Going to hell for leaving the Catholic church

[gurneyhalleck1]

Pretty strong statements, KC, seeing as how it is God Himself who decides those who are damned and those who are saved. Be careful here.

And think about it, how many Catholics leave the Catholic Church feeling it is the Church of Christ, as you called it? Don’t most folks leave the Catholic Church believing it is either heretical or lacking or just plain wrong? Why would a person leave her if he believed the Church to be the one, true Church and all else false? That would be strange indeed.

Those who deliberately leave the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church despite knowing that it is the Church of Christ go to hell. So while a Protestant who has no knowledge of Catholicism may be saved if he is a good man, a Catholic who deliberately becomes a Protestant despite knowing that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ is damed to hell.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So the Lutheran friends I have in CAF who are former Catholics as well as the Anglicans who are former Catholics, etc. are all going to fry? Do you think fear is a stronger force than love and preaching the truth in love, as we are called to do? Shouldn’t an individual want to be Catholic because of the beauties they perceive in the teachings, the sacraments, authority, and growing in faith, not merely fear of hell?
Anyone else on your hell list?

Fear of hell will likely keep someone in the one true faith.

Humans are not flies. The faithful were rock solid in their commitment when the Church decreed that those who did not abide were anathema. After the 1960s when some of the powerful in the Church ‘opened up’ souls by their hundreds of millions were lost when many of the faithful apostzied.

In the glory of the resurrection, Holy Mother Church should speak only the words of triumphalism and uncompromising faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Pretty strong statements, KC, seeing as how it is God Himself who decides those who are damned and those who are saved. Be careful here.

And think about it, how many Catholics leave the Catholic Church feeling it is the Church of Christ, as you called it? Don’t most folks leave the Catholic Church believing it is either heretical or lacking or just plain wrong? Why would a person leave her if he believed the Church to be the one, true Church and all else false? That would be strange indeed.

Gurney, it would be strange indeed. But perhaps KC is saying those folks will go to hell too if they previously believed fully. There seems no concensus about someone who believed fully in the CC but no longer does.

 

[dzheremi]

Bullheaded triumphalism will turn more people away than appeals to fire and brimstone will retain.

The Church’s position, re: leaving when you know that the Church is “true”, makes absolutely no sense.

 

[distracted]

I don’t see how a statement like this is going to help keep someone in the Catholic faith when they are having doubts. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and you keep Catholics Catholic through love and charity rather than spouting brimstone and damnation.

never could figure out ths one thing:

who wants flies??

If Catholics want to leave the church… they weren’t true Catholics in the 1st place (not speaking of the uncatechized… they are ignorant)

and we should never sacrifice truth for the sake of getting along…

 

[distracted]

No argument from me, distracted. And as a teacher trust me, the age of nine is even questionable!! LOL

i hear ya… been a long time since i’ve been around realy young children… but when i think about it… i totally get your point… just have to thnk about it a little while…

i guess 7 is the age of reason… so prob shoulda said 7…

 

[takers]

It was rather plainly spoken, but it is the truth, nonetheless. Is it charitable to fudge the truth?

Yes, I do believe that fudging the truth is the appropriate answer at times. If someone asks you how they look do you say “very nice” or do you say “well, for someone 15 pounds overweight with large bags under their eyes you look just okay”? Truth definitely has a purpose and a point, but there are times when chosing your words carefully has just as much importance.

Fear of hell will likely keep someone in the one true faith.

I disagree with this. If someone is already have doubts about the truthfulness or fullness of the church then bringing up the arguement of hell is, in my mind, similar to bringing up the arguement of Nazis. Once it’s been brought up the conversation comes to a stop. If the only reason one should be Catholic is to not go to hell, well, that’s not a very loving image. Don’t be Catholic because of the sacraments, don’t be Catholic because of obtaining a closer relationship with God. Nope, only be Catholic so you don’t go to hell.

never could figure out ths one thing:

who wants flies??

Frogs!

If Catholics want to leave the church… they weren’t true Catholics in the 1st place (not speaking of the uncatechized… they are ignorant)

and we should never sacrifice truth for the sake of getting along…

Why couldn’t they be Catholic and then be confused? In reading the forums it seems that those that are steadfast in their belief, almost to a fanatical view, are those that were once another religion and then have converted to become Catholic. Why can’t cradle Catholics doubt, explore other religions, and then come home? Would they only be considered true Catholics once they came back? Or are they not allowed to have doubts and explore other religions as they started from Catholicism? Don’t we want Catholics to have a fully committed understanding of what ‘to be’ Catholic means? If we don’t allow Catholics to question and then come home aren’t we doing our cradle Catholics a disservice by saying that others can explore and come to the church on their own merit, but since you were born into the church you don’t get a choice you must stay or you were never a Catholic in the first place? At what point do you blindly follow the faith because if you have doubts you’re told you’re not a real Catholic and are going to hell for questioning?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Those who deliberately leave the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church despite knowing that it is the Church of Christ go to hell. So while a Protestant who has no knowledge of Catholicism may be saved if he is a good man, a Catholic who deliberately becomes a Protestant despite knowing that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ is damed to hell.

Most Catholics who leave the Catholic Church leave because they have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not the church Christ started as described in the New Testament. They leave because they believe that the Catholic Church teaches doctrines that are not supported by scripture (for example purgatory, indulgences, transubstantiation, perpetual virginity of Mary, assumption of Mary. etc.). Do you honestly believe these sincere followers of Christ, who are no longer Catholic, are destined for hell because they left the Catholic Church?

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with Takers’ comments and would extend that logic to include even converts to the Church (and only partially because I was one myself ). If someone joins the Catholic Church, it is obvious that at the time of their reception they must truly believe in it to the extent that they understand it. So if someone who once believed eventually comes to disbelieve, how can it guarantee them a place in hell when those outside the Roman communion (Orthodox, Protestants, various non-Christian groups) are not similarly condemned for not being in that communion? It is because the convert once believed and no longer does, right? So, as I’ve said in another post much earlier in this thread, it seems like the Church is saying, in effect, that is better to have never been Catholic than to have once been Catholic. In plain language, this is ridiculous. I know from conversations with former Catholics and once-potential Catholics on this board who have since become Orthodox Christians that the Catholic Church can be credited for imbuing in otherwise ignorant people a sense of the difference between Apostolic Christianity and Protestantism. Even better than that, I know that is true because it has done so in my case, as well. I bear absolutely no ill will towards the Catholic Church or anyone in it, but I must be honest and say that I do not believe that, as a communion, it has preserved the Apostolic faith. So why does the Church apparently tell me that I cannot leave without going to hell when it took actually being a believing Catholic to reach this point? I cannot join a communion that the Catholic Church itself says is legitimately apostolic and maintains fully valid sacraments just because it is not in union with the Pope? I will definitely go to hell, but a “born Orthodox” will not? I will go to hell, but a “born Anglican” (born Muslim/born Hindu/born Buddhist/etc) will not? If that is the case, not only am I not ever coming back, I ought to have never joined the CC in the first place. This position is absolutely ridiculous.

Court the born-Muslims, court the born-Protestants, court the born-Orthodox, court the born-Jews, the born-Hindus, the born-Atheists, but to the once-Catholics – let them be anathema!

 

[fkjuliano]

Just in case, no one in this thread has said this yet, I will say it. The Catholic Church was given the charism of determining who will go to Heaven and who will not. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then you must accept that as a fact, as the following passage makes clear:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]

As you can see, Our Lord and Savior chose Peter as the foundation of His Church and gave him the keys to Heaven. Those who are not born within the Faith may be saved because they suffered under invincible ignorance, but it is only common sense that as an apostate you are putting your soul (whether or not believe you have one) in mortal danger.

If you have rejected the Church, you probably do not even care what Her teachings are in this matter, and you are here just to entice the faithful into an argument about how “mean” and “narrow-minded” the Church is, but I have an obligation to give as clear a warning as I can. Do with that warning as you will.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Even better than that, I know that is true because it has done so in my case, as well. I bear absolutely no ill will towards the Catholic Church or anyone in it, but I must be honest and say that I do not believe that, as a communion, it has preserved the Apostolic faith. So why does the Church apparently tell me that I cannot leave without going to hell when it took actually being a believing Catholic to reach this point?

We have discussed the quote you are referring to. Though I do not see it pertaining to you (in fact the poster who originally posted the quote understood what I was saying) you are convinced that it is referring to you. So be it, I will not be able to convince you otherwise.

With that said (and granted) lets discuss, however, why what you think a Church (which you say no longer possess the Apostolic Faith) may say (or may not say in my opinion) about you?

I do not find myself overly concerned with what Mormons say about my faith. What Hindus, or Buddhists, or Atheists say about my faith. I left agnosticism and relativism and don’t for a second concern myself with what those of that persuasion think of my conversion. I simply don’t care I am secure in my belief of my Lord.

So why are you so concerned about what a Church, which you do not see as valid, says about you? If you believe you are secured in your faith in Christ, why so unsettled about what you believe a different Church says about it?

God bless

 

[fkjuliano]

I agree with Takers’ comments and would extend that logic to include even converts to the Church (and only partially because I was one myself ). If someone joins the Catholic Church, it is obvious that at the time of their reception they must truly believe in it to the extent that they understand it. So if someone who once believed eventually comes to disbelieve, how can it guarantee them a place in hell when those outside the Roman communion (Orthodox, Protestants, various non-Christian groups) are not similarly condemned for not being in that communion? It is because the convert once believed and no longer does, right? So, as I’ve said in another post much earlier in this thread, it seems like the Church is saying, in effect, that is better to have never been Catholic than to have once been Catholic. In plain language, this is ridiculous. I know from conversations with former Catholics and once-potential Catholics on this board who have since become Orthodox Christians that the Catholic Church can be credited for imbuing in otherwise ignorant people a sense of the difference between Apostolic Christianity and Protestantism. Even better than that, I know that is true because it has done so in my case, as well. I bear absolutely no ill will towards the Catholic Church or anyone in it, but I must be honest and say that I do not believe that, as a communion, it has preserved the Apostolic faith. So why does the Church apparently tell me that I cannot leave without going to hell when it took actually being a believing Catholic to reach this point? I cannot join a communion that the Catholic Church itself says is legitimately apostolic and maintains fully valid sacraments just because it is not in union with the Pope? I will definitely go to hell, but a “born Orthodox” will not? I will go to hell, but a “born Anglican” (born Muslim/born Hindu/born Buddhist/etc) will not? If that is the case, not only am I not ever coming back, I ought to have never joined the CC in the first place. This position is absolutely ridiculous.

Court the born-Muslims, court the born-Protestants, court the born-Orthodox, court the born-Jews, the born-Hindus, the born-Atheists, but to the once-Catholics – let them be anathema!

Jesus Christ wanted for there to be one just one Christian Church, the one He built on the rock that was Saint Peter, and which today is headed by Peter’s rightful successor, Pope Benedict XVI. If knowing that you choose to join any schismatic or heretical church (read Orthodox and Protestant), you will be deliberately cleaving the Body of Christ in full conscience of your action. You will be rejecting His expressed will, which is tantamount to a direct rejection of Him. That precludes your soul going to Him upon Heaven, which leaves only one other place for you to go.

As to those born to other faiths, they may be suffering under invincible ignorance, which means that they never rejected Christ because they never actually had the chance to accept Him, at least not in full, so it may very well be the case that they will be saved.

 

[dzheremi]

Re: post #189

Here is the problem with the view expressed in that post, fkjuliano:

For a Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for another that the Catholic Church says is validly apostolic and maintains valid and effective sacraments, why should it be that they are condemned to hell simply for having once been in communion with Rome? It is not my fault that the Catholic Church remains out of communion with the Orthodox churches, or for that matter that the Orthodox churches remain out of communion with the Catholic Church. I and everyone else here was born into a world of schism. At one point I made a choice to join the Catholic Church. Honestly, I can say if I was “invincibly ignorant” of anything, it would be the Orthodox faith. Since resolving to learn more about it, I have come to the realization that I probably find myself currently on the wrong side of the schism of 1054. Others looking for the true faith have come to the Orthodox Church (or to a church in the Roman communion) after careful deliberation between the claims of the CC and the OC. Others have merely taken one extra step along the way. Who can say that they’re “invincibly ignorant”?

It just seems unwise to me to say on one hand “yes, the Orthodox Church is valid” and on the other hand tell Catholics who find themselves more in line with Orthodox theology and practice that they are damned to hell for going there. I am not aware of any unambiguous teaching on this, however, and as CMatt25 observes, it is possible to draw many different conclusions from what is out there.

 

[dzheremi]

With that said (and granted) lets discuss, however, why what you think a Church (which you say no longer possess the Apostolic Faith) may say (or may not say in my opinion) about you?

I do not find myself overly concerned with what Mormons say about my faith. What Hindus, or Buddhists, or Atheists say about my faith. I left agnosticism and relativism and don’t for a second concern myself with what those of that persuasion think of my conversion. I simply don’t care I am secure in my belief of my Lord.

So why are you so concerned about what a Church, which you do not see as valid, says about you? If you believe you are secured in your faith in Christ, why so unsettled about what you believe a different Church says about it?

God bless

A good point, and one I’ve made myself before (I think in this very thread, if I remember correctly). I am not sure “unsettled” is exactly the word I would use in this case, though before my current religious affiliation you can see in my profile, I did have “unsettled” in that field. Not sure if I’ve moved on from that really, just found a different way to look at this same struggle.

Anyway, why do I keep asking or posting about this? Probably for similar reasons that you might still post about churches or belief systems that are not Catholic. You don’t cease interacting with people of different beliefs just because you’ve decided to believe in something. We still have a lot to discuss and teach each other, and I personally now realize that I have a lot more to learn now that I am very uncertain of where I should be than I probably would’ve bothered learning when I was certain that Catholic Church was everything it said it was. When you’re convinced that you’re in the right, who cares what those heretics think, right?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Anyway, why do I keep asking or posting about this? Probably for similar reasons that you might still post about churches or belief systems that are not Catholic. You don’t cease interacting with people of different beliefs just because you’ve decided to believe in something.

A difference though, is I correct (or attempt to) misunderstandings of Catholicism and look to learn more about other certain Christian denominations. I would not however call the Mormon belief (or any other church’s belief) that I am not saved (if they in fact would be believe that) “ridiculous” or anything else. I simply wouldn’t care. So why do you? If you do not believe that the Catholic Church is valid why do you care what an invalid Church has to say?

If I left Church A for Church B because I saw Church A as an invalid representation of Christianity, why should I bother with what Church A says? Sure I can learn and have discussions about it but why ultimately would I care if I found some of their positions “ridiculous”?

Is there, perhaps, something, somewhere inside of you, that still believes the Church is “everything it teaches itself to be”? Perhaps that would explain why you were so adamant that the quote Matt offered was not saying what I said it was? Perhaps you are still Person A? Why else would you care what the Church has to say unless you thought what it said held some… weight

Perhaps?

God bless

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus Christ wanted for there to be one just one Christian Church, the one He built on the rock that was Saint Peter, and which today is headed by Peter’s rightful successor, Pope Benedict XVI. If knowing that you choose to join any schismatic or heretical church (read Orthodox and Protestant), you will be deliberately cleaving the Body of Christ in full conscience of your action. You will be rejecting His expressed will, which is tantamount to a direct rejection of Him.

Oddly enough, this is precisely the sort of argument given to me by two members of a highly unorthodox Protestant sect calling itself “Living Stream Ministries”. They tried to tell me that by rejecting their church (founded in the 1930s or so), I was rejecting Christ’s plea that “all shall be one”. I told them that I don’t think it is appropriate to interpret Christ’s words to mean that we should all belong to their denomination. Likewise, I will say to you that I do not for a second discard Christ’s words and intentions. I simply do not find the Catholic interpretation to be the only reasonable one.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Most Catholics who leave the Catholic Church leave because they have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not the church Christ started as described in the New Testament. They leave because they believe that the Catholic Church teaches doctrines that are not supported by scripture (for example purgatory, indulgences, transubstantiation, perpetual virginity of Mary, assumption of Mary. etc.). Do you honestly believe these sincere followers of Christ, who are no longer Catholic, are destined for hell because they left the Catholic Church?

Or they are like me and leave because they don’t know better. They spend years exploring other Protestant churches only to come back to the Catholic Church and believe all those things listed above are scriptural! I was just thinking today about transubstantiation—I know I spent years in other churches receiving communion and NEVER have I felt the Holy Spirit like I do recieving communion in the Catholic Church. I have seen both sides and I will stick with the Catholic Church thank you very much.

As for a faith only or faith with works (works being done out of love for what God has done and wanting to please him. If the Catholic Church is wrong and only faith is required…what harm does works do if it’s done out of love? Is God going to tell me that it was bad to go to church every Sunday? I think not. But if the Catholic Church is right (and I believe they are) and it’s faith AND works…where does that leave those who only have faith? Think about it…

 

[dzheremi]

A difference though, is I correct (or attempt to) misunderstandings of Catholicism and look to learn more about other certain Christian denominations. I would not however call the Mormon belief (or any other church’s belief) that I am not saved (if they in fact would be believe that) “ridiculous” or anything else.

The belief itself is not ridiculous. The argumentation used to sustain it strikes me as ridiculous when taken in conjunction with other statements regarding the possible fate of other non-Catholic groups. Certainly many other churches also hold that those outside of their communion cannot be guaranteed salvation, but they don’t generally also remain ambiguous nor affirmative as to the effectiveness of other churches’ sacraments. This would create the strange situation that it seems that the CC has painted itself into (at least if I were to believe its most strident defenders in this thread), wherein the Catholic Church is the ONLY legitimate Church on earth, but there are also others that have legitimate sacraments and valid apostolic succession, and if you belong to those after having once been in communion with Rome you are going to hell despite their apostolic faith and valid sacraments.

I simply wouldn’t care. So why do you? If you do not believe that the Catholic Church is valid why do you care what an invalid Church has to say?

I have had a variation of this discussion privately with a few other members of CAF. I recognize that ultimately if I am to progress beyond the sort of spiritual limbo I am in now I will need to remove myself completely from these sorts of discussions. In the meantime, I am still trying to work out where I am meant to be. As it says in my profile, “struggling with God”. In practical terms, this often means struggling in discussions like these with people who are well-meaning, honest, and forthright, such as yourself.

If I left Church A for Church B because I saw Church A as an invalid representation of Christianity, why should I bother with what Church A says? Sure I can learn and have discussions about it but why ultimately would I care if I found some of their positions “ridiculous”?

Again, ultimately I don’t.

Is there, perhaps, something, somewhere inside of you, that still believes the Church is “everything it teaches itself to be”? Perhaps that would explain why you were so adamant that the quote Matt offered was not saying what I said it was? Perhaps you are still Person A? Why else would you care what the Church has to say unless you thought what it said held some… weight

Not really, but that doesn’t mean I don’t still care about what I see as internally inconsistent ideas put forth as sound theological positions. You may or may not remember but my primary point of contention regarding your reading of the quote in question is not that there is no such distinction to be made (Matt eventually came around to see it, then explained it to me), but that there is no useful reason to make such a distinction. I don’t think I’m speaking out of turn if I also bring up the fact that Matt also said that he doesn’t much see the point of that distinction, either. It is a strange one to make, as it seems to exist for rhetorical purposes more so than in reality.

 

[josie_L]

Bullheaded triumphalism will turn more people away than appeals to fire and brimstone will retain.

The Church’s position, re: leaving when you know that the Church is “true”, makes absolutely no sense.

There are those who could leave (and have left) the Church due to selfish/practical reasons and still believe/d the CC is the Church Christ founded.

Edit: I think to be “invincibly ignorant” one has to question whether personal gain/ motivations are propelling one to leave the CC.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The belief itself is not ridiculous. The argumentation used to sustain it strikes me as ridiculous when taken in conjunction with other statements regarding the possible fate of other non-Catholic groups. Certainly many other churches also hold that those outside of their communion cannot be guaranteed salvation, but they don’t generally also remain ambiguous nor affirmative as to the effectiveness of other churches’ sacraments. This would create the strange situation that it seems that the CC has painted itself into (at least if I were to believe its most strident defenders in this thread), wherein the Catholic Church is the ONLY legitimate Church on earth, but there are also others that have legitimate sacraments and valid apostolic succession, and if you belong to those after having once been in communion with Rome you are going to hell despite their apostolic faith and valid sacraments.

IDK dz you seemed, to me, to take it rather personal. If you go back and read your posts. I think it is more than the argumentation that concerned you. But oh well I must have been wrong:shrug:

You may or may not remember but my primary point of contention regarding your reading of the quote in question is not that there is no such distinction to be made (Matt eventually came around to see it, then explained it to me), but that there is no useful reason to make such a distinction.

Actually it wasn’t my reading of the quote, it was the quote itself. It was you who had to read into the quote to make it fit your interpretation (that it meant others than what it had said). Whether or not you believe the distinction is useful or not, the distinction was made nonetheless. But as I already granted that I wasn’t going to be able to convince you that the quote was not saying what you wanted to I do not wish to continue that dialogue.

God bless