestly vocation upon even in your country, as in mine, coupled with the fact that many–if not most–of these boys are going through their “phase,” altar girls pose a problem to vocations even in Ireland.

With respect, your statement is based on an assumption. How do you know altar girls pose a problem to vocations in Ireland? Any more than I know that altar girls pose a problem to vocations in Outer Mongolia? I agree vocations to the priesthood need to be nurtured and promoted. We need something in place to do that. However, in order to encourage young men to enter the priesthood, it is necessary to know why they don’t want to become priests. When I have discussed becoming an altar server or entering the priesthood with young boys, (7-12) I have never heard any of them state altar girls as one of their objections. I’ve heard many other objections, but not that one. Meaning, if they don’t think that, it’s not what’s stopping them. By and large, they don’t even want to go to Mass never mind become altar servers or priests.

So saying that men in your country aren’t as proud/wimpy as they are in America is not a good argument, because the situation at hand is serving at the altar, and usually young people are the ones who serve at the altar.

It’s not a good argument, and one I didn’t use. Nowhere in my post did I say men in my country are not as proud or wimpy as they are in America. In fact, I don’t think I used the term ‘proud’ at all. What I was eluding to were different perceptions and expectations of men and women in different cultures, and attitudes that may be acceptable, in one culture, may be perceived in a very different way in another. Therefore, you cannot assume your view that female altar servers serve as an impediment to boys becoming altar servers is universal, or that young boys would react to female altar servers in the same way in other cultures. If boys in this part of the world though like that, they would be told to get over it because culturally, that’s how we deal with the ‘I don’t like girls’ phase. We don’t force them to play with Barbie dolls, but we don’t believe in telling them it’s ok to think like that.

 

[Melchior_1]

As has already been mentioned more than once on this thread, everything that an altar server does would be done by a priest in the case that there were no altar servers. Everything the servers do are, by default, the priest’s actions. If they were not there, he would do them.

If there was several priests in a parish, maybe. Or like fiveteen deacons.

You ever see a Priest take on the role of a server holding a candle while the Gospels are read?

And what about being a reader? That involves going up and reading. Just like how a deacon and priest do readings. Are women not allowed to read?

Your second statement seems something to the effect of “na-na-na-boo-boo,” and disregards pertinent information.

No. My second statement is something to the effect of; “Rome says it’s alright”. The fact that Rome does allow it at this time is perfectly pertinent information.

I think what this essentially could be boiled down to, is a question of whether woman are allowed to set foot within the Sanctuary during Mass (or at all). If you fundamentally disagree with them being able to do so, of course you won’t like female alter servers, and will come up with several reasons why they shouldn’t be allowed.

 

[minkymurph]

I would just like to add in relation to culture, if a boy in my part of the world said, ‘I don’t want to that because the girls are doing it,’ the typical ‘male’ response would be, ‘Are you going to let a group of girls put you off doing something you want to? What sort of a man (irrespective of age) are you that you would let a group of girls stop you from doing something you want to do? Get stuck in and show them how it’s done. What do you mean the girls are bossy? Stand up for yourself, be a man (irrespective of age) and tell them to get lost.’

‘Molly coddling’ boys by removing girls from the scene so they don’t have to deal with them is not allowed. :tsktsk: They’re going to have to integrate with women sooner or later, and they younger the learn this the better.

Giving kids a bit of ‘tough love’ on occasion prepares them for the adult world and teaches them vital life skills.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Things that an altar server will do that a priest doesn’t? Carrying the processional cross, escorting the offertory procession and bringing lit candles in front of the pulpit to honour the reading of the Gospel for starters.

So it’s not really true to say that everything a server does is by default the actions of the priest and therefore gives the server a taster of what a priest does.

Right, but none of those things are required for a mass. I suppose I should clarify by saying that the things that are absolutely necessary for celebrating a bare-bones mass would be done by the priest in the case that there were no altar servers to assist him.

 

[minkymurph]

Girls are more likely to wear flip flops, short-shorts, tight shirts. They are more likely than not to wear provokative clothing. Trust me, I see it almost every sunday on the servers at my OF Parish.

I find this comment strange as altar servers in my part of the world all wear white robes with a hood. Who knows what they are wearing under their white robes. Girls aged 8 - 11 don’t by and large dress provocatively either. I have yet to see a girl of this age whom I would describe as ‘dressed provocatively,’ but perhaps they do in other cultures. I do see provocative clothing at Mass but not worn by the altar servers. Flip flops and short shorts don’t exactly present a problem here 'cos it’s too cold and wet.
Bl Pope Pius IX;8357450:

Also, to say that the belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, is false. I was the same way when I was around eight or nine and this IS the case with a few boys I have tried to recruit (that and them saying they don’t like the white dress you wear - that of which I am in agreement with). But girls serving just gives the wrong impression to young men and to repeat my previous point:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

~ Pius :knight1:

So, how have you seen girls dressed provocatively if they are wearing white robes?

Are you also saying that boys don’t want to become altar servers because of what they have to wear rather than the girls are putting them off?

When you say girls serving gives the wrong impression, are saying that girls on the altar places a sexual dimension on things, and you think girls on the altar make boys have sexual thoughts? In which case, the solution may be for men and boys to change their attitudes to girls and women, rather than remove the girls and women.

‘Not needed’ is also a poor argument.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am not comparing a divine liturgical service to a sport. I am comparing attitudes of young and adolescent boys - and I am talking about boys aged between 7 - 14not men - to girls participating alongside them in traditionally male dominated, masculine sports, and being altar servers. Your claim, is altar girls put boys off becoming altar servers. It is a fact that the participation of girls doesn’t put boys off doing, so why does it put them off being altar servers? Why are fewer young men entering the priesthood? You’re argument appears to be because girls can now be altar servers.

Firstly, to address sports. I think this is a cultural matter. In the United States, sports teams are still very much segregated by sex usually. It is law that if a male wants to participate on a generally female team, he may, and vice versa, but in most schools, boys and girls are segregated by default and mixing will not happen except upon request (or in nastier cases, lawsuits). Many “progressive” schools have started to change this completely, but most schools have not. I never was on a sports team for very long in high school, but I did notice the horrid treatment the boys on the football team gave one girl who decided she would join the team, and the shying-away some boys had towards it during that time. I mention this only to illustrate a common attitude here towards many situations, including serving at the altar; obviously the horrid treatment part wouldn’t apply in this case, but the shying-away would, and does.

I do not and did not say that female servers are the only reason that priestly vocations have gone downhill, but it certainly is one of them.

While I personally would not agree that being an altar server is a natural step in becoming a priest, I appreciate there are people here who have a more traditional view of Catholicism than I would have. I personally don’t see female altar servers as a step towards the ordination of women, but can understand why others do.We do need to encourage and promote vocations in the Church. Being an altar server is a means of doing that.

It’s not having a more traditional view of Catholicism. It’s appreciating, respecting, and most importantly, acknowledging the fact that a great deal of priests have served at the altar before their decision on their vocation, and reserving that duty to young boys to perpetuate future vocations. To open this door to girls not only decreases the opportunities for boys, but it implies an invitation to priestly duty for girls.

I did not say men in my country are not as proud, wimpy or whatever as they are in yours. We have proud, wimpy men here too. I actually didn’t note what country you were from, I know now because you’ve drawn my attention to it. I was actually under the impression that American men were forward thinking than men here, and that American men has less stereotypical notions of women and traditional gender roles than they do here. So I was not intending to be offensive to American men.

I thought you maybe saw my location, so that is why I thought you were referring to my country particularly. I’m sorry. I wouldn’t know what kinds of views Irish men generally have toward women, but there’s no such thing as the “American view” on anything, whether that be religion, politics, social issues, etc. America is an extremely varied country… drive for an hour and it’s like another world in many cases. In many cases, we are forward thinkers, but in many others, we certainly are not. Depends on where you are, really.

With respect, your statement is based on an assumption. How do you know altar girls pose a problem to vocations in Ireland? I agree vocations to the priesthood need to be nurtured and promoted. However, in order to encourage young men to enter the priesthood, it is necessary to know why they don’t want to become priests. When I have discussed becoming an altar server or entering the priesthood with young boys, (7-12) I have never heard any of them state altar girls as one of their objections. I’ve heard many other objections, but not that one. Meaning, if they don’t think that, it’s not what’s stopping them.

I don’t know that altar girls pose a problem to vocations in Ireland. Yes, my statement is based on assumption. But it’s an assumption that human nature is the same everywhere. As boys go through this “phase,” and as it most certainly happens irregardless of culture, I drew the line that since boys here shy away from altar service due to this, that boys in Ireland must do the same to some degree.

It’s not a good argument, and one I didn’t use. Nowhere in my post did I say men in my country are not as proud or wimpy as they are in America. In fact, I don’t think I used the term ‘proud’ at all. What I was eluding to were different perceptions and expectations of men and women in different cultures, and attitudes that may be acceptable, in one culture, may be perceived in a very different way in another. Therefore, you cannot assume your view that female altar servers serve as an impediment to boys becoming altar servers is universal, or that young boys would react to female altar servers in the same way in other cultures. If boys in this part of the world though like that, they would be told to get over it because culturally, that’s how we deal with the ‘I don’t like girls’ phase.

You’re right, you didn’t use the term proud. I used it on my own because I used it in an earlier post, and I was alluding to it in the post in which you quoted me for ease of reading if anyone decided to read through all this stuff; I did it so people would equate your term and my term for the same thing easily.