Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

[iloveangels]

I don’t think that they are recent inventions. Monasteries in the middles ages served the poor; that’s the equivalent of a food kitchen.

But fine, if we shut down all our food kitchens, schools, hospitals, free clinics, adoption agencies, homeless shelters, counseling centers, does such a retreat into Catholic isolationism help or hurt society?

I suspect the government would like it if we did shut down everything and hand it all over to them. But that wasn’t Christ’s command.

Monasteries didn’t open soup kitchens in the Middle Ages. That’s a historical fallacy.

Concentrating on what our real mission is–getting people to heaven–does not hurt society. Spending all of our time being just another social service agency is counterproductive and it’s not our mission. We’ve been sidetracked and it’s time to let go of this stuff now.

If the people don’t like how we do the social service thing, and they clearly don’t, then we should let the government do it.

 

[meltzerboy]

Monasteries didn’t open soup kitchens in the Middle Ages. That’s a historical fallacy.

Concentrating on what our real mission is–getting people to heaven–does not hurt society. Spending all of our time being just another social service agency is counterproductive and it’s not our mission. We’ve been sidetracked and it’s time to let go of this stuff now.

If the people don’t like how we do the social service thing, and they clearly don’t, then we should let the government do it.

I thought the Catholic mission is alleviating pain and suffering in the world in addition to “getting people to heaven.”

 

[iloveangels]

I thought the Catholic mission is alleviating pain and suffering in the world in addition to “getting people to heaven.”

If you mean being just another social service agency, no. That’s not part of our religion.

ALL of the things we do are supposed to be oriented towards getting people to heaven, even the works of charity. That’s the point.

 

[JimG]

Monasteries didn’t open soup kitchens in the Middle Ages. That’s a historical fallacy.

Concentrating on what our real mission is–getting people to heaven–does not hurt society. Spending all of our time being just another social service agency is counterproductive and it’s not our mission. We’ve been sidetracked and it’s time to let go of this stuff now.

If the people don’t like how we do the social service thing, and they clearly don’t, then we should let the government do it.

That’s an interesting perspective; it would be a quite different Church, more like the Amish. Some orders of nuns and brothers are devoted solely to service of the poor. They would have to dissolve. Catholic hospitals would have to shut down, along with a lot of other institutions. I just don’t think it will happen. It will be more likely that Catholic bishops will refuse to give up their social services and refuse to pay the fine, so the government might bankrupt them anyway. And the government will do a poor job of replacing them. I’d rather see the government get out of the business.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s an interesting perspective; it would be a quite different Church, more like the Amish. Some orders of nuns and brothers are devoted solely to service of the poor. They would have to dissolve.

But they’re NOT devoted solely to the service of the poor. Otherwise they’d only be a social service agency. They’re devoted to God. (I hope!)

Catholic hospitals would have to shut down, along with a lot of other institutions. I just don’t think it will happen.

Actually “Catholic hospitals” are usually run by lay boards which have little or nothing to do with the dioceses, and most of them will probably go secular soon anyway because of Obamacare. But they were on their way there anyway. It was always just a matter of time.

It will be more likely that Catholic bishops will refuse to give up their social services and refuse to pay the fine, so the government might bankrupt them anyway.

If they do, they’re in for a big surprise. It’s not going to work that way. Stuff will be confiscated and that will shut it down. About one round of that, and they’ll see nothing is served by doing this.

And the government will do a poor job of replacing them. I’d rather see the government get out of the business.

This is also not going to happen for a whole bunch of reasons. This is how some political parties get their vote margins. There’s a lot of power wrapped up in this. The government is not going to give this up.

 

[JimG]

Well, consider a community such as the Carmelite Sisters for the Aged and Infirm. They lead lives of prayer, but their mission is to serve the aged. Of course, their service originates from and is imbued by, their Catholicism. They are not just a social service agency. But a significant part of their mission involves service to others, and not necessarily Catholics.

There are Carmelites, of course, who spend their entire community life in cloister and prayer. They pray for all of us, and that’s a necessary mission too. And the government would, hopefully, have no problem with them.

I suppose that most Catholic institutions would have to secularize or ‘spiritualize,’ becoming either wholly secular by caving in to the HHS and actively rejecting their Catholicism, or becoming isolated institutions serving, hiring, helping, only Catholics.

That seems sad and unnecessary to me, and all because the HHS takes it upon itself to define “religion.”

 

[iloveangels]

Well, consider a community such as the Carmelite Sisters for the Aged and Infirm. They lead lives of prayer, but their mission is to serve the aged.

No, their mission is to get to heaven. Their apostolate is to serve the aged. Apostolates can be adjusted to serve the mission.

There are Carmelites, of course, who spend their entire community life in cloister and prayer. They pray for all of us, and that’s a necessary mission too. And the government would, hopefully, have no problem with them.

Correct.

I suppose that most Catholic institutions would have to secularize or ‘spiritualize,’ becoming either wholly secular by caving in to the HHS and actively rejecting their Catholicism, or becoming isolated institutions serving, hiring, helping, only Catholics.

That seems sad and unnecessary to me, and all because the HHS takes it upon itself to define “religion.”

Yes, but what has happened, has happened. And all the wishing in the world doesn’t change that.

But it does have a good side, BTW, as most things do. It’s going to make us focus better and do some real thinking about what we’re trying to do. That was almost completely missing before. WE have an enormous case of “pointless sprawl.” We’re not even serving Catholics adequately as a religious entity anymore. 80% of Catholics don’t even bother showing up for weekly mass, and that’s completely disregarded for all the other things we are all wrapped up in. Which is a violation of the Gospel as well, and probably a much bigger one than fighting a turf war over social services. That’s misplaced priorities.

What’s really sad is that it got so bad in public that non-Catholics had to point it out to us. The hypocrisy levels are stunning. This is why we’re such an easy target.

 

[JimG]

Well, the pope said that we are going to be a smaller Church, I believe. I think it will be a result of active persecution.

I just don’t think that the government has the right to demand that any religion cease its service to the poor.

Some bishops have said that they will engage in civil disobedience.
catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=25613

But yes, there will be a good side. The fall of Roman civilization led to the Church rebuilding civilization from scratch. The fall of American civilization will no doubt lead to the Church rebuilding civilization from scratch once again.

 

[iloveangels]

Well, the pope said that we are going to be a smaller Church, I believe. I think it will be a result of active persecution.

We are already a smaller church. As I said before, 80% of Catholics don’t show up for weekly mass. People are not having their children baptized, you know. Nobody really points that out, but it’s not happening very often compared to the past, if you notice your own parish.

AKA active participation: I think that’s your catholic persecution paradigm talking. Catholics have a magic button or something, I think, and I"m not sure it means anything at all.

I just don’t think that the government has the right to demand that any religion cease its service to the poor.

They didn’t directly demand it. They’re trying to do something else, like build political hegemony because they think they can. That’s their intention, I believe. We’re in a period of great social change, and parties are reformulating their basic messages. This is happening all over the Western world. It’s going to be going on for a while.

Some bishops have said that they will engage in civil disobedience.
catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=25613

I read the article. It may not mean what you think it means. He said he wouldn’t comply. He didn’t say how he wouldn’t comply. Don’t expect to see bishops out marching or anything like that because that’s not going to happen on any meaningful scale. Also don’t expect them to stonewall the IRS for more than one round. The IRS will confiscate things and I’m sure the diocesan business lawyers know that.

It’s much more likely that it will look more like this:

1. closing some things and limiting some things; getting out of some businesses.
2. rolling back full time employees to part time.
3. demanding that hospitals and other organizations that are already run by lay boards and are secular, but only nominally Catholic for historical reasons, stop using us for advertisement or declare themselves secular. I expect that a lot of this is going to occur.

But yes, there will be a good side. The fall of Roman civilization led to the Church rebuilding civilization from scratch. The fall of American civilization will no doubt lead to the Church rebuilding civilization from scratch once again.

American civilization will eventually fall only because eventually all civilizations fall. That’s how the world works. It may or may not be linked to this event. Only the historians will know that in retrospect.

 

[iloveangels]

Jim, you’re going to see a lot of things like this Gonzaga business. Most of the big Catholic colleges will follow suit. And the bishops of the dioceses may or may not seek to unlink from them. But in the long run, it won’t matter much if they do or not. It’s only a matter of time before they unlink themselves anyway. They make their money thru federal grants, federal subsidies, financial aid etc. Same with the big hospital conglomerates who get much of their $$$ from insurance companies, federal grants, Medicare/Medicaid etc. and whose rules are set by those agencies.

They’re all run by lay boards, members of which may or may not be Catholic. They’re big businesses now. Religious who founded them don’t work there anymore. The money is retirement income for them, because they’re aged. The average age of sisters in the US is now 76, you must realize.

It’s over. We’re in a new era of Catholic history here now, and it’s going to be different from the past.

 

[JimG]

Jim, you’re going to see a lot of things like this Gonzaga business. Most of the big Catholic colleges will follow suit. And the bishops of the dioceses may or may not seek to unlink from them. But in the long run, it won’t matter much if they do or not. It’s only a matter of time before they unlink themselves anyway. They make their money thru federal grants, federal subsidies, financial aid etc. Same with the big hospital conglomerates who get much of their $$$ from insurance companies, federal grants, Medicare/Medicaid etc. and whose rules are set by those agencies.

They’re all run by lay boards, members of which may or may not be Catholic. They’re big businesses now. Religious who founded them don’t work there anymore. The money is retirement income for them, because they’re aged. The average age of sisters in the US is now 76, you must realize.

It’s over. We’re in a new era of Catholic history here now, and it’s going to be different from the past.

You may be right. A lot of Catholic institutions “unlinking” from Catholicism. The tragedy is not so much that they disengage from identifying as a Catholic institution, but that they simultaneously embrace immoral principles forced upon them by the HHS. There are some private employers who will not do that, who will close up shop or pay fines instead.

 

[iloveangels]

You may be right. A lot of Catholic institutions “unlinking” from Catholicism. The tragedy is not so much that they disengage from identifying as a Catholic institution, but that they simultaneously embrace immoral principles forced upon them by the HHS. There are some private employers who will not do that, who will close up shop or pay fines instead.

The time for mourning that happened long ago. It’s all over except for the drop of the last shoe. We have to go on to the next step of Catholic history which means figuring some new things out.

 

[CMatt25]

Then, as a practicing Catholic, I assume you are on board with the Pope’s newest Motu Proprio,

Who is this addressed to? I will assume Rence.

 

[iloveangels]

Who is this addressed to? I will assume Rence.

Everybody. It’s a MOTU PROPRIO:

blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2012/12/de-caritate-ministranda.html

 

[CMatt25]

I think that when CMatt25 uses the word “charity”, he means it in the way that it is used by the Forum Moderators:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852

I, too, believe that your pejoratives “degenerate” and also “reprobate” fall into the category of “uncharitable”. (Wasn’t Rush Limbaugh castigated by the public for calling Ms. Fluke a “slut”?) Justifying your attack by saying it is a way to “rebuk[e] sinners” is blasphemous. It most certainly is not a “spiritual work of mercy” in the fashion in which you are using it. You have no way of knowing who is, or who is not, a sinner in God’s eyes. God bless.

Correct God bless you too.

 

[iloveangels]

Correct God bless you too.

You don’t like the MOTU PROPRIO?

 

[CMatt25]

I know. That’s the enormous problem with American Catholics. For them, politics = religion and religion = politics. But they’re WRONG.

The Church is bigger than American politics. It existed before American politics. American politics are not what defines it. Far from it.

I can’t speak for American Catholics but there are many issues that are both part of religion and politics. I suppose some people of faith might find it within themselves the ability to separate their faith from what should be the law of the land in a country of plural beliefs. If I remember correctly, JFK addressed something along those lines when he ran for POTUS over half a century ago. But I don’t believe it necessarily means people of faith believe they are equal.

 

[CMatt25]

You don’t like the MOTU PROPRIO?

I have no idea if I like it or not. When you posted, “then, as a practicing Catholic, I assume you are on board with the Pope’s newest Motu Proprio”, I didn’t read it since I’m not Catholic. If I get a chance to go to your link and read it later and it is still being discussed, I’ll have to get back to you on whether I like it or not.

 

[scipio337]

I can’t speak for American Catholics but there are many issues that are both part of religion and politics. I suppose some people of faith might find it within themselves the ability to separate their faith from what should be the law of the land in a country of plural beliefs. If I remember correctly, JFK addressed something along those lines when he ran for POTUS over half a century ago. But I don’t believe it necessarily means people of faith believe they are equal.

You mean, like Joe Biden?

*My religion defines who I am. And I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who — who can’t take care of themselves, people who need help.

With regard to abortion, I accept my church’s position on abortion as a — what we call de fide doctrine. Life begins at conception. That’s the Church’s judgment. I accept it in my personal life.

But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and — I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman*…

The translation here is:

“I can pick and choose which parts of my faith I want to apply to my political life, while claiming it defines who I am”.

I didn’t notice the ACLU screaming that VP Biden was violating the establishment clause by wanting to impose Catholic Social Doctrine on our pluralistic society.

Yet somehow, that’s the case when Catholics just want to protect their own conscience. That to me is very sad.

 

[iloveangels]

I like the Motu Proprio. I think it’s a good thing and I wish we’d gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.