Golden Plates

[Casen]

Reid:

let me try again “they made it all up.”

perhaps through their imagination, they convinced themselves.

Now lets say that there were plates with the Book of Morman wriitten down on them, and these witness’s actually saw them How did they know where they came from? Because they believed in the word of Joseph Smith?

Reid,
So, we’ve got 11 men and two women that testified they saw the plates, all of whom stood by their testimonies throughout their lives, even the ones that had a falling out with Joseph Smith and even though they never made any money off their claims. And your profound explanation is that they just “made it up” or they had vivid imaginations? That’s pretty weak.

If they were part of a fraud, what was the incentive?

Don’t you find it strange that NOT ONE witness ever retracted their testimony, even those that left the church? They got no monetary reward, nothing but ridicule, and yet they repeated their testimonies their entire lives. That many witnesses to anything would be enough to convict in any court… even in the state of California!

Then you suggest that perhaps there were real gold plates but they were a fraud. Wow, 50 lbs of Gold. That’s a pretty expensive fraud.

I can accept that people would find it hard to believe in Joseph Smith’s stories of visions and angels and gold plates buried in a mountain. It’s all pretty incredible. But your explanations are pretty hard to swallow too!

And we’re just talking about the plates themselves. What about the text?

From Terryl Givens:
The naked implausibility of gold plates, seer stones, and warrior-angles finds little by way of scientific corroboration, but attributing to a young farmboy the 90-day dictated and unrevised production of the 500-page narrative that incorporates sophisticated literary structures, remarkable Old World parallels, and some 300 references to chronology and 700 to geography with virtually perfect self-consistency is problematic as well.

 

[Jerusha]

Danites.

Further explanation: People got their throats cut for apostasy, especially if they spoke out.

 

[Casen]

Jerusha:

Danites.

Further explanation: People got their throats cut for apostasy, especially if they spoke out.

So, when David Whitmer was on his death bed and reiterated his testimony of seeing the gold plates one last time before he died he was worried about the Danites slitting his throat?

These explanations just keep getting more bizarre.

 

[Jerusha]

Further explanations-- threats on his family, and we don’t know for sure if he said that.

Not as bizarre as the whole story of the origin of the BOM.

 

[alterserver_07]

Casen:

Reid,
So, we’ve got 11 men and two women that testified they saw the plates, all of whom stood by their testimonies throughout their lives, even the ones that had a falling out with Joseph Smith and even though they never made any money off their claims. And your profound explanation is that they just “made it up” or they had vivid imaginations? That’s pretty weak.

Well, a lot of those 11 people were later excommunicated. I don’t know about you, but those people that were excommunicated, I wouldn’t beleive them, unless you would believe people that are evil enough to get excommunicated. Most of them first said say it physically, but then said they saw it spiritually. It is very hard to beleive, especially when the book counterdicts some of the docterins of the mormon religion, why would God want that, something that counterdicts what JS, the “true” prophit, teaches in his doctrine.

 

[Casen]

Jerusha:

Further explanations-- threats on his family, and we don’t know for sure if he said that.

Not as bizarre as the whole story of the origin of the BOM.

I agree the story of the origin of the BOM is pretty incredible and hard to believe but the explanations others have given regarding it’s origin are pretty incredible too.

Having read the BOM many times myself I’ve just never found it’s equal. And JS was only 20 years old when he published it! I’d be open to discuss any BOM origin theories here but so far I haven’t heard any that are plausible.

Anyway, do you have any evidence to support your Danite theory?

 

[Casen]

alterserver_07:

Well, a lot of those 11 people were later excommunicated. I don’t know about you, but those people that were excommunicated, I wouldn’t beleive them, unless you would believe people that are evil enough to get excommunicated. Most of them first said say it physically, but then said they saw it spiritually. It is very hard to beleive, especially when the book counterdicts some of the docterins of the mormon religion, why would God want that, something that counterdicts what JS, the “true” prophit, teaches in his doctrine.

Victor,
You got your facts wrong again. You said, “*Most of them first said say it physically, but then said they saw it spiritually.” *
This is simply not true.

Also, three of the eleven witnesses were indeed excommunicated, but only over church policy disagreements. That they stayed true to their testimonies of the plates even after excommunication and geographic seperation supports their case in my mind.

Skeptics have discounted the “Testimony of Three Witnesses” on the ground of collusion or deception. Yet each of the three was a respected and independent member of non-Mormon society, active in his community. Their lives, fully documented, clearly demonstrate their honesty and intelligence. David Whitmer repeatedly reacted against charges of possible “delusion.” To one skeptic, he responded: “Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view…but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time” (Anderson, p. 87). Perhaps their later alienation makes them even more credible as witnesses, for no collusion could have withstood their years of separation from the Church and from each other.
Book of Mormon Witnesses by Richard Lloyd Aanderson

 

[crusader4life]

I got a question for you Casen, since you have read the BOM. I want to make one thing clear, you guys teach that you can become a god later in life and that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate gods, right? Well in your “great” BOM, it says many times that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one like in the testimony of the golden plates for one example. That’s a contradiction in your own “great” book and doctrine. Kinda funny huh.

 

[Paul_G]

Casen:

These explanations just keep getting more bizarre.

But this is understandable, because of our openness, it leaves us wide open for those whose profession or hobby it is, generally speaking, to rile against the restored Gospel, to use as a pretext any sectarian developed theory, flight of fancy or imagination to make their point.

It has been my experience (not necessarily on this board) that some continue in that fashion through innocent ignorance, others knowingly purpose to relate falsehood by innuendo. Others outright lie, believing the ends justify the means.

I think our Catholic friends would agree that there are those of the protestant sects that use exactly the same techniques to ridicule the validity of their origins, faith and practices.

Paul

 

[alterserver_07]

crusader4life:

I got a question for you Casen, since you have read the BOM. I want to make one thing clear, you guys teach that you can become a god later in life and that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate gods, right? Well in your “great” BOM, it says many times that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one like in the testimony of the golden plates for one example. That’s a contradiction in your own “great” book and doctrine. Kinda funny huh.

This is my question, not crusader4life’s. She is my sister and we use the same computer and I forgot to log out of her name. So it is mine.

 

[stillsearching]

Casen:

I agree the story of the origin of the BOM is pretty incredible and hard to believe but the explanations others have given regarding it’s origin are pretty incredible too.

Having read the BOM many times myself I’ve just never found it’s equal. And JS was only 20 years old when he published it! I’d be open to discuss any BOM origin theories here but so far I haven’t heard any that are plausible.

Anyway, do you have any evidence to support your Danite theory?

Casen, surely the Mormons like yourself who have read the Book of Mormon so many times can come up with supporting arguments for your faith other than the ones you’ve got. What I notice Nosser, Colbert and yourself doing is just simply denying the validity of any complaint and then going off on some lame statement about how the RCC does the same thing or the Protestants claim the Church does such and so.
First, let’s propose that Mormons like everyone else, do not believe that two wrongs make a right. Can we agree on that? So without regard to what evil thing the church did, or the Protestants did, it does not help the LDS in their cause by trying to draw a similarity. Ridiculously childish.
Secondly, maybe we could agree that Catholics claim their God the Father has never, never been composed of finite matter. When He took physical form, it was as the incarnate Christ. But at no time has the Catholic Church put forth that God the Father had a material physical presence.
The Mormon God, on the other hand, has had a physical and material finite presence early on.
This being the case, we can clearly see that it is not the same God therefore it is quite reasonable that the RCC would reject the LDS claims of baptising in the name of the same Trinity as the RCC Trinity.
Does this make a difference? Probably not to the LDS, but to the Catholics it is an irreconcilable difference.

Now since the Catholic God the Father has never had physical material matter as his composition, one could reasonably see how a Catholic might accuse someone of having schizophrenic hallucinations if he suddenly claimed to have seen God the Father as a person. For a Catholic, that could never happen. Only could a Catholic view Jesus Christ the Son the Incarnation and only once in two thousand years has that been approved and that was St. Margaret Mary Alcoque.
And yet, Joseph Smith has claimed to have seen both as physically present persons. Catholics have no choice but to see this as an extremely psychotic event. Not because we want to be mean to Mormons, not because we are bigoted, not because we think all mormons are bad people, but because we believe as the Scripture says: God is Spirit. Because when JS saw this and the LDS supported it, they presented a God who was unequivocably diametrically in opposition to the Catholic God. So it is equally clear that it is ridiculous for LDS to become sarcastic, contemptuous, insulting and angry when Smith’s “visions” are soundly rejected by Catholics.
We hold that God is love. Love is a spiritual property, not physical matter. Love, properly, cannot be seen or touched. Acts of love, signs of love, sounds of love, words of love, can be seen and touched, but love itself cannot be seen. Just as God cannot be seen. Gods works can be seen and heard.

 

[Casen]

crusader4life:

I got a question for you Casen, since you have read the BOM. I want to make one thing clear, you guys teach that you can become a god later in life and that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate gods, right? Well in your “great” BOM, it says many times that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one like in the testimony of the golden plates for one example. That’s a contradiction in your own “great” book and doctrine. Kinda funny huh.

Victor,
There is no doctrinal contradiction between the Book of Mormon and our other standard works (Bible, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) regarding the godhead. We’ve actually discussed the whole topic at length in the past but if you’d like we can rehash it again, perhaps in another thread.

 

[Casen]

stillsearching:

Casen, surely the Mormons like yourself who have read the Book of Mormon so many times can come up with supporting arguments for your faith other than the ones you’ve got. What I notice Nosser, Colbert and yourself doing is just simply denying the validity of any complaint and then going off on some lame statement about how the RCC does the same thing or the Protestants claim the Church does such and so.

Stillsearching,
As I’ve stated before, my purpose here isn’t to convert people. I’m hear to answer questions about my faith and correct false statements about it and also to have a little fun in friendly debate.

Regarding your statement that I’ve made a “lame statement about how the RCC does the same thing” I’m not sure what specifically you’re refering to. Perhaps you can specify and I can address the criticism directly.

 

[Jerusha]

As I’ve stated before, my purpose here isn’t to convert people.

He does seem to be sincere about this.

“lame statement about how the RCC does the same thing” I’m not sure what specifically you’re refering to. Perhaps you can specify and I can address the criticism directly.

I don’t think he is as guilty on this point as someone else. Go easy on the guy, people. Although some LDS are extremely ready to criticize others for their own faults, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to fall into that same trap.

 

[alterserver_07]

Jerusha:

He does seem to be sincere about this.

I don’t think he is as guilty on this point as someone else. Go easy on the guy, people. Although some LDS are extremely ready to criticize others for their own faults, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to fall into that same trap.

OOO, Burn!!

 

[papist1]

some years ago someone made a discovery of the plates and the official Mormon apostles and prophet declared them as true. It was then revealed that they were made by a man a few months before and he buried them puposely recording the whole situation to prove the Mormons to be false prophet and apostles.

They fell for it.

 

[Jerusha]

Kinderhook, anyone??

 

[papist1]

some years ago someone made a discovery of the plates and the official moron apostles and prophet declared them as true. It was then revealed that they were made by a man a few months before and he buried them puposely recording the whole situation to prove the morons to be false prophet and apostles.

They fell for it.

And of course as the devil does, they lied their way out of it with their little demon followers, and most of the little demon followers just listened to the false prophet and stayed with the church.

Just another example of the brain washing occult that the morons encompass.

---

 

[Casen]

Do we have to go over the Kinderhook hoax again? The has been debunked over and over again but never seems to die.

It’s funny, you have all these people (LDS and non-LDS) that said Joseph Smith never translated them or even showed much interest in them and on the other hand you have ONE SINGLE ACCOUNT that says he performed a partial translation, who’s account is full of discrepancies compared to all the other witnesses.

So, which account do our detractors CHOOSE to accept??? All the witnesses both LDS and non-LDS that say Joseph Smith never “translated” the Kinderhook plates? NOPE! They side with the one solitary person that claims a partial translation but can not be corroberated by any others. Hmmmm, I wonder why they would choose to side with the single account that makes Joseph look bad?

 

[alterserver_07]

Only one account??? That is funny. There are so many accounts that make JS look bad it isn’t even funny. Man, one account. HA!