Going back to male servers?

[minkymurph]

This answer is based on nothing more than my own feelings:

When I see a female server I’m uncomfortable with it.
I prefer to see boys serving.

I have the same feeling about accepting the Host from someone other than the Priest.
I won’t do it…
It doesn’t feel right.
No matter where I’m sitting, I’ll get into the line that goes to the Priest.

I do my best not to be judgmental about this; I simply follow my heart and gut.

Well I may not see things from your perspective but I admire honesty. Thank you for stating the real reason you feel the way you do., and for not judging others who may not be of the same opinion.

 

[TimothyH]

I think that blaming the drop in priestly vocations on altar girls is a rediculous claim. Contraception and the culture of recreational sex it has created is a more likely candidtate.

The culture of recreational sex on demand, made possible through widespread availabilty and use of contraception, has created a society where 25% of US men are addicted to porn. Young boys are raised on healthy doses of sexual content on TV and freely available porn on the internet. I mean, let’s face it… a whole generation of 16 year old boys addicted to porn and masturbation doesn’t create the most favorable conditions for priestly vocations and the fact that their father’s arn’t out there teaching them about self control doesn’t help.

Back in the day, Catholics had big families, 5, 6 or 7 kids, and every kid had a brother or an uncle or a cousin who was a priest. This was especially true of Italian, Irish and other ethnicities with strong family bonds who tended to live together instead of moving half way across the country. Look at any list of seminarians - three quarters of them are hispanic - good Catholic men from big, tightly knit families.

You want vocations? Stop using contraception. Stop blaming ten year old girls for what we have done to our boys.

-Tim-

 

[kozlosap]

I think the title of this thread should really be “Moving forward again with male servers?”

Having altar girls will diminish vocations by virtue of having less altar boys and, maybe as bad, create a whole generation of wannabe priestesses. The Church loses twice.

I serve sometimes 6 or 7 Latin Masses a week in NYC and it has changed my life. I enjoy great camaraderie with my fellow servers, Deo gratias.

There is locker room mentality everywhere, ie, “great camaraderie with my fellow servers”. As the mother of a 27 year old female attorney who served mass for 5 years from 11-16, I can tell you that she never once thought she should become a priestess. There were equal numbers of boys and girls who served together at our large parish, and I don’t remember any boys backing away because there were girls allowed to serve. 100 years ago women couldn’t vote in this country, and there were very few women doctors and lawyers - do you think it was better for recruiting men into the professions? As a member of a huge Jesuit parish, I can assure you that no woman or girl is outside the church marching with a sign that says “Women priests now!”. Girls do not want to be relegated to washing the linens for the alter or arranging flowers either - these girls love their Church and the Holy Mass and want to participate in a respectable manner. How sad to blame girls for the lack of vocations coming from the United States. I think there are many other reasons for the lack of vocations, and girl alter servers are not one of them. When a young man becomes a priest, he has to deal with the fact that over 60% of his parish will be women and will not be content with having subservient role as important parts of the laity.

 

[Will_S]

When a young man becomes a priest, he has to deal with the fact that over 60% of his parish will be women and will not be content with having subservient role as important parts of the laity.

Interestingly enough, where the Traditional Latin Mass is celebrated, that percentage is different. If you leave out the children (for some reason there seem to be a lot of little girls at my parish) then it’s probably equal, or even slightly in favor of the men where I assist at Mass.

 

[Corki]

That’s one definition. It also means:

That’s why you must always read a word in the context of the sentance. In the sentance I initially wrote, it meant to diminish in effectiveness.

Such as?

– The Sera International group hold lots of vocation awareness outings.
– Most Catholic high schools have vocation awareness initiatives, especially the all-boys schools which have 'built-in" awareness since they have more priests around anyway.
– Our Bishop has meetings boys can attend (this is later in the discernment process)
– The Catholic grade schools have priests who come to their school Masses and talk about vocations

These are just a few things that go on regularly in our diocese.

The only training ground for the priesthood I know of here is St Malachy’s College, and all boys school for 11 - 18 year old’s in Belfast. It has always seen as a training ground for the priesthood.

Again, training is much later in the process. What I am talking about is an environment where a boy might consider, even if just remotely, whether he may have a calling to the priesthood.

I suppose that’s one of the reasons I don’t see the issue with altar servers. If you want to encourage your son into the priesthood, you send him to St Malachy’s

.

There used to be seminary high schools in the US, I don’t think there are anymore. But you don’t send a boy to seminary high school until AFTER he has expressed an interest in pursuing a vocation. Altar serving is what happens BEFORE.

One of the things that comes out of some of the interviews is the fact that the seeds of a vocation are sewn early. When you listen to men talk about why they decided to become a priest, it is rarely a stratight line. Men often take different paths in college and then return to a seminary to complete discernement. But what the majority of them say is that the first seeds were sewn in the family and in their childhood parish, often when serving at the altar.

 

[Corki]

I think that blaming the drop in priestly vocations on altar girls is a rediculous claim.

I don’t think anyone is doing that. What the diocese in the OP is saying is that, since altar serving has a long tradition of encouraging the priesthood, why block that way? If we need more priests we should pursue lots of different ways to encourage vocations, this is just one of them.

 

[minkymurph]

That’s why you must always read a word in the context of the sentance. In the sentance I initially wrote, it meant to diminish in effectiveness.

True, but we know what use of the term ‘degrade’ can construe.

In addition, even using the term ‘degrade’ in that context - if a girl/woman carries it out a particular function or role as opposed to a boy/man carrying it out it is less effective and diminished - suggests that particular role or function becomes a lesser one purely because a girl/woman is doing it. As to the effectiveness of a particular role or function, that depends on what effects it is hoped or desired will be produced by that particular role or function.

In addition, to state a particular role or function is not as effective if carried out by a girl/woman, suggests that a girl/cannot produce the effect that a boy/man can. Therefore, what effect is desired or hoped for in relation to serving at the altar, and how can this effect only be produced if the function is carried out by a boy/man?

– The Sera International group hold lots of vocation awareness outings.
– Most Catholic high schools have vocation awareness initiatives, especially the all-boys schools which have 'built-in" awareness since they have more priests around anyway.
– Our Bishop has meetings boys can attend (this is later in the discernment process)
– The Catholic grade schools have priests who come to their school Masses and talk about vocations

These are just a few things that go on regularly in our diocese.

That being the case, one has to question why the numbers of young men entering the vocation of priesthood continues to fall. In addition, one has to question to what extent the numbers of young men taking up the vocation of priesthood could be increased by a return to male only altar servers. In fairness, the only way to find out whether or not it would be effective in encouraging young men to take up the priesthood is have only male altar servers. However, if all these other measures you have listed above are in place yet numbers are falling, my guess is the effect would be minimal. In addition, it may also serve to demonstrate female altar servers is not as significant a factor in terms of the numbers of young men entering the priesthood as it has been proposed they are.

Again, training is much later in the process. What I am talking about is an environment where a boy might consider, even if just remotely, whether he may have a calling to the priesthood.

There used to be seminary high schools in the US, I don’t think there are anymore. But you don’t send a boy to seminary high school until AFTER he has expressed an interest in pursuing a vocation. Altar serving is what happens BEFORE.

Altar serving does happen before a boy has expressed and in interest in pursuing a vocation. However, The school I mentioned is not a seminary school, it is a High School, and children here enter High School at 11. Not all boys who go to this school will enter the priesthood, because it is a High School and you don’t have to express a desire to be a priest to go to it. However, traditionally the vocation of priesthood is particularly promoted and encouraged in this school and boys who go to this school are viewed as prospective candidates for the priesthood. The Catholic Church in Ireland to a large extent draws it’s priests from this particular school, many Irish priests and bishops went to it, and up until recently it was headed by priests and bishops. It is only in recent years a secular principle has been appointed.

In addition, Catholic schools here are not private. They are funded by the State. I know we pay for it through or taxes, it’s not like it’s free but to date, if you want your child to have a Catholic education we have the luxury of not having to pay school fees. Children here start Primary school (Junior High) at 4 - much younger than other parts of the world. Not that that’s necessarily a good thing but that’s another argument. Therefore, the first seeds are being sown before they would be old enough to be an altar server, and that continues throughout their school life as most children who attend a Catholic Primary school will also attend a Catholic High School. I’m not saying this to infer things the our education system is better or other countries aren’t doing a good a job. Far from it which I’ll address below. I’m saying it to illustrate creating an environment were a boy may consider even remotely whether or not he may have a calling to the priesthood, and to an extent training is not something that happens later here. It begins before a child would be old enough to serve at the altar (4) and continues until they are 18.

 

[minkymurph]

One of the things that comes out of some of the interviews is the fact that the seeds of a vocation are sewn early. When you listen to men talk about why they decided to become a priest, it is rarely a stratight line. Men often take different paths in college and then return to a seminary to complete discernement. But what the majority of them say is that the first seeds were sewn in the family and in their childhood parish, often when serving at the altar.

In spite of the methods we have to creating an environment were a boy may consider even remotely whether or not he may have a calling to the priesthood from a young age, the facts speak for themselves. The number of young men entering the priesthood continues to rapidly diminish. A young man’s decision to enter the priesthood is largely dependent on his family and Parish. This is what I see as the problem. School and Parishes encourage children to become altar servers. If the family does not, and in fact don’t even go to Mass, why would a child become an altar server or consider the priesthood? Schools prepare them for the sacraments and the parents can trot along on the big day, take pictures have a little party or go for a meal to celebrate, and that is the sum total of their role. Time and time again here I have heard the role of the Domestic Church emphasized because the only time many children are taken to Mass by their parents is when they receive make their first penance, receive their first Holy Communion, and Confirmed and when the school takes them. Done and dusted and the service all performed by the school and people of the Parish. The only other times they are taken to Mass is when the school takes them. Perhaps if we had to pay school fees and attend classes for the sacraments in the evening we wouldn’t take our faith for granted so much. I’ve seen baptisms and weddings were everyone is happy to go the party to celebrate but won’t go the Church. When my son received his first Holy Communion his godparents didn’t attend because they had friends coming over and were too busy even to make an appearance at the Church. We’ve come a long way from a people who risked their lives to attend a Mass. Recent scandals have caused people to loose faith in the Church, dissuaded young men from entering the priesthood, and dissuaded families from encouraging their sons to become priests. Female altar servers are the least of peoples concerns, and a return to male altar servers in an attempt to encourage vocations would be equivalent to putting a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

 

[minkymurph]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. What the diocese in the OP is saying is that, since altar serving has a long tradition of encouraging the priesthood, why block that way? If we need more priests we should pursue lots of different ways to encourage vocations, this is just one of them.

You may not be blaming the drop in priestly vocations on female altar servers. Others on this thread categorically stated it is a cause in an unambiguous way.

I don’t see any reason why serving at the altar should cease to be a way of encouraging the priesthood just because girls are now permitted to do it, and I don’t see how permitting female altar servers block the path to the priesthood. I don’t see how permitting girls to be an altar server when they know they can’t become priests is more upsetting for them than not allowing them to be altar servers because they can’t become priests. However, if someone tells me that girls have stated they find it more upsetting to be permitted to serve at the altar knowing they can’t become a priest, and would find the fact that they can’t become priests less upsetting if they were not permitted to serve at altar, I’ll stand corrected.

 

[minkymurph]

I’d also like to introduce something else into the equation.

It has been stated that girls should not be altar servers because they cannot become priests. What about boys who will never become a priest? For example - a boy with Down’s Syndrome or a Learning Difficulty? Certainly, their gender would not preclude them from becoming a priest. But other things would and realistically, boys with certain disabilities are never going to become priests. Therefore, is it unfair to them to permit them to serve at the altar, because they will never become a priest? I’m talking about a boy who would be capable of carrying out the duties of an altar server and in the appropriate manner.

 

[Tsuwano]

OK rephrase -

The opportunity for altar serving to be a source of encouragement for vocations is degraded by the presence of female altar servers?

Is this opinion or proven fact? If it is fact, I would like to see your statistics.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Is this opinion or proven fact? If it is fact, I would like to see your statistics.

minkymurph isn’t disagreeing with you.

 

[Tsuwano]

There is locker room mentality everywhere, ie, “great camaraderie with my fellow servers”. As the mother of a 27 year old female attorney who served mass for 5 years from 11-16, I can tell you that she never once thought she should become a priestess. There were equal numbers of boys and girls who served together at our large parish, and I don’t remember any boys backing away because there were girls allowed to serve. 100 years ago women couldn’t vote in this country, and there were very few women doctors and lawyers - do you think it was better for recruiting men into the professions? As a member of a huge Jesuit parish, I can assure you that no woman or girl is outside the church marching with a sign that says “Women priests now!”. Girls do not want to be relegated to washing the linens for the alter or arranging flowers either - these girls love their Church and the Holy Mass and want to participate in a respectable manner. How sad to blame girls for the lack of vocations coming from the United States. I think there are many other reasons for the lack of vocations, and girl alter servers are not one of them. When a young man becomes a priest, he has to deal with the fact that over 60% of his parish will be women and will not be content with having subservient role as important parts of the laity.

Excellent points! Well said!

 

[minkymurph]

minkymurph isn’t disagreeing with you.

Thank you. I wasn’t.

 

[minkymurph]

Is this opinion or proven fact? If it is fact, I would like to see your statistics.

This is a question asked in response to another poster, who appears to be of this opinion. So in response to your question; it is not to my knowledge a fact, it is an opinion, (not mine, another poster) and no I can’t provide statistics.

 

[Corki]

You may not be blaming the drop in priestly vocations on female altar servers. Others on this thread categorically stated it is a cause in an unambiguous way.

I don’t see any reason why serving at the altar should cease to be a way of encouraging the priesthood just because girls are now permitted to do it, and I don’t see how permitting female altar servers block the path to the priesthood. I don’t see how permitting girls to be an altar server when they know they can’t become priests is more upsetting for them than not allowing them to be altar servers because they can’t become priests. However, if someone tells me that girls have stated they find it more upsetting to be permitted to serve at the altar knowing they can’t become a priest, and would find the fact that they can’t become priests less upsetting if they were not permitted to serve at altar, I’ll stand corrected.

So when the parish organizes a tour of the seminary for the altar boys and the girls aren’t invited, what do you think will happen? Do you think the girls (and their mothers) will graciously say, “that’s ok, I know this is an activity only for the boys” or do you think they will complain until the activity is cancelled alltogether? I am betting,based on my experience with the moms of altar girls, that it will be the latter.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t think anyone is doing that. What the diocese in the OP is saying is that, since altar serving has a long tradition of encouraging the priesthood, why block that way? If we need more priests we should pursue lots of different ways to encourage vocations, this is just one of them.

Well, actually, I think quite a few posters were arguing that. It is a bit ridiculous - what must be the very least of reasons if it is one at all. And honestly it is something that could easily be replaced with something like boys and girls separate service groups or some other “club” where they interact with the priests as separate groups.

 

[Kit15]

So when the parish organizes a tour of the seminary for the altar boys and the girls aren’t invited, what do you think will happen? Do you think the girls (and their mothers) will graciously say, “that’s ok, I know this is an activity only for the boys” or do you think they will complain until the activity is cancelled alltogether? I am betting,based on my experience with the moms of altar girls, that it will be the latter.

And I’m betting based on my own experience as an alter girl with well catechized female peers that it would be the former.

 

[Tsuwano]

This is a question asked in response to another poster, who appears to be of this opinion. So in response to your question; it is not to my knowledge a fact, it is an opinion, (not mine, another poster) and no I can’t provide statistics.

I failed to notice the question mark at the end of your statement. Thank you for making it clear to me . . . with gentleness, I might add. I’ll read more carefully in the future.

 

[minkymurph]

So when the parish organizes a tour of the seminary for the altar boys and the girls aren’t invited, what do you think will happen? Do you think the girls (and their mothers) will graciously say, “that’s ok, I know this is an activity only for the boys” or do you think they will complain until the activity is cancelled alltogether? I am betting,based on my experience with the moms of altar girls, that it will be the latter.

I’m sure moms of altar girls wouldn’t be very happy if the Parish or Parish School wanted to take altar boys on a trip and the girls weren’t invited. However, to be honest I’ve never heard of altar servers being taken on a tour of a seminary school. But I appreciate other parts of the world are different.

In this part of the world altar servers are drawn from Parish Primary Schools. (4-11) That being the case, the majority of altar servers are under 12. There’s an unwritten rule that children serve for a maximum of three years. Reason being, children begin serving at the altar at 8/9 and if they continue until they are 14 or older, younger children don’t get the opportunity because the positions are taken by older children. Therefore, It is rare to see an altar server in this part of the world who is more than 12. However, other Parish’s are different and I suppose it depends on the number of schools and children of a certain age in the Parish. Therefore, in answer to your question I couldn’t see the case would arise were a trip to a seminary school would be organized for altar servers and girls would not be invited because by and large 8-11’s aren’t taken on a tours of seminary schools. a tour of a seminary school is something that might happen when they are older. In which case, they would no longer be altar servers. However, I appreciate other parts of the world do things differently and I’m not suggesting our way is the best way and everyone should do the same.

The school I mentioned in my previous post is a High School, (11-18) but it also serves as a preparatory seminary school. They may arrange tours to a seminary school. However, not many boys would still be serving at the altar at this age and in any case, it’s an all boys school. In addition, it’s unlikely this would be taken on a tour of seminary school much before the age of 16 because of the way the education system is structured. As I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you, becoming a priest requires considerable academic ability and dedication to study irrespective of spirituality of maturity. Children here can leave school at 16 and those who do, would not be able to obtain the academic qualifications necessary to enter the priesthood. By and large, only those of high academic ability who want to go to university or enter a profession stay on at school until they are 18. Therefore, prospective priests are drawn from this group because they have demonstrated they have the academic ability and dedication to study necessary to become a priest. Boys of this age would no longer be altar servers so I couldn’t see the situation you have outlined arising when children are older.