Going to hell for leaving the Catholic church

[fkjuliano]

I really appreciate the way in which you answered to me, you made your point and used scripture. I commend you.
BUT, i do not reject God or Christ. But what you quote in reference to the vine is Christ, again i do not deny Christ in any way, but i use the Bible as my personal guide when people talk on the subject of Theology. Hence i answer in direct biblical quotes that refer to what we speak of,

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Through the bible old and new testament the Bible seems to be consistent in all. It does not contradict. I am only says that i can only believe what is said in this book.

If you for example say to me that Christ flew, guess what i am going to do?
I will take out my KJV Bible and ask you where did you get that info from. If it is in there then i believe you if you tell me your great great great grand dad said it was so and it is not in the bible please tell me why should i believe you? This is my conundrum.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Please, like i said do not take me the wrong way, how can a person discern what is right and what is wrong? believe in man? or do we turn to the bible for guidance?

Ephesians 5:17 - Do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. Does a just, loving, gracious God require what is impossible?

2 Timothy 2:15 - To be approved of God and not ashamed, we must handle rightly the word of God. How can one handle rightly a message he cannot understand?

Mark 7:14 - Jesus’ teachings were intended for the common people (multitudes), and He expected and commanded them all to understand His teachings.

Luke 8:11; Matthew 13:19-23 The seed of the gospel is the word of God. Those whom the Lord considers to be good and fruitful are those who understand the word. Those who do not understand are unacceptable.

So God requires and commands all people to understand, and we must understand to have His approval and to have faith. Yet how can God be just, loving, and gracious in these requirements, if in fact understanding is impossible?

Do you see the problem with what you are saying, it is contrary to biblical teaching, God through Christ gives us insight, do you agree?

None of these verses says that you should interpret the Bible by yourself. On the contrary, Scripture itself tells otherwise: [BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

The fundamentalist position that every man, woman and child should interpret the Bible by themselves is itself unbiblical. In fact, it is a notion that could only be born out of a culture steeped in prideful individualism. It also ignores the fact that the Bible, though certainly inspired by God, is a document authored by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, is the church that was born on Pentecost, 50 days after the Resurrection of Our Lord. It is the Church that follows God’s word unfailingly, disregarding the contempt and the hatred displayed by the adherents of secular culture. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, her earliest members wrote the books of the New Testament. Then in 393, at the Council of Hippo, the Church, already called Catholic for centuries, compiled the Canon that we have today from a large number of books claiming to be inspired Scripture. So if you deny that the Catholic Church is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, what basis do you have to even believe the Bible? We only know that the Bible is in fact the holy word of God because the Church founded by Jesus Christ tells us so.

To put it another way, God did not write a book, but He founded a Church. Then that Church
assembled a collection of the books that were truly inspired by God into one comprehensive book. We call that book the Bible.

That is why anyone who asserts he is able to understand Scripture all by himself, without consulting the Church appointed by God to write and interpret that book, cannot be called anything other than arrogant. Their private interpretations obviously do not enjoy the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because if they did there would not be thousands of Protestant denominations and millions of individual interpretations, each one claiming to possess the true word of God in spite of huge differences in relation to others who say the same thing.

 

[PJM]

=Redman1986;6581480]I was raised Catholic, am now in my early 20’s, and have recently made the decision to leave the Catholic church. I was curious about what the Catholic church itself would say about me leaving, and according to the Catechism, someone who has full knowledge of the church’s mission, beliefs etc, and then leaves the Catholic church, will not achieve salvation. It sounds like I’m going to hell.

This seems kind of weird. I suppose I can understand how the Catholic church got so big if it has a “you go to hell if you leave” clause in the Catechism.

Thoughts?

Guess again friend. It was in the bible nearly 2000 years BEFORE it got into the Catecheism:shrug:

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [chosen by God for His CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Eucharist] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [By those empowered by God to understand and share His Word; His CC] **if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. **

Therefore it is God’s Judement; not something the CC "made up."

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[distracted]

Is God’s position sufficient?

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [chosen by God for His CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Eucharist[/COLOR]] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [By those empowered by God to understand and share His Word; His CC] ***if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. ***

[Pat

you give this person no hope…

"it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned"

thanks for giving me another passage to prove Purgatory (not that I myself needed one but others do)…

notice the words NEAR to being cursed… not ARE CURSED…

as long as someone is alive he can repent and be forgiven… The only unforgivable sin is to not repent…
[/quote]

 

[distracted]

None of these verses says that you should interpret the Bible by yourself. On the contrary, Scripture itself tells otherwise: [BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

The fundamentalist position that every man, woman and child should interpret the Bible by themselves is itself unbiblical. In fact, it is a notion that could only be born out of a culture steeped in prideful individualism. It also ignores the fact that the Bible, though certainly inspired by God, is a document authored by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, is the church that was born on Pentecost, 50 days after the Resurrection of Our Lord. It is the Church that follows God’s word unfailingly, disregarding the contempt and the hatred displayed by the adherents of secular culture. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, her earliest members wrote the books of the New Testament. Then in 393, at the Council of Hippo, the Church, already called Catholic for centuries, compiled the Canon that we have today from a large number of books claiming to be inspired Scripture. So if you deny that the Catholic Church is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, what basis do you have to even believe the Bible? We only know that the Bible is in fact the holy word of God because the Church founded by Jesus Christ tells us so.

To put it another way, God did not write a book, but He founded a Church. Then that Church
assembled a collection of the books that were truly inspired by God into one comprehensive book. We call that book the Bible.

That is why anyone who asserts he is able to understand Scripture all by himself, without consulting the Church appointed by God to write and interpret that book, cannot be called anything other than arrogant. Their private interpretations obviously do not enjoy the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because if they did there would not be thousands of Protestant denominations and millions of individual interpretations, each one claiming to possess the true word of God in spite of huge differences in relation to others who say the same thing.

what are your thoughts on post 296?

 

[PJM]

you give this person no hope…

"it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned"

thanks for giving me another passage to prove Purgatory (not that I myself needed one but others do)…

notice the words NEAR to being cursed… not ARE CURSED…

as long as someone is alive he can repent and be forgiven… The only unforgivable sin is to not repent…

***Actualy I’m just his messanger, not the author.

However, God, Paul [the author inspired by God] and lil’ ol’ me all agree. Even fallen away Catholics can be saved if they REPENT, embrace, accept and practice all that the CC Teaches as required by God. ***

 

[ralphy]

for one thing, how do you know why most Catholics leave the Church?

I heard tht most leave cuz they aren’t in conformity with one or more teachings… like birth control… Even the ones who stay dont believe in the ban on artif b control

in any case, if you study history you will find that that there was ONE Church established by Christ and that it is the roman Catholic Church… If you read the early Church fathers, you will discover that the Church back then was very Catholic… Eucharist… etc…

so if the Catholic Church is the one Christ established on EArth and it cannot fail… (“I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” St Mt 16:18)

how can there be any other Church?

and how is it that people dont believe what that Church teaches?

If the Church Christ established has failed (apostatized) then Jesus didn’t keep HIs promise…

is that the kind of Jesus you believ in?

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what the church of Christ is. I will tell you that the church of Christ are those people who have come to Christ, have repented of their sin, having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and are covered in the Blood of Christ. They belong to the body of Christ regardless of which denomination they are called, and “they” are His church. There are only two kinds of people on this earth: the saved and the unsaved. The saved will go to heaven (on the merit of Christ ONLY, and nothing else), the unsaved will go to hell (having trusted in their own merit). RC’s are sinners like the rest of us, and need to be saved through the blood of Christ. By the way, there are no stops on the way to heaven or hell. Ralph

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by distracted 
for one thing, how do you know why most Catholics leave the Church?

I heard that most leave cuz they aren’t in conformity with one or more teachings… like birth control… Even the ones who stay don’t believe in the ban on artificial birth control

The number one reason for Catholics leaving is NOT believing in the Sacraments; especially Catholic Holy Communion being the REAL Jesus, and Confession [because one seldom hears about in Mass homilies] [See 1 Jn. 1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5: 16-17, and Jn. 20:19-23.] It’s all Biblical. Secondary issues like Relativism [my beliefs are as valid as yours] “don’t judge me and I won’t judge you… accepted and taught as The Universal New Age religion have extreme Satanic influence in the present times.

how can there be any other Church? And how is it that people don’t believe what that Church teaches?

***Because heretics like Luther and Calvin; fed by PRIDE thought they knew more and knew better than God, the Apostles, the Pope and all of there fellow priest and Bishops.

Lack of Faith, Understanding, Wisdom is even today imposed by a just God of the followers of these Leaders who abandoned God. So folks like Ralph, don’t understand [and will pay the consequences of what GOD PERMITS them to know, and they freely chose to ignore] as Divine Justice MUST include opportunity for the truth being ignored, as simply denying God and His Truths.*** [John 14 and John 17].

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR[/COLOR]] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Heb.6: 4 to 10: “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [chosen by God for His CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, Eucharist] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [By those empowered by God to understand and share His Word; His CC[/COLOR]] **if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.” **

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [One Triune God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma and Tradition[/COLOR]] one baptism, [By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

Love and prayers,

Pat**

 

[PJM]

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what the church of Christ is. I will tell you that the church of Christ are those people who have come to Christ, have repented of their sin, having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and are covered in the Blood of Christ. They belong to the body of Christ regardless of which denomination they are called, and “they” are His church. There are only two kinds of people on this earth: the saved and the unsaved. The saved will go to heaven (on the merit of Christ ONLY, and nothing else), the unsaved will go to hell (having trusted in their own merit). RC’s are sinners like the rest of us, and need to be saved through the blood of Christ. By the way, there are no stops on the way to heaven or hell. Ralph

Hi again Ralph,

I see your still not “getting the truth”. Not surprised because God has imposed on those like yourself struggling with a severe lack of faith,a lack of Understanding and a lack of Wisdom as a penalty for not accepting His Bible, His Faith and His CC.

I’ll again [only because you claim to be a bible-church] share the following: ** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Your position actually teaches against what the Bible say’s.

James 2: 14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? **So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” **

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Phil.2: 12 **“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; “

I know YOUR free choice decision about salvation gives you a warm tingly feeling; even though it is anti-biblical, but take care my friend that it does end you up in a place that is a lot more than warm.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[fkjuliano]

what are your thoughts on post 296?

I think our brother PJM has a knack for selecting verses that go right to the point.

 

[ralphy]

Hi again Ralph,

I see your still not “getting the truth”. Not surprised because God has imposed on those like yourself struggling with a severe lack of faith,a lack of Understanding and a lack of Wisdom as a penalty for not accepting His Bible, His Faith and His CC.

I’ll again [only because you claim to be a bible-church] share the following: ** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Your position actually teaches against what the Bible say’s.

James 2: 14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? **So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” **

**Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Phil.2: 12 **“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; “

I know YOUR free choice decision about salvation gives you a warm tingly feeling; even though it is anti-biblical, but take care my friend that it does end you up in a place that is a lot more than warm.

Love and prayers,
Pat

You quoted in you letter, (His CC). What you call the ROMAN CC is not the church Christ started. There was no Roman name in it’s context, only “catholic” meaning universal. If you are saved (born again), you are part of His body (the church), if you are not saved, you are not part of His church. Denomination has no effect as to belonging to the body of Christ. Ralph

 

[eucharisteo]

You quoted in you letter, (His CC). What you call the ROMAN CC is not the church Christ started. There was no Roman name in it’s context, only “catholic” meaning universal. If you are saved (born again), you are part of His body (the church), if you are not saved, you are not part of His church. Denomination has no effect as to belonging to the body of Christ. Ralph

You are only part correct in your assertion. There is only one Chruch that Christ founded. It it the Church of Christ as the Catholic Church refers to out of scritpure and practical. The Catholic Church is that Church that Christ formed. The Roman was inserted by anti-papal Englishmen during the reformation of the Church of England when Henry the VIII broke ranks from the Bishop of Rome. However, many Catholics have embraced the derogatory term and made it there own. The “Roman” attached to the name of ecclesial communities within the Church body signifies that they are of the Latin Rite, the largest of the rites within the Universal or whole Church.

 

[PJM]

=ralphy;6657287]You quoted in you letter, (His CC). What you call the ROMAN CC is not the church Christ started. There was no Roman name in it’s context, only “catholic” meaning universal. If you are saved (born again), you are part of His body (the church), if you are not saved, you are not part of His church. Denomination has no effect as to belonging to the body of Christ. Ralph

***My dear friend Ralphy,

Your audacity goes well with your lack of canor and lack of understanding.

Find in the Bible for me the terms: Trinity; Catholic, Once saved Always Saved, Everything thing we need in in the bible…

Ralph we both know it is historical fact that there was only One Church, One Faith founded by Jesus Himself, personally. When because of severe persecuation that Church was forced to relocate from Jerusalem to Rome because of Revolutation against Rome by the Jewish nation [about 70 A.D.] ; Rome then became the headquaters for that One new Church with the One new Faith, founded by Jesus.

Now Ralph do you feel better?

As for YOUR “church of christ” … It was founded by1. by humans 2. by heretics from the ONE real, true, and only “Church of Christ,” which Christ Himself founded. Matt. 16:15-19

There are nearly 100 references to ONLY One Church in the NT Ralphy; can you really ignore all of them:shrug:***

Love ya Brother!
Pat

 

[ralphy]

***My dear friend Ralphy,

Your audacity goes well with your lack of canor and lack of understanding.

Find in the Bible for me the terms: Trinity; Catholic, Once saved Always Saved, Everything thing we need in in the bible…

Ralph we both know it is historical fact that there was only One Church, One Faith founded by Jesus Himself, personally. When because of severe persecuation that Church was forced to relocate from Jerusalem to Rome because of Revolutation against Rome by the Jewish nation [about 70 A.D.] ; Rome then became the headquaters for that One new Church with the One new Faith, founded by Jesus.

Now Ralph do you feel better?

As for YOUR “church of christ” … It was founded by1. by humans 2. by heretics from the ONE real, true, and only “Church of Christ,” which Christ Himself founded. Matt. 16:15-19

There are nearly 100 references to ONLY One Church in the NT Ralphy; can you really ignore all of them:shrug:***

Love ya Brother!
Pat

The “body of Christ” is His church. His church does not have “one” location, or a “head quarters”, it is universal (catholic means universal), there are people all across the world who are saved, from every nation and tongue, part of His body. Ralph

 

[PJM]

=ralphy;6657687]The “body of Christ” is His church. His church does not have “one” location, or a “head quarters”, it is universal (catholic means universal), there are people all across the world who are saved, from every nation and tongue, part of His body. Ralph

Actually your close Indeed salvation is possible outside of Christ CC but still flows through it, bu vitrue of a common Baptism and beleif in the Triune Godhead.

It is less certain for non-Catholics who have rely on HOPE that God has indeed forgiven you. Only Catholics who Confess to Christ Priest in the Sacrament of KNOWN FORGIVENESS; Confession /Reconcillation can know for sure.

But as I have stated repeately the NT has nearly ONE HUNDRED REFERECES to "One Faith and One Church. Playing Ostrich does not alter the facts. That One Church; One Faith is the Catholic Church and Catholic Faith. So say’s Christ Himself in John 17:John.17 Verses 14 to 19… "I [Jesus] have given them [my Catholic Apostles] thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. [God cannot deny Himself anthing He Wills] **As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **
**And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they [the Apostles and His Catholic Church] also may be consecrated in truth. **

Love and prayers Ralphy

 

[distracted]

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what the church of Christ is. I will tell you that the church of Christ are those people who have come to Christ, have repented of their sin, having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and are covered in the Blood of Christ. They belong to the body of Christ regardless of which denomination they are called, and “they” are His church. There are only two kinds of people on this earth: the saved and the unsaved. The saved will go to heaven (on the merit of Christ ONLY, and nothing else), the unsaved will go to hell (having trusted in their own merit). RC’s are sinners like the rest of us, and need to be saved through the blood of Christ. By the way, there are no stops on the way to heaven or hell. Ralph

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what the church of Christ is. I will tell you that the church of Christ are those people who have come to Christ, have repented of their sin, having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and are covered in the Blood of Christ. They belong to the body of Christ regardless of which denomination they are called, and “they” are His church. There are only two kinds of people on this earth: the saved and the unsaved. The saved will go to heaven (on the merit of Christ ONLY, and nothing else), the unsaved will go to hell (having trusted in their own merit). RC’s are sinners like the rest of us, and need to be saved through the blood of Christ. By the way, there are no stops on the way to heaven or hell.

as you can see… i have no serious disagreement w/ what you are saying…

***so uh…

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what my idea of the church of Christ is***

 

[distracted]

The number one reason for Catholics leaving is NOT believing in the Sacraments; especially Catholic Holy Communion being the REAL Jesus, and Confession [because one seldom hears about in Mass homilies] [See 1 Jn. 1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5: 16-17, and Jn. 20:19-23.] It’s all Biblical. Secondary issues like Relativism [my beliefs are as valid as yours] “don’t judge me and I won’t judge you… accepted and taught as The Universal New Age religion have extreme Satanic influence in the present times.

[Pat

i dont see how anyone can ascertain exactly waht reasons any given person has for leaving the Chrch… People say they are leaving cuz they dont believe… maybe its true of some but others just say that cuz it sounds better than “i dont want to believe cuz i want to be able to marry this person… and can’t in the Church” … or “i wnat to use birth control”… or whatever…
[/quote]

 

[Cinette]

I see your valid point. You should feel BLESSED! that God has graced you with growing up “very Catholic”. The gift he gave you is remarkable. I envy you. Conversion, though exciting and all, is wonderful, however you have to remember that we are going from not knowing to finally knowing. The lack of community in ones conversion makes conversion all that much more difficult - lonely. What keeps us moving is our new founded relationship with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and all the Angles and Saints. We turn to them for intercession because they become our new family. We lost family and friends, not to mention validation from them, when we converted. Our reputation plummeted considerable and now they do not listen to anything we say. My personal relationships with immediate family alone has been quite costly growing up.

Be joyful you were not subjected to the living hell on earth. We are to seek peace, which does not mean one will be happy on earth but rather joyful in the gift of knowing truth in God. Being happy is a side effect that graces us once and a while if we’re fortunate. Those that seem happy are either faking it or experiencing the joy of God. A true Christian experiences hardship even among his fellow Catholics. Protestants are greatly ignorant and do not even realize it nor do they want to admit it because it would draw them closer to God in the form of realizing the lack of truth in what they have held on to their entire life. It’s actually a desperate act of faith. Who can blame them? I certainly do not. I prayed for knowledge of the truth all my life, not to be strong in what I was taught as much as to know the real truth. That made a major difference in my life. I came close to not believing in God because there were so many nuances involved in the experience. This is NOT something you should envy because it makes life very difficult for us.

Our children are at risk because we are their only Catholic family. I fear for them since they do not have the support system that you have present. That is one reason I hope they choose priestly or religious life. We tried to put them in Catholic schools, but the atmosphere was not a good example for them and the non-Catholic influence in there was discouraging at best.

We see many fallen away Catholics that become the worst anti-Catholics. Though I am considered a “revert” I grew up non-Catholic and secular at best with an anti-Catholic slant on my mom’s side. My dad’s Catholic side was stumbling at best. So I did not have good influence in my life. I don’t even know what a p;roper family looks like other than by example of my Protestant grandparents. They have been my model all my life. And it was very hard becoming Catholic all over again when I see so many Catholics not taking their faith as serious as we did in our previous Protestant faith, which we did not consider Protestant at the time.

My wife’s conversion or falling away came first. Mine was a miracle and then so was her as I went through this major conversion she began to study the Catholic teachings of the Church and said it made sense to her. Once she said that she had been studying about Mary and her role and said it made sense to her. In a state of shock, because I didn’t even get it, I asked her explain it to me. Her 2 minute explanation made more sense to me than any prior teaching I had ever learned as a young Catholic once who claimed to get it, but secretly was ashamed to admit I didn’t really understand. I tried but I stuck to the words in their defense and once I realized I was hanging on to pride rather than knowledge and understanding I crumbled nearly over night. That is why I stick to my gun that most Catholics do NOT really know what they are leaving. If they did they wouldn’t even remain Christian.

*I enjoyed reading your post eucharisteo - it was sincere and rings true. You will be blessed for taking a stand on your Faith - the last beatitude comes to mind.

I understand how people envy converts because they want that experience. I often feel that way when I read of Jewish converts. However conversion is ongoing - we constantly experience conversion as we grow in our Faith. I am a revert after 27 years and I love my Catholic Faith - it has such beauty - there is beauty in truth. My husband converted from atheism - it took a long time but now when I see him going to Holy Communion every day my heart glows and swells. His faith is beautiful to behold.

On the other hand only one of my four children is Christian and this hurts. I can see that only the Holy Spirit can help and yet when I remember how cynical my husband used to be I know that anything is possible. All I can do is pray. My children are so influenced by the secular society. Like St Monica I must persevere.

Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

I can see why you call yourself CONFUSED!!! At the same time you do have a beautiful heart.

Jesus said that everyone who BELIEVED in HIM would be saved.
I think that all Christians, with their heart open to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Mary, will be saved…
10 commandments are the very core of the moral Law. Obey 10 commandments, love Christ and let Him guide your life and you’ll be saved.

I do not approve so much INTOLERANCE that exists between CHRISTIANS.
I do not approve KILLING, so many times ENCOURAGED by the Church authorities.*What you say here makes sense - I also believe that sincere Christians will be saved - I cannot see our Merciful God turn them away. I believe that many non-Christians will also be saved. I hate talking about other people’s salvation because God is the ultimate judge. I believe we should always point out the truth and persuade them but we cannot say that someone will not be saved - we do not know their hearts.

INTOLERANCE is a sin.

You are dead wrong when you say that Church authorities ENCOURAGED KILLING! Blessing the troops on both sides is not a sign of encouragement - no, the blessing is to hope they will return safely to their families. The Church can never be in favour of killing. Yes you certainly are CONFUSED my friend. *

Example:

During the war in Croatia (1991-1995) between Croats (Catholic) and Serbs (Orthodox), priests from both sides were blessing weapons. Each side felt “endangered”. As a result of such Churches’es behaviour, thousands of innocent people were killed…many others suffered and many still have been suffering… C’mon think for a moment - the priests blessed the weapons perhaps so that any bullet may go astray not to kill.

Now, you tell me…Does the behaviour of the Catholic Church, encouraging bloody war, *This is a gross exaggeration and misinterpretation!*was really in accordance with Jesus’es words (If someone slap your cheek, turn to him another one- free interpretation)? Is God’s commandment not: DO NOT KILL? You are obviously hurt and traumatised by the war my friend.

Has anyone of the Jesus’es apostles ever been violent? Has any one of them tried to kill someone? Has anyone of them killed someone, indeed?

These are questions that cannot be properly answered by the Catholic Church. If it tries to, it has to negate DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS OF JESUS (NT). Sorry, I’m not pleased with some of the Catholic Church teachings. I agree with you.

Important: I’m not anti- Catholic. I strongly believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit lead this Church. *Absolutely!*This Church has been founded on the Holy ground. But, I’m also almost sure that Satan has his followers deeply positioned within the Catholic Church formal organisation… *Of course you are absolutely right - the Pope even said so - the devil will always go after those closer to God - of any Christian faith - when my son converted to his Protestant faith (he was not baptised) the devil attacked him. The devil won’t be found going after people in the bordellos. There is no work for him there. He goes after those who are closer to God and he can be found in the pews. He may be a “beautiful” friend…!!

God love you
Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

for one thing, how do you know why most Catholics leave the Church?

I heard tht most leave cuz they aren’t in conformity with one or more teachings… like birth control… Even the ones who stay dont believe in the ban on artif b control

in any case, if you study history you will find that that there was ONE Church established by Christ and that it is the roman Catholic Church… If you read the early Church fathers, you will discover that the Church back then was very Catholic… Eucharist… etc…

so if the Catholic Church is the one Christ established on EArth and it cannot fail… (“I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it” St Mt 16:18)

how can there be any other Church?

and how is it that people dont believe what that Church teaches?

If the Church Christ established has failed (apostatized) then Jesus didn’t keep HIs promise…

is that the kind of Jesus you believ in?

You are so right my friend!

It is hard for the Catholic Church and even other Christian churches to co-exist with the secular world because the latter thinks Faith is a joke! They constantly ridicule those who have Faith.

There is a section of the media that is totally anti-Catholic and anti-Christian. The media is important and has a responsibility but too often the media is on the side of those who hate the Body of Christ and will promote lies. We have to be Christian soldiers and defend Christianity. This is why it is so important that all Christians take a stand together. We are all part of the Body of Christ to a smaller or greater extent.

Jesus kept his promise and the Holy Spirit is hard at work but he also needs our co-operation. We live in hard times - the devil is hard at work and it is for us to recognise that.

I am answering your posts while you are all fast asleep as I am on the other side of the world! I have the thread to myself!

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

I can see by your quote that you have no idea what the church of Christ is. I will tell you that the church of Christ are those people who have come to Christ, have repented of their sin, having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and are covered in the Blood of Christ. They belong to the body of Christ regardless of which denomination they are called, and “they” are His church. There are only two kinds of people on this earth: the saved and the unsaved. The saved will go to heaven (on the merit of Christ ONLY, and nothing else), the unsaved will go to hell (having trusted in their own merit). RC’s are sinners like the rest of us, and need to be saved through the blood of Christ. By the way, there are no stops on the way to heaven or hell. Ralph

*I have no doubt that a sincere Christian - no matter of his denomination - who loves God and tries to live a good faithful life will be saved. However, it is a pity that they do not avail themselves of the sacraments and accept the fullness of truth. It makes their journey more difficult, that’s all.

God love you
Cinette*