Golden Plates

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alterserver_07

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I would like mormons to answer this one, like I said, I don’t get missionaries at home to answer these questions. Were are the golden plates that JS translated the book of moromon? And did anybody but him see it? If no one did see it, then how can you beileve the story?
 
C’mon, Victor, you can’t really expect Catholics to stay out of this one, can you? The answer is obvious if you know the truth about Mormonism.

JU
 
Well, if our LDS debaters have chosen to not answer, you know they can’t give a believable answer. :tiphat:
 
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Jerusha:
Well, if our LDS debaters have chosen to not answer, you know they can’t give a believable answer. :tiphat:
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True that.🙂
 
Instead of dancing around, I am going straight to the juggular. I am kinda tired of these answers that really don’t answer your question.
 
I’m not an LDS, but I think I can answer pretty well for what they would say.
  1. The plates were taken up into Heaven after they were translated. Some say by God, others say by the Angel Moroni.
  2. Yes, there were others who saw the plates. There are the 3 witnesses plus the 8 (or 11…can’t remember) witnesses. Some LDS will say that they literally saw them, others will say that they saw them “spiritually”.
  3. They believe it because they receive a “testimony” from the Holy Spirit (often called a burning or the bossum). This “testimony” means that it really is irrelevant whether anyone else saw it or not. They believe completely that Joseph Smith was who he said he was - a prophet of God - and that he restored the fullness of the Gospel.
BTW, I think it a little harsh to start judging the LDS here just because they didn’t respond right away.
 
I was slow to respond because I’ve been out of town.

RE: Some LDS will say that they literally saw them, others will say that they saw them “spiritually”.

Not true, the witnesses testified that they literally saw the gold plates.

Here’s a quote from Martin Harris, one of the three witnesses:

When asked, “Are you sure you saw the angel and the records of the Book of Mormon in the form of gold plates?” Martin Harris replied, “Gentlemen,” and he held out his right hand, “do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Or are your eyes playing you a trick or something? No. Well as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates. Brethren, I know I saw and heard these things, and the Lord knows I know these things of which I have spoken are true” (Deseret News, 2 October 1943, 6).

The eight witnesses also testified that they physically saw the plates, handled the plates and turned the pages.

BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Two other interesting witnesses were women: Marry Whitmer and Emma Smith.

So you have at least 13 people that physically saw the plates, not one of which ever recanted their testimony. Some had disagreements with Joseph Smith over church policy and later left the church, but amazingly all continued to testify that the plates were real and the Book of Mormon what exactly what it purported to be.
 
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Casen:
IRE: Some LDS will say that they literally saw them, others will say that they saw them “spiritually”.

Not true, the witnesses testified that they literally saw the gold plates.
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Actually, what I said was quite true. I was making no statement about how the witnesses claim they saw the plates, whether literally or spiritually. I was making the claim that there are current LDS that hold the view that the witnesses saw the plates literally, and there are also current LDS who hold the belief that the witnesses. I know this is true because I have talked to LDS who hold the belief that the witnesses saw the plates spiritually.
 
OK, I see your point. If you know some people that are confused about the witnesses testimonies I can’t argue with you. I’m sure we could find people confused about any number of historical aspects in either of our religions. But I haven’t encountered this “spiritual” argument myself and don’t believe it’s a common belief of members.

Either way it doesn’t matter much to me since the witnesses of the plates did indeed testify that they physically saw them.
 
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Casen:
OK, I see your point. If you know some people that are confused about the witnesses testimonies I can’t argue with you. I’m sure we could find people confused about any number of historical aspects in either of our religions. But I haven’t encountered this “spiritual” argument myself and don’t believe it’s a common belief of members.

Either way it doesn’t matter much to me since the witnesses of the plates did indeed testify that they physically saw them.
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I don’t think it’s a common belief either. And in fact, I found it rather odd considering what the majority of LDS believe.
 
Golden Plates and the Ten Commandments!

Dont you see the connection?

To me it is a copy and paste and edit of earlier Christianity and Jewish religions.

Everyone agrees with the “10 commandments”. God did not write them on two slabs of stone and the Church broke it down later to number the 10. The protestants number the 10 differently.

real Golden Plates only an imagination.

Moses and the ten Commandents something real that cannot not be explained in simple terms, but a message that will last till the end of time.
 
Just out of curiosity: how many LDS members here have seen these plates? Where are they and how often are they exhibited?
 
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Jerusha:
Come on, you can Google. Anyone can google.

They don’t exist.

bible.ca/mor-inspired-book.htm
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What about the original translation of the Book of Mormon? Surely they keep something that sacred somewhere.

"David Whitmer, one of the 3 witnesses of the B of M, “I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principle scribe, and when it was written down and reappeared to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and nor by any power of man.” Address to All Believers in Christ, David Whitmer, 1887, page 12, reprinted 1960, Pacific Publishing Co., Martinez, CA. "

A seer stone? :confused: :confused: :confused:

How is this not complete superstition?
 
That reminds me, Oliver Cowdery the scribe for most of the book of mormon, wasn’t he excommunicated for saying JS was a false prophit after he walked in on him with another girl besides his wife? I believe so. :hmmm: Kinda makes you wonder, doesn’t it.
 
Casen,

I am sorry you dont get it.

let me try again “they made it all up.”

perhaps through their imagination, they convinced themselves.

As a Christian I understand that Jesus promised that he will always be with His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Therefore whatever went wrong needs to be fixed within the Church not outside of it.

God does not break covenants. Just because we have the new does not mean the old has ended.

Now lets say that there were plates with the Book of Morman wriitten down on them, and these witness’s actually saw them How did they know where they came from? Because they believed in the word of Joseph Smith? And if God restored His Church with the Mormons then why were these plates that not protected by the Holy Spirit from I believe the fire that destroyed them?

Please understand that I am not attacking your beliefs but would trully like an indepth personal answer of the questions I asked.
 
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Reid:
Casen,

I am sorry you dont get it.

let me try again “they made it all up.”

perhaps through their imagination, they convinced themselves.

As a Christian I understand that Jesus promised that he will always be with His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Therefore whatever went wrong needs to be fixed within the Church not outside of it.

God does not break covenants. Just because we have the new does not mean the old has ended.

Now lets say that there were plates with the Book of Morman wriitten down on them, and these witness’s actually saw them How did they know where they came from? Because they believed in the word of Joseph Smith? And if God restored His Church with the Mormons then why were these plates that not protected by the Holy Spirit from I believe the fire that destroyed them?

Please understand that I am not attacking your beliefs but would trully like an indepth personal answer of the questions I asked.
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A fire destroyed them? I thought an angel took them back to heaven.
My point is with the plates is 1. they held very significant statements. Why would God want them back in heaven? 2. the eyewitnesses could not decide if they saw them, if they did not see them, if they were covered at the time they saw them, were uncovered at the time they saw them.
Usually when God leaves something corporal for our own good, He leaves it with us and there is no dispute as to where it is. There might be a dispute as to how it got there, but no dispute as to where it is. For instance- the Shroud of Turin- I’ve seen it. The relics of St. Therese the Little Flower- I’ve seen those. Juan Diego’s tunic- very real and still with us. These types of things are things God gives us for hope- signs not that we ask for but are freely given by God to guide and help. He doesn’t do a magic act with them. He doesn’t show up and say abracadabra presto here’s some plates and then in a cloud of smoke take them back to Heaven leaving everyone fighting over whether they were real or not. What kind of a God does such a thing? One gamey God, bowling for souls.
 
Actually, fire is what destroyed most of the Abraham Papyri that was used in composing the Book of Abraham; not the plates used during the composition of the BoM.

Luckily for everyone but the LDS, enough of those papyrus fragments survived the fire, and were found in some museum’s archives.

Luckily for the LDS, there still is no clear idea where the plates are. I’ve heard that they were taken back to “heaven”, but I also know quite a few local lds who seem to insist that they are in a secret vault in Salt Lake (not that they ever produced any evidence or even clear rationale as to how they got there, or why the other, consequntly false, story of their return to heaven)
 
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