Good book on Mormonism?

[Brennan_Doherty]

I have a friend who has recently written me this:

"I’m wondering if either of you might know of any definitive written resource re: Mormon doctrine. As you may or may not know, my daughter is dating a young man who is Mormon (together for almost 5 months, which, in high school is akin to 25 years). While we care for this boy a great deal, the chasm between their religions is presenting itself and my daughter is increasingly open to and accepting of his explanation of his religion - as skewed and incorrect as I believe some of these explanations have been.

I’m having a very difficult time finding a resource which is not neck-deep in theology and history - one that simply outlines LDS belief systems, where and when they originated and the person of Joseph Smith. I also want to avoid “sour grapes” books, written from the perspective of past members. In short, I’m looking for a straightforward, objective review of the history of this church and the belief structure that defines them.

My husband, daughter, and I have all agreed to read and discuss such a book when we can locate it. Hopefully, in doing so, she can gain clear and unbiased information on the Mormon church and make spiritual decisions with a foundation of knowledge rather than a desire to hold someone near to her whom she is growing to care for more each day and whose family she so wants to accept her.

Any ideas?"

I recommended the book,

“One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church” by Richard Abanes

amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224095956&sr=8-1

However, if anyone has any other recommendations, let me know. My friend is a Christian (she does not go to church anywhere right now), she is not Catholic (though I am not opposed to Catholic sources, of course).

Thanks.

 

[flameburns623]

I have a friend who has recently written me this:

"I’m wondering if either of you might know of any definitive written resource re: Mormon doctrine. As you may or may not know, my daughter is dating a young man who is Mormon (together for almost 5 months, which, in high school is akin to 25 years). While we care for this boy a great deal, the chasm between their religions is presenting itself and my daughter is increasingly open to and accepting of his explanation of his religion - as skewed and incorrect as I believe some of these explanations have been . . . .
. . . . . I recommended the book,

**One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church **by Richard Abanes . . .

. . . .However, if anyone has any other recommendations, let me know . . . .

Thanks.

I do NOT recommend Abanes as a primary resource on Mormon history. He is a profoundly anti-Mormon writer who uses biased sources in a way that I found very unbecoming for a purported Christian scholar. It’s not an awful book but it has problems. For exampleL Joseph Smith was a man of very complex character, one who was both deeply beloved by many who knew him and deeply mistrusted by others who knew him. In recounting Smith’s life, Abanes exclusively relies upon sources which disliked Joseph Smith, leading the incautious reader to wonder how on earth such a self-evident scoundrel could have ever drawn a following at all.

Here is the list I have recommended in the past. Pick and choose as you will:

flameburns623:

By non-LDS:

Mormon America: Power and Promise, Richard K. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, Harper, 1999.

Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992

Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.

Joseph Smith: The Making of A Prophet, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 2004

Two which I recommend only for the evidence which their research uncovered, NOT for the interpretations and ‘spin’ which the Tanners put on that evidence:

The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.

Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.

Several from LDS sources. I advise people NOT to spend too much time only reading anti-LDS stuff–it is difficult to find material which doesn’t include at least some mistakes or which is tainted by the author’s biases against the LDS Church. If you read anti-LDS material–try to read at least two books by Mormons on the same subject for every ONE book by an ‘Anti’–it will help you keep perspective:

The Articles of Faith by James Talmage

Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage

**A Marvelous Work and a Wonder **by LeGrand Richards

The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).

You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple, (alternative title: The Holy Temple), Boyd K. Packer, Bookcraft, 1980

**Church History in the Fulness of Times **distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)

Gospel Principles Church Distribution

An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley

The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts…

Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, Robert L. Bushman, University of Illinois Press, 1984

Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)

**The Work and the Glory **Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history).

Church magazines:

Ensign: Also available for reading on-line at:

lds.org/gospellibrary/pdfmagazine/0,7779,592-6-1,00.html

Meridian Magazine: An on-line magazine and excellent way to stay current on happenings in the LDS Church. NOT an official LDS-sponsored magazine:

meridianmagazine.com/

Videos (for those who prefer to learn by watching and listening rather than by reading–all of these are basically LDS-church sponsored so will be faith-affirming, not controversial or challenging):

The Work and the Glory: Video retelling of Lund’s series of novels.

The Mountain of the Lord: Very enjoyable if rather heavy-handed acount of the building of the SLC temple. Told as if through the eyes of the presiding LDS prophet at the time the temple was completed, Wilford Woodruff.

Come Unto Me: Touches on some central LDS doctrines and themes. Not one video but several, and of varying quality.

How Rare a Possession: On the Book of Mormon. Also a compendium of several short videos.

**Legacy: **At one time, this was shown in LDS Visitor’s Centers and is very well done. Is a ‘composite’ of several people but mainly the life of one early LDS woman.

You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. A local LDS Ward library may also lend you some of them as well. (A ‘Ward’ is roughly equivalent to a Catholic parish). And offer to lend you gobs of others. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you plenty of grasp of basic Mormonism.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I do NOT recommend Abanes as a primary resource on Mormon history. He is a profoundly anti-Mormon writer who uses biased sources in a way that I found very unbecoming for a purported Christian scholar. It’s not an awful book but it has problems. For exampleL Joseph Smith was a man of very complex character, one who was both deeply beloved by many who knew him and deeply mistrusted by others who knew him. In recounting Smith’s life, Abanes exclusively relies upon sources which disliked Joseph Smith, leading the incautious reader to wonder how on earth such a self-evident scoundrel could have ever drawn a following at all.

Here is the list I have recommended in the past. Pick and choose as you will:

Flameburns,

Thanks for the response. Right now I am looking to help my friend find a single good source since I doubt they are going to be able to take the time to read a large number of books on Mormonism (and at the least they have to find one to read together).

I thought Abanes book was excellent. I appreciated the tone of it as well as the extensive documentation. I came across this review on Amazon.com from a man who says he is a Mormon and has read this book:

46 of 58 people found the following review helpful:

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-4-0.V47081936.gif I am a Mormon, and, yes, this book is mostly accurate., February 13, 2005

By Moroni Martenhttp://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/icons/drop-down-icon-small-empty-arrow.V13355991.gif (Utah) - See all my reviews

I have been an active, (temple recommended holding) Mormon for over forty years. I have also studied Mormon history quite extensively. I find this book to be mostly accurate albeit a little subjective and biased at times.

Most Mormons have a very limited understanding of their own church’s history. The LDS church goes to great lengths to suppress any history of their religion that is not “faith promoting” and have even “changed” history to make it less troubling. They discourage members from reading material they deem inappropriate. Because of these policies most church members are taught a very simplified, sanitized and inaccurate version of history. Then when they read a book such as this that exposes some of what really happened, they lash out by exclaiming they are “lies” and “anti-Mormon” propaganda and they give the book a poor rating. If you look at the one star ratings of this book, you will notice that they are almost all by Mormons who feel the history of their church has been wrongly depicted.

One of the other things you will notice from Mormons who are upset about what is written is that they will never say exactly WHAT is inaccurate. They will never be specific. Whenever I ask an active LDS to be specific about the “lies,” they will usually just say “everything.” Others will admit that they never really read the book, but they “heard” it was anti-Mormon propaganda.

This type of angry terse response is understandable, however, considering the indoctrinization that they have gone through. Having a belief system challenged is very unsettling. Many Mormons, however, have learned and accepted some of the “shady” history of the Mormon church and are still active, believing members - with a somewhat different perspective.

As a member of the LDS church who studies history, there is one thing that is very apparent, however. The history depicted by the LDS church has been so sanitized, suppressed, and changed, that is it is about 70% fiction. There is no way to get an accurate historical picture from LDS sources. That is why it is so ridiculous to state that the only accurate information is from the LDS church itself. In truth, that is about as far away as you can get.

On the other hand, “anti-Mormon” sources are very biased as well. So the trick is to find as “neutral and objective” sources as possible. That is why my research usually involves tracking down original documents and sources that have not gone through the “LDS purification” process and to find sources from observers who were neither friend nor foe of the LDS religion.

One Nation Under Gods utilizes sources that, in my estimation, are mostly objective and accurate (yes, there are some that are not). This is much better than what would be obtained from an LDS source. A perfect history is an impossibility. But Abanes does a pretty good job with this book."

amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224095956&sr=8-1

But thanks again for the recommendations, I will definitely keep them in mind.

 

[PaulDupre]

I just finished reading “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins” by Grant H. Palmer. It is very good, but will only make sense to those already familiar with Mormonism and especially the Book of Mormon.

 

[flameburns623]

Flameburns,

Thanks for the response. Right now I am looking to help my friend find a single good source since I doubt they are going to be able to take the time to read a large number of books on Mormonism (and at the least they have to find one to read together).

I thought Abanes book was excellent. I appreciated the tone of it as well as the extensive documentation. I came across this review on Amazon.com from a man who says he is a Mormon and has read this book:

46 of 58 people found the following review helpful:

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-4-0.V47081936.gif I am a Mormon, and, yes, this book is mostly accurate., February 13, 2005

By Moroni Martenhttp://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/icons/drop-down-icon-small-empty-arrow.V13355991.gif (Utah) - See all my reviews

I have been an active, (temple recommended holding) Mormon for over forty years. I have also studied Mormon history quite extensively. I find this book to be mostly accurate albeit a little subjective and biased at times.

Most Mormons have a very limited understanding of their own church’s history. The LDS church goes to great lengths to suppress any history of their religion that is not “faith promoting” and have even “changed” history to make it less troubling. They discourage members from reading material they deem inappropriate. Because of these policies most church members are taught a very simplified, sanitized and inaccurate version of history. Then when they read a book such as this that exposes some of what really happened, they lash out by exclaiming they are “lies” and “anti-Mormon” propaganda and they give the book a poor rating. If you look at the one star ratings of this book, you will notice that they are almost all by Mormons who feel the history of their church has been wrongly depicted.

One of the other things you will notice from Mormons who are upset about what is written is that they will never say exactly WHAT is inaccurate. They will never be specific. Whenever I ask an active LDS to be specific about the “lies,” they will usually just say “everything.” Others will admit that they never really read the book, but they “heard” it was anti-Mormon propaganda.

This type of angry terse response is understandable, however, considering the indoctrination that they have gone through. Having a belief system challenged is very unsettling. Many Mormons, however, have learned and accepted some of the “shady” history of the Mormon church and are still active, believing members - with a somewhat different perspective.

As a member of the LDS church who studies history, there is one thing that is very apparent, however. The history depicted by the LDS church has been so sanitized, suppressed, and changed, that is it is about 70% fiction. There is no way to get an accurate historical picture from LDS sources. That is why it is so ridiculous to state that the only accurate information is from the LDS church itself. In truth, that is about as far away as you can get.

On the other hand, “anti-Mormon” sources are very biased as well. So the trick is to find as “neutral and objective” sources as possible. That is why my research usually involves tracking down original documents and sources that have not gone through the “LDS purification” process and to find sources from observers who were neither friend nor foe of the LDS religion.

One Nation Under Gods utilizes sources that, in my estimation, are mostly objective and accurate (yes, there are some that are not). This is much better than what would be obtained from an LDS source. A perfect history is an impossibility. But Abanes does a pretty good job with this book."

amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224095956&sr=8-1

But thanks again for the recommendations, I will definitely keep them in mind.

I provided a list because any one book that someone might suggest might not be readily available and beause people’s tastes iin reading or study material vary. Vogel’s books would be a good start, though he brings a high measure of skepticism to his subject. Vogel is at least a reasonably astute scholar of his subject. He’s ex-LDS though I think he is now an atheist.

Regardless of what a reader review might say on Amazon–remember people can lie about their credentials on those reader reviews–most scholars would NOT find Abanes to be a very good source for LDS history. Abanes is a committed Evangelical, and most people who look for his books would be conservative Christians. Hence the tendency to find positive reviews ‘helpful’. Abanes is a shabby scholar. He is not respected by his peers in the field as I understand it. You can do what you want–you seem to have decided before you asked for any suggestions–but I simply don’t recommend him.

You seem to want to choose ONLY between books produced by the LDS Church itself OR by anti-Mormons with an explicit axe to grind. There are alternatives. For example there are historians of Mormonism who are faithful LDS but also honest scholars who do not ‘sanitize’ their subjects. I know of a couple but it’s late and I don’t want to spend the time looking these up. You can also find good scholarly histories done by non-Mormons who have at least tried to be fair-minded in sifting their evidence. Don’t be so black-and-white in your thinking.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I provided a list because any one book that someone might suggest might not be readily available and beause people’s tastes iin reading or study material vary. Vogel’s books would be a good start, though he brings a high measure of skepticism to his subject. Vogel is at least a reasonably astute scholar of his subject. He’s ex-LDS though I think he is now an atheist.

Regardless of what a reader review might say on Amazon–remember people can lie about their credentials on those reader reviews–most scholars would NOT find Abanes to be a very good source for LDS history. Abanes is a committed Evangelical, and most people who look for his books would be conservative Christians. Hence the tendency to find positive reviews ‘helpful’. Abanes is a shabby scholar. He is not respected by his peers in the field as I understand it. You can do what you want–you seem to have decided before you asked for any suggestions–but I simply don’t recommend him.

You seem to want to choose ONLY between books produced by the LDS Church itself OR by anti-Mormons with an explicit axe to grind. There are alternatives. For example there are historians of Mormonism who are faithful LDS but also honest scholars who do not ‘sanitize’ their subjects. I know of a couple but it’s late and I don’t want to spend the time looking these up. You can also find good scholarly histories done by non-Mormons who have at least tried to be fair-minded in sifting their evidence. Don’t be so black-and-white in your thinking.

Hi flameburns,

I realize of course someone can lie on an Amazon review. That was not my impression of the reviewer, but I can’t verify his credentials one way or the other.

When you say “most scholars” would not find Abanes to be a very good source which scholars do you mean? How do you know what they think? Have they written reviews where they have said this?

How do you know Abanes is a “shabby” scholar or that he is not respected by his peers in the field?

Abanes book, again, was one of the best, most well documented treatises on Mormonism I’ve ever come across. If the book came across as “anti-Mormon” or as having an “axe to grind” I wouldn’t use it as it would be counterproductive. The fact that he is an evangelical Christian is not in any way a big plus with me; I am a convert to Catholicism and have no desire to lead anyone to the evangelical fold.

I have not made up my mind and am open to other suggestions. Am I biased? Yes. I don’t believe there is a sliver of evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that God intended him to found a church. And I believe there is much evidence against any such idea.

I do recognize however, that Mormon sources are potent. I remember coming across a book written by a Mormon regarding Joseph Smith’s many wives, and that he did not whitewash it. That would be good.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

I have looked at a few of Dan Vogel’s books on Amazon, for instance. The books on Early Mormon Documents look interesting but we are talking about a family reading a single book together and a 708 page book (the first of five volumes) containing source documents does not seem like what they are looking for. Nor does his 700 plus page biography of Joseph Smith which sticks mainly with a detailed history of the Book of Mormon.

Abanes’ book seems much better suited for what they are looking for.

 

[Dirk_Skene]

I read one by a former morman woman. It was called Secret Ceremonies by Deborah Laake. Weired & strange.She goes into the whole temple ceremony stuff & how all morman men think they will be gods, and that our god (little “g” on purpose this time) is not so hot because he only has 1 planet. A good morman will have many planets under his control. Down right silly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Preach My Gospel” is the material that mormon missionaries use. It is big on “milk”, short on “meat”, but it covers basic mormon beliefs.

“Gospel Principles” is the Sunday School manual used for new converts. It goes more into the “meat” of Mormon beliefs.

“Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling”, covers mormon church history and Joseph Smith…the author is LDS.

“No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith” by Fawn Brody, covers the more difficult aspects of Joseph Smith that Mormons are not taught in church. Rough Stone Rolling addresses some these. Mormons will tell you this is an anti-Mormon book, however, Brody backs up everything with documented facts.

“The Wives of Joseph Smith” (online) Joseph Smith practiced polygyny and polyandry. This website offers biographies of 33 of the known plural wives of Joseph Smith.

 

[flameburns623]

Hi flameburns,

I realize of course someone can lie on an Amazon review. That was not my impression of the reviewer, but I can’t verify his credentials one way or the other.

When you say “most scholars” would not find Abanes to be a very good source which scholars do you mean? How do you know what they think? Have they written reviews where they have said this?

How do you know Abanes is a “shabby” scholar or that he is not respected by his peers in the field?

Abanes book, again, was one of the best, most well documented treatises on Mormonism I’ve ever come across. If the book came across as “anti-Mormon” or as having an “axe to grind” I wouldn’t use it as it would be counterproductive. The fact that he is an evangelical Christian is not in any way a big plus with me; I am a convert to Catholicism and have no desire to lead anyone to the evangelical fold.

I have not made up my mind and am open to other suggestions. Am I biased? Yes. I don’t believe there is a sliver of evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that God intended him to found a church. And I believe there is much evidence against any such idea.

I do recognize however, that Mormon sources are potent. I remember coming across a book written by a Mormon regarding Joseph Smith’s many wives, and that he did not whitewash it. That would be good.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

I have looked at a few of Dan Vogel’s books on Amazon, for instance. The books on Early Mormon Documents look interesting but we are talking about a family reading a single book together and a 708 page book (the first of five volumes) containing source documents does not seem like what they are looking for. Nor does his 700 plus page biography of Joseph Smith which sticks mainly with a detailed history of the Book of Mormon.

Abanes’ book seems much better suited for what they are looking for.

I own his book, I’ve read it, the poor scholarship leaped out at me because I recognized the sources he chose to use–and yes, I’ve read scholarly reviews. His book broke absolute no new ground. It basically is a compendium of all of the anti-Mormon interpretations of LDS history that have come along over the past 150 or so years. If you were going to engage in a concerted study of Mormonism, you could not afford to miss Abanes, but since that is not what you are after, I don’t recommend Abanes as an introductory text. Abanes is one of those writers, along with the Tanners, whose writing needs to be counter-balanced by writers from the other side of the fence. What you term the ‘LDS Church sanitized’ perspective.

Since you don’t want to read a whole laundry list of books–Vogel’s stuff is generally fairly short, readable, and brings out a lot of new material and new perspectives. One of the things that would be bound to impress your friends: Vogel does not make Joseph Smith into an entirely wicked, unscrupulous character. Rather, while Vogel believes Smith knew that what he was doing was not objectively true–Smith felt himself justified by circumstances to create a faith-affirming ‘pious fraud’. A fraud which Smith himself probably ultimately came to believe in himself. Hullinger’s book sort of complements that perspective if you can find a copy via inter-library loan (I believe Hullinger’s book is now out of print).

I’m thinking that Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling”, suggested by another poster, is one of the books I was suggesting. It is a moderately critical work by a believing Mormon. The casual Mormon follower might well be shocked by some aspects of Smith as revealed in Bushman, though Bushman intends the thrust of his work to be faith-affirming. Fawn Brodie’s book was ground-breaking in it’s era though it’s scholarship has become dated and in some cases shown to be simply wrong or biased. It’s still not a bad book to read. “Preach My Gospel” would be a great way to introduce your friends to what the Missionaries intend to teach, in a way that prepares them to ask more pointed and critical questions–which the Missionaries probably won’t be able to answer, by the way.

 

[Publisher]

A book I found very infomative is “How Wide the Divide” by Craig Blomberg with Stephen Robinson.

It’s published by Inter Varsity Press. It’s a book of dialog between an Evangelical and a Mormon, exploring Mormon beliefs…it is respectful in tone.

I highly recommend it.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A book I found very infomative is “How Wide the Divide” by Craig Blomberg with Stephen Robinson.

It’s published by Inter Varsity Press. It’s a book of dialog between an Evangelical and a Mormon, exploring Mormon beliefs…it is respectful in tone.

I highly recommend it.

I’ve read Mormon Americaower and Promise It is a non-biased book about Mormonism; a very good introduction to someone who doesn’t know anything about the religion. It’s very journalistic, with no personal opinions in it. I recommend it

 

[flameburns623]

I’ve read Mormon Americaower and Promise It is a non-biased book about Mormonism; a very good introduction to someone who doesn’t know anything about the religion. It’s very journalistic, with no personal opinions in it. I recommend it

Horse-hockey. You cannot write a book, or an article, or anything at all substantive without inserting personal opinions into it. Even the decision to write nothing on a topical subject is to express an opinion–that the subject is beneath your attention.

There is no such thing as a non-biased book.You can at best write a book that is fair and balanced, as FOX News likes to say: fair because you identify your biases up front to the fullest degree relevant and possible within the scope of your efforts; and balanced because you give due weight and respect to evidence that does not confirm your personal thesis or agenda.

That said–it is a book worth reading.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I own his book, I’ve read it, the poor scholarship leaped out at me because I recognized the sources he chose to use–and yes, I’ve read scholarly reviews. His book broke absolute no new ground. It basically is a compendium of all of the anti-Mormon interpretations of LDS history that have come along over the past 150 or so years. If you were going to engage in a concerted study of Mormonism, you could not afford to miss Abanes, but since that is not what you are after, I don’t recommend Abanes as an introductory text. Abanes is one of those writers, along with the Tanners, whose writing needs to be counter-balanced by writers from the other side of the fence. What you term the ‘LDS Church sanitized’ perspective.

Since you don’t want to read a whole laundry list of books–Vogel’s stuff is generally fairly short, readable, and brings out a lot of new material and new perspectives. One of the things that would be bound to impress your friends: Vogel does not make Joseph Smith into an entirely wicked, unscrupulous character. Rather, while Vogel believes Smith knew that what he was doing was not objectively true–Smith felt himself justified by circumstances to create a faith-affirming ‘pious fraud’. A fraud which Smith himself probably ultimately came to believe in himself. Hullinger’s book sort of complements that perspective if you can find a copy via inter-library loan (I believe Hullinger’s book is now out of print).

I’m thinking that Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling”, suggested by another poster, is one of the books I was suggesting. It is a moderately critical work by a believing Mormon. The casual Mormon follower might well be shocked by some aspects of Smith as revealed in Bushman, though Bushman intends the thrust of his work to be faith-affirming. Fawn Brodie’s book was ground-breaking in it’s era though it’s scholarship has become dated and in some cases shown to be simply wrong or biased. It’s still not a bad book to read. “Preach My Gospel” would be a great way to introduce your friends to what the Missionaries intend to teach, in a way that prepares them to ask more pointed and critical questions–which the Missionaries probably won’t be able to answer, by the way.

Hi Flameburn,

I would have a problem with Abanes’ book if he misquoted or incorrectly cited sources, or hardly ever used primary sources. If one wants to consider him a type of “devil’s advocate” regarding Joseph Smith that is fine. My primary concern in that case is his accuracy. Thus if one can show where Abanes was simply wrong I would be concerned with that. That he used sources which do not portray Joseph Smith favorably is really not a big deal to me. The burden of proof is really on the Mormons and Joseph Smith to show why he should be considered a prophet of God.

I don’t disagree with the assessment of Joseph Smith you cite. I have even thought that Joseph Smith would probably have had to convince himself that he was a true prophet or that the means he used to build Mormonism were justified as the incongruity between his public persona and his private knowledge might be too much too bear.

Thanks to everyone and flameburn for the suggestions.

 

[flameburns623]

Hi Flameburn,

I would have a problem with Abanes’ book if he misquoted or incorrectly cited sources, or hardly ever used primary sources. If one wants to consider him a type of “devil’s advocate” regarding Joseph Smith that is fine. My primary concern in that case is his accuracy. Thus if one can show where Abanes was simply wrong I would be concerned with that. That he used sources which do not portray Joseph Smith favorably is really not a big deal to me. The burden of proof is really on the Mormons and Joseph Smith to show why he should be considered a prophet of God.

I don’t disagree with the assessment of Joseph Smith you cite. I have even thought that Joseph Smith would probably have had to convince himself that he was a true prophet or that the means he used to build Mormonism were justified as the incongruity between his public persona and his private knowledge might be too much too bear.

Thanks to everyone and flameburn for the suggestions.

1. Abanes rarely uses primary sources.
2. He uses secondary sources known to be incorrect or which are known to have incorrectly quoted or misused evidence.
3. His book is inaccurate in numberless places.
4. He deliberately and self-consciously discounts any and all evidence that does not conform to his agenda.

It’s just not a book I can recommend, even as an ex-Mormon who is a critic of the LDS Church. You can do as you wish.

 

[nebula]

I have a friend who has recently written me this:

"I’m wondering if either of you might know of any definitive written resource re: Mormon doctrine. As you may or may not know, my daughter is dating a young man who is Mormon (together for almost 5 months, which, in high school is akin to 25 years). While we care for this boy a great deal, the chasm between their religions is presenting itself and my daughter is increasingly open to and accepting of his explanation of his religion - as skewed and incorrect as I believe some of these explanations have been.

I’m having a very difficult time finding a resource which is not neck-deep in theology and history - one that simply outlines LDS belief systems, where and when they originated and the person of Joseph Smith. I also want to avoid “sour grapes” books, written from the perspective of past members. In short, I’m looking for a straightforward, objective review of the history of this church and the belief structure that defines them.

My husband, daughter, and I have all agreed to read and discuss such a book when we can locate it. Hopefully, in doing so, she can gain clear and unbiased information on the Mormon church and make spiritual decisions with a foundation of knowledge rather than a desire to hold someone near to her whom she is growing to care for more each day and whose family she so wants to accept her.

Any ideas?"

I recommended the book,

“One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church” by Richard Abanes

amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224095956&sr=8-1

However, if anyone has any other recommendations, let me know. My friend is a Christian (she does not go to church anywhere right now), she is not Catholic (though I am not opposed to Catholic sources, of course).

Thanks.

Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman is the book I would recommend. He is LDS but also a professional historian. THe book is a biography of Joseph Smith, but in narrating his biography he gets deeply into LDS theology. I would also recommend picking up a Gospel Principles manual published by the LDS church (you can probably get it on lds.org) as a good reference and take some time to look through it. It’s the closest you get to a sort of catechism.

 

[nebula]

Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman is the book I would recommend. He is LDS but also a professional historian. THe book is a biography of Joseph Smith, but in narrating his biography he gets deeply into LDS theology. I would also recommend picking up a Gospel Principles manual published by the LDS church (you can probably get it on lds.org) as a good reference and take some time to look through it. It’s the closest you get to a sort of catechism.

Looks like Rebecca beat me to it , you know what they say about great minds lol.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

1. Abanes rarely uses primary sources.
2. He uses secondary sources known to be incorrect or which are known to have incorrectly quoted or misused evidence.
3. His book is inaccurate in numberless places.
4. He deliberately and self-consciously discounts any and all evidence that does not conform to his agenda.

It’s just not a book I can recommend, even as an ex-Mormon who is a critic of the LDS Church. You can do as you wish.

Do you have any sort of review you can refer me to to back up any of these assertions? Or any specific examples? Unfortunately I have loaned out the book so I don’t have it on me right now. Thanks.

 

[Jerusha]

Send me a private message with your e-mail address and I can send you a copy of the one I am working on. Takes a look at it from a Native Catholic viewpoint.

 

[flameburns623]

Do you have any sort of review you can refer me to to back up any of these assertions? Or any specific examples? Unfortunately I have loaned out the book so I don’t have it on me right now. Thanks.

I picked up on the flawed methodology and skewed sourcs without any reviews. I read those reviews about six months later, when there were a number of them available. At this point there are a couple of good reviews still extant by FAIR-LDS and FARMS but not many others. Would you accept those for what they are (defenses by LDS apologists), or would you dismiss them out of hand?

Abanes has publicly made it clear on several occasisons that HE does not accept as ‘valid’ any critique of his methodology based on what he terms ‘LDS sources’. This suggests that he is determined to push forward his agenda withut being confused by the facts.

BTW–Those same apologetic orgs dislike Dan Vogel’s work. I’m not a professional historian so I can’t always fact-check the reviews against Vogel and verify whose arguments are strongest from primary sources. I can say that FAIR-LDS and FARMS give me the impression that their issues with Vogel are quibbles and peripheral squabbles which do not detract from any major point Vogel raises. With regard to Abanes, their critiques strike me as more substantive.

Incidentally, FAIR-LDS sponsored a webforum similar to this one for several years–and both Abanes and Vogel posted on the forum for awhile. I believe Vogel still pops in periodically; I have never had opportunity to interact with Abanes on the forum and folks indicate it had been awhile since he’d posted. I will PM you the link to the forum if you wish, but be aware it is no longer closely linked to the FAIR-LDS apologetics organization.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Dear Brennan Doherty,

flameburns623 responded to you, “I do NOT recommend Abanes as a primary resource on Mormon history. He is a profoundly anti-Mormon writer who uses biased sources in a way that I found very unbecoming for a purported Christian scholar.”

This is utterly false. One Nation Under Gods actually uses as its primary sources of documentation a wide array of official writings from the church (and unofficial Mormon writings) from well-respected leaders throughout LDS history. These sources are quoted extensively and form the bulk of references: Book of Mormon (original 1830 edition), Book of Mormon (modern edition), Articles of Faith, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham, Book of Commandments, Doctrine and Covenants, A Comprehensive History of the Church, Documentary History of the Church, Journal of Discourses, Millennial Star, The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Pearl of Great Price, and Times and Seasons. Internet sources cited in the endnotes of One Nation Under Gods are websites of the above resources that can be accessed by the general public.

flameburns623 also alleged, “In recounting Smith’s life, Abanes exclusively relies upon sources which disliked Joseph Smith, leading the incautious reader to wonder how on earth such a self-evident scoundrel could have ever drawn a following at all.”

Again, this is completely false. I quote from primary sources, including faithful Mormons and non-hostile news sources, diaries, and scholarly books by historians.

But, if you don’t want to trust me, I recommend, Tanner, Vogel, Marquardt, and D. Michael Quinn. But this will require you to get many different books. My whole point of writing One Nation Under Gods was to try to collate as much information from many books into one volume (History). My second book on Mormonism, Inside Today’s Mormonism, concentrates more on LDS doctrine – and it even includes an Appendix by a BYU professor who expressed his own views about why is is a Mormon.

1. Abanes rarely uses primary sources.
   = TOTALLY FALSE
2. He uses secondary sources known to be incorrect or which are known to have incorrectly quoted or misused evidence
   = TOTALLY FALSE
3. His book is inaccurate in numberless places
   = WRONG
4. He deliberately and self-consciously discounts any and all evidence that does not conform to his agenda
   = WRONG

And BTW, the FAIR-LDS and FARM reviews are rife with false assertions, lies, misrepresentations, and nit-picking that makes them little more than attempts to simply discredit a book in order to keep it from being read.

R. Abanes