Going back to male servers?

[Corki]

And there are whole countries which use girls and boys.

Of course. The point is that just because the Vatican says that there may be some circumstance which warrent permitting girls, that doesn’t mean everyone has those circumstance nor that everyone has to use girls as altar servers. All male altar servers is not some oddity limited to a single cathedral in Arizona.

There are lots of diocese/parishes with all boys. There are lots of diocese/parishes with a mix.

What is NOT allowed is for any parish or diocese to implement an all-girl altar server group.

 

[Tsuwano]

I don’t think any one claims that female altar servers cause the problems with vocations. It’s more about giving boys every opportunity to consider whether they have a vocation. If having girls at the altar keeps boys from interest in altar serving, that will keep those boys from that oportunity. If having girls in the mix keeps the priest or bishop from addressing vocations with gatherings of servers, that’s another opportunity lost.

Sure, there are many other ways that boys and young men are exposed to the possibility of a priestly vocation. But it may not be wise to shut this one off.

The problem has many causes but it may be, in some parishes or dioceses, that one way to clear out the noise that keeps our boys from hearing a vocation is to create a better environment for altar servers.

I don’t believe one can cut off the call of the Holy Spirit to a young man to consider a vocation, even if there are girls serving the priest at the altar. One must also consider what sort of priest a young man would make if he allows the presence of female altar servers to prevent him from serving his faith community in a generous and selfless manner.
Granted, most young boys are still maturing in their relationship with the opposite sex, but this could be one instance where, with encouragement from responsible adults, that young man can grown in understanding of what it means to relate to young women in a Christian way. It seems to me that this would be a more helpful and sincere way of helping a young man discern a vocation to the priesthood than forbidding girls from serving the priest. It strikes me as odd that one could encourage one group to a life of service by forbidding another group from serving.

 

[Tsuwano]

Of course. The point is that just because the Vatican says that there may be some circumstance which warrent permitting girls, that doesn’t mean everyone has those circumstance nor that everyone has to use girls as altar servers. All male altar servers is not some oddity limited to a single cathedral in Arizona.

There are lots of diocese/parishes with all boys. There are lots of diocese/parishes with a mix.

What is NOT allowed is for any parish or diocese to implement an all-girl altar server group.

I have never had the experience of attending a parish where all the servers at the altar are female and that it is mandated that only females may serve. That exclusivity is reserved for males.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Thank you for saying that. Demonstrates the fruits of productive dialogue. I believe that as Catholics, we should promote healthy and balanced views of gender and sexuality. One thing I do see as a problem to is objections to female altar servers being put forward that portray women in a derogatory or inferior light. Your comment tells me you understand were I’m coming from, and I’m happy to expand on it for the purpose of developing greater understanding of contrasting opinions, and promote unity.

This is were you and I may have a difference of opinion. To me, being feminine does not constitute keeping your mouth shut and looking pretty while the men do the real business. I know your saying it’s one example, but I would say it’s a bad example of what it means to be feminine. Want to discuss why?

Firstly, female’s are not inferior to men. But it must be understood that girls aren’t called to the Priesthood - that is fact. I often call Altar Servers “Squires (or Knights) of the Altar”. This being said, a squire is a beginners rank to climb the clerical ranks. Seminarian, Priest, Pastor, Bishop, et cetera. But let us review block one: Squire. This is the one (and only) rank for girls. No Seminary. No Priesthood. That is fact. Therefore, if you want to be truly fair to girls, don’t get their hopes up of becoming Priests. And that certainly wont foster vocations to the convent cause the roles are completely different. Let this be clear, though, I am not advocating for a women priesthood, but since there just isn’t (fact) then there should just not be a girl altar servers.

This is what would be ideal. All girls who are currently serving can and should continue. However, no more are recruited and only boys will be recruited. Thus, in time, filtering out the girls for the boys and no broken hearts. All is well.

As to your second statement, there are some boys who just aren’t (or shouldn’t be) called to the Altar servers. It needs maturity, discipline, cleanliness, intelligence, and some decent memory to remember the responses and the postures, et cetera. therefore, the girls wouldn’t be alone in the pews. To be femenine should not mean to blur the differences between the male and female, but instead to create differences between the aforementioned genders. Do you understand as I do?

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Considering it is Rome – who has approved of girls/women serving – in what camp would Rome be.

Rome has said that it is good for boys to serve at the altar and that this is to be encouraged. RS also says that, in some cases, girls can be permitted.

It’s not exactly a ringing endoresement for girl altar servers, more of a grudging permission.

---

I well know what Rome/RS-2004 says. But the fact remains girls/women are allowed at the discretion of the bishop. So in light of this — Where does it leave Rome --for allowing girls/women to serve.

 

[minkymurph]

Of course. The point is that just because the Vatican says that there may be some circumstance which warrent permitting girls, that doesn’t mean everyone has those circumstance nor that everyone has to use girls as altar servers. All male altar servers is not some oddity limited to a single cathedral in Arizona.

There are lots of diocese/parishes with all boys. There are lots of diocese/parishes with a mix.

What is NOT allowed is for any parish or diocese to implement an all-girl altar server group.

Did anyone say it was? As I am aware, the arguments on this thread are the altar group should be all male, not all female. No one has argued the altar group should be all female and significantly, I’ve haven’t heard women argue that, but I’ve heard plenty of men suggest the altar group should be all male. What does that suggest? Women do not have the same aversion to men as men do to women? Women aren’t so readily put off doing what they want to do just because boys do that? That women see no need to exclude men, but men see a need to exclude women? That traditionally masculine activities are in some way viewed as superior to traditionally feminine activities?

One could really jump to all sort of conclusions. However, I say, some men don’t like women moving into what they see as their territory, and it has nothing to do with doctrinal or theological matters.

 

[minkymurph]

I don’t believe one can cut off the call of the Holy Spirit to a young man to consider a vocation, even if there are girls serving the priest at the altar. One must also consider what sort of priest a young man would make if he allows the presence of female altar servers to prevent him from serving his faith community in a generous and selfless manner.

Good point. Men, in fact more men than today, entered the priesthood when celebrating Mass was punishable by death. I reckon that’s more off-putting than female altar servers.

Granted, most young boys are still maturing in their relationship with the opposite sex, but this could be one instance where, with encouragement from responsible adults, that young man can grown in understanding of what it means to relate to young women in a Christian way. It seems to me that this would be a more helpful and sincere way of helping a young man discern a vocation to the priesthood than forbidding girls from serving the priest. It strikes me as odd that one could encourage one group to a life of service by forbidding another group from serving.

Exactly. How do boys learn to relate to girls spiritually, if they are not taught boys and girls can come together in everything but altar serving.

 

[minkymurph]

Firstly, female’s are not inferior to men. But it must be understood that girls aren’t called to the Priesthood - that is fact. I often call Altar Servers “Squires (or Knights) of the Altar”. This being said, a squire is a beginners rank to climb the clerical ranks. Seminarian, Priest, Pastor, Bishop, et cetera. But let us review block one: Squire. This is the one (and only) rank for girls. No Seminary. No Priesthood. That is fact. Therefore, if you want to be truly fair to girls, don’t get their hopes up of becoming Priests. And that certainly wont foster vocations to the convent cause the roles are completely different. Let this be clear, though, I am not advocating for a women priesthood, but since there just isn’t (fact) then there should just not be a girl altar servers.

I take your point, but I don’t share your view that serving at the altar should be seen as a step towards ordaining women.

This is what would be ideal. All girls who are currently serving can and should continue. However, no more are recruited and only boys will be recruited. Thus, in time, filtering out the girls for the boys and no broken hearts. All is well.

I agree it might be your ideal. Irrespective of that, ideals rarely become a reality.

As to your second statement, there are some boys who just aren’t (or shouldn’t be) called to the Altar servers. It needs maturity, discipline, cleanliness, intelligence, and some decent memory to remember the responses and the postures, et cetera. therefore, the girls wouldn’t be alone in the pews. To be femenine should not mean to blur the differences between the male and female, but instead to create differences between the aforementioned genders. Do you understand as I do?

~ Pius :knight1:

I was right with you up until the point you said, ‘do you understand as I do?’ That could be construed as a put down - ‘I know more than you and I understand the deep things of God better than you,’ and my opinions in the eyes of God are more correct than yours. Should I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t mean it like that?

 

[Corki]

Did anyone say it was? As I am aware, the arguments on this thread are the altar group should be all male, not all female. No one has argued the altar group should be all female and significantly, I’ve haven’t heard women argue that, but I’ve heard plenty of men suggest the altar group should be all male. What does that suggest? Women do not have the same aversion to men as men do to women? Women aren’t so readily put off doing what they want to do just because boys do that? That women see no need to exclude men, but men see a need to exclude women? That traditionally masculine activities are in some way viewed as superior to traditionally feminine activities?

One could really jump to all sort of conclusions. However, I say, some men don’t like women moving into what they see as their territory, and it has nothing to do with doctrinal or theological matters.

Well, I am female and I am a strong advocate of an all-male rule for altar serving. I have no aversion to men or to women. On the other thread on this same topic, the women seem to be running about 50/50. I just don’t see equality as meaning that everyone has the same tasks all the time. And that has everything to do with theology.

If the Vatican intended altar serving to be an equal serving opportunity, it wouldn’t matter if a diocese said they wanted all girls. But that’s not permitted. It is not a matter of equality or worthiness but more of appropriateness and value. The flow of value is not to the individual child but value to the Church herself.

 

[Corki]

As to your second statement, there are some boys who just aren’t (or shouldn’t be) called to the Altar servers. It needs maturity, discipline, cleanliness, intelligence, and some decent memory to remember the responses and the postures, et cetera. ~ Pius :knight1:

We are a small parish so all the boys are called to altar service by our pastor. Not all will make it long-term but all the boys are asked and given the opportunity. Girls are allowed too if they (or more often their mothers) request it.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

We are a small parish so all the boys are called to altar service by our pastor. Not all will make it long-term but all the boys are asked and given the opportunity. Girls are allowed too if they (or more often their mothers) request it.

As it has been said before, Altar servers are not needed. I prefer serving alone at the OF, therefore I have no one else in my way and it is just plain easier. So why don’t you suggest to the Pastor that it turns to only one server a mass? If that isn’t the norm already.

I was right with you up until the point you said, ‘do you understand as I do?’ That could be construed as a put down - ‘I know more than you and I understand the deep things of God better than you,’ and my opinions in the eyes of God are more correct than yours. Should I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t mean it like that?

Allow me to rephrase myself. Do you understand my point as I meant it?

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[Corki]

As it has been said before, Altar servers are not needed. I prefer serving alone at the OF, therefore I have no one else in my way and it is just plain easier. So why don’t you suggest to the Pastor that it turns to only one server a mass? If that isn’t the norm already.

~ Pius :knight1:

We have four at most Sunday Masses, none scheduled for daily Mass. One of the scheduled servers is the MC (always an older boy). I think Mass would work just fine with 2. After all, at the washing of hands, you need one to pour and one to hold the urn. But I am quite happy with our current set-up of 4. The previous pastor did not use servers at all and occassionally when we have had a visiting priest, the scheduled servers were dismissed.

But this is a topic for another thread.

 

[Bluegoat]

A high mass with no, or one server would be pretty weird. And what to do when the bishop visits?

 

[DAAVEED1590]

Girls are more likely to wear flip flops, short-shorts, tight shirts. They are more likely than not to wear provokative clothing. Trust me, I see it almost every sunday on the servers at my OF Parish. But it comes down to this:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

Anything a girl can do, a boy can and ought to do. I’m not even sure how a Cassock and Surplice seems like a skirt and shirt, I always thought they were manlier than the alb and cincture .

Also, to say that the belief that boys do not want to serve with girls seems to be an excuse, is false. I was the same way when I was around eight or nine and this IS the case with a few boys I have tried to recruit (that and them saying they don’t like the white dress you wear - that of which I am in agreement with). But girls serving just gives the wrong impression to young men and to repeat my previous point:

It is not needed to have girls on the Altar.

~ Pius :knight1:

Amen

I have had the exact same experence. When I was younger, I was aphrehencive to serve the Alter because of the presence of Alter girls. I felt I had to compeate with them. I see the same attitude not only in myself when I was young, but also in the (few) younger male servers at my Church as well.

As an Alter Boy hailing from a fairly liberal parish, I know from experence that when both sexes are allowed to serve, the girls always blot out the boys because, at 9 and 10, when most boys and girls begin serving, the girls are simply more mature and outgoing than their male counterparts. I see it at my parish. Not to mention it gives boys the impression that alter serving is a “girls job” when they see the vast majority of servers are girls. It also discourages vocations.

Like Pius, I say that there is no need for female servers.

 

[BellsSmells]

Amen

I have had the exact same experence. When I was younger, I was aphrehencive to serve the Alter because of the presence of Alter girls. I felt I had to compeate with them. I see the same attitude not only in myself when I was young, but also in the (few) younger male servers at my Church as well.

As an Alter Boy hailing from a fairly liberal parish, I know from experence that when both sexes are allowed to serve, the girls always blot out the boys because, at 9 and 10, when most boys and girls begin serving, the girls are simply more mature and outgoing than their male counterparts. I see it at my parish. Not to mention it gives boys the impression that alter serving is a “girls job” when they see the vast majority of servers are girls. It also discourages vocations.

Like Pius, I say that there is no need for female servers.

No. You offer this as an absolute, as a given and it’s not If a boy receives proper formation from his parents and good training from whomever prepares altar servers, a boy will without a doubt be able to hang in there and thrive at least within the context of serving Mass. But that takes a great deal of work by the parents. It’s probably safe to say that parents who share your mindset don’t even believe that their efforts can make a difference and allow their sons to prevail. You’ve tacitly given up already and kids will sense that from a mile away.

 

[minkymurph]

Well, I am female and I am a strong advocate of an all-male rule for altar serving. I have no aversion to men or to women. On the other thread on this same topic, the women seem to be running about 50/50. I just don’t see equality as meaning that everyone has the same tasks all the time. And that has everything to do with theology.

I agree, equality does not mean everyone has the same tasks all the time. However, if the issue has everything to do with theology, then it should be discussed from a theological perspective. The argument ‘at a certain age boys don’t want to do things with girls, and don’t want to do what girls do’ cannot be termed a theological argument. It is better defined as an anthropological or sociological argument. In which case, it is equally valid to introduce counter-arguments of an anthropological or sociological nature.

You may have no aversion to men or women, but it is being argued some young boys have an aversion to doing something they see a girl can doing. Is doing something girls and boys do really all that bad? Should we be endorsing the view, covertly or otherwise, that it is? We know for certain boys aren’t put off doing other things because ‘the girls are doing it too.’ So why altar serving?

Do you think it’s at least possible, that the boys just don’t want to become altar servers, that it there parents and/or teachers who want them to become altar servers and they are using this as an excuse? Do you think it’s at least possible that some boys and men would like to see all-male altar servers because they personally are more comfortable around men than women, and removing female altar servers would lessen their personal discomfort? While this is understandable, should we covertly or otherwise endorse the view that it is acceptable to be less comfortable around members of the opposite sex than our own?

In addition, recent scandals in the Church hasn’t exactly encouraged young men to consider the vocation of priesthood. If being an altar server is perceived as a natural stage of progression towards entering the priesthood, do you think it’s at least possible this puts young boys off, because they simply just don’t want to become priests, and while being an altar server does not in itself mean they will become priests, they don’t want others to get the impression the priesthood is something they might consider in later years, or perceive them as a potential recruit?

If the Vatican intended altar serving to be an equal serving opportunity, it wouldn’t matter if a diocese said they wanted all girls. But that’s not permitted. It is not a matter of equality or worthiness but more of appropriateness and value. The flow of value is not to the individual child but value to the Church herself.

I don’t know were people get this ‘all girls’ idea from. I haven’t seen anyone on this thread say altar servers should all be girls. I agree it’s not a matter of equality or worthiness, and it’s not all about the individual child, or perhaps more significantly the individual child’s parents. I appreciate some may be of the opinion female altar servers are inappropriate, and having female altar servers is unnecessary because it serves no value. As I understand it, this is due to fact they see serving at the altar as a step towards entering the priesthood, and women can’t become priests. While I personally may not agree that serving at the altar should only be open to those for whom it is possible to become a priest, it’s a better argument than the ‘girls put boys off’ one, and it’s also a theological one rather than an anthropological or sociological one. Therefore, perhaps what we should be discussing is, should serving at the altar be perceived as a step towards entering the priesthood, or not?

 

[paperwight66]

Excellent post, minkymurph! Perfect summary of the situation so far, and a positive suggestion as to how to carry the discussion forward.

(I do hope this doesn’t sound patronising - it really is sincere).

 

[YoungTradCath]

Therefore, perhaps what we should be discussing is, should serving at the altar be perceived as a step towards entering the priesthood, or not?

This is tricky. “Perceiving” it as a step towards ordination is different than it actually being, in many cases, a step towards ordination. I suspect you chose that word carefully and inserted it equally as carefully. Perception is very damaging to reality.

If our perception of altar service being a step towards ordination is that it is not, one of our subsequent and natural follow-up actions is to open altar service to females. However, our perception is fickle. It changes as our social surroundings change, regardless of true reality.

With that said, it is very obvious that in many cases, if not most, altar service actually is a step towards ordination. I mean “step” only in the sense that it usually applies, not that it is any way mandatory. Again, if females, either because altar service is not perceived as a common step towards ordination or for some other reason, are allowed to serve at the altar, it acts upon a natural tendency of boys of a certain age, which is the natural problem, and creates another problem.

I have stated several times that young boys, by their developmental nature, go through a “girls are icky” phase. Different cultures handle this in different ways, with some stringently discouraging it and others ignoring it or letting it play out its course. In either case, it is still present to some degree or another, and discourages male altar service to a degree commensurate with how much this phase is put up with or not.

The created problem is of a logistical nature. As there are only so many masses and so many altar service duties to be carried out, there are only so many altar servers used every week in a parish. Even if in some societies the above-mentioned “phase” is discouraged and plays little part in a boy’s development because of that discouragement, and there are simply tons of male volunteers for altar service, they still have to compete with females for a chance to actually serve. Disclaimer: I know what the preceding sentence sounds like; oh, those poor boys!, but that is not what I mean. Logically, it makes sense, and reality is faithful to this logic.

 

[minkymurph]

As to your second statement, there are some boys who just aren’t (or shouldn’t be) called to the Altar servers. It needs maturity, discipline, cleanliness, intelligence, and some decent memory to remember the responses and the postures, et cetera. therefore, the girls wouldn’t be alone in the pews. To be femenine should not mean to blur the differences between the male and female, but instead to create differences between the aforementioned genders. Do you understand as I do?

~ Pius :knight1:

I’ve come back on this in response to your further explanation.

No, girls wouldn’t be alone in the pews, but boys would be alone on the altar. I agree that serving at the altar requires, maturity, discipline, cleanliness, intelligence, and some decent memory to remember the responses and the postures, et cetera. However, one of the arguments being put forward here, is young girls are more mature and disciplined than their male counterparts, that boys at a certain age are going through the, ‘don’t like girls’ phase, and the way to address that is to pander to those immature notions by removing the girls from the scene - as opposed to developing and enhancing their ability to interact with their female counterparts and nurture a qualities such as maturity and discipline.

I can’t concur with you on creating gender differences because we don’t need to create gender differences - they are naturally there. However, perhaps I’m just nit-picking again. I agree that we should not blur differences between male and female, and I guess were your coming from is if serving at the altar is perceived as a preparatory stage to filling a specifically male role, that of a priest, you perceive that as a blurring of differences.

You also say it’s unfair to permit girls to be altar servers if they cannot enter the priesthood. Therefore, this seems to be the real issue rather than all these debates about girls putting boys off etc. which can readily be refuted. The arguments you have put forward aren’t so readily refuted, perhaps because they are of a theological nature and not based on anthropological and sociological opinions. So, if you don’t mind I’d like to raise the same question with you as I did with another poster. Should serving at the altar be perceived as a training ground or pathway to the priesthood, or should it not? Further to this, it has also been stated altar servers aren’t necessary at all; that there’s nothing they do the priest couldn’t do himself on one side of the coin, yet on the other it has been stated serving at the altar is an essential element in encouraging young boys to take up the vocation of priesthood. I would like to suggest clarification in relation to these arguments as they are completely contradictory of one another.

 

[minkymurph]

Excellent post, minkymurph! Perfect summary of the situation so far, and a positive suggestion as to how to carry the discussion forward.

(I do hope this doesn’t sound patronising - it really is sincere).

Didn’t think it was patronizing at all. Thanks for the compliment and recognition of the fact I am trying to carry the discussion forward in a positive way.