Good book on Mormonism?

[AMDGtoo]

A very comprehensive one with much accurate research and even photocopies of early Mormon documents would be Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s Mormonism Shadow or Reality. But even though the book was written by Sandra Tanner, a decendant of Brigham Young and her researcher husband, there have been claims that it is “anti-Mormon”, so if a reader has to be aware of that.

I usually stick with books that are accurate (and written by Mormons themselves.) Grant Palmer’s And Insider’s Guide to Mormon Beginnings is one. Another a book (that isn’t “anti”) that deals with the early polygamy of the Mormon church is Todd Compton’s In Sacred Loneliness

 

[Richard_Abanes]

AMD: I usually stick with books that are accurate (and written by Mormons themselves.)

RA: IMHO, that’s an oxymoron. VERY rarely will you see those two things together.

RA

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Hey B,

Yeah, I look at some of those comments by FAIR - FARMS guys and just shake my head. This is a good example: “When Brigham Young declared that Joseph ‘reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere,’ the ‘there’ spoken of was not the celestial kingdom, but, rather, the spirit world.”

I really hate to ask the obvious question, but well, here goes: Where exactly IS the Celestial Kingdom? Hmmmmm, let’s see…Oh, yeah, it’s in the Spirit World that Joseph watches over and reigns supreme.

They love to mince words, slice and dice, nit-pick at jots and tittles, while missing the big white elephant sitting on their backs. Ah well. It sometimes does make for interesting reading and seeing how people think and analyze things.

Oh, and BTW, just FYI, here’s what I actually wrote on p. 175 to flesh out the precise meaning of what Young was saying:

“Brigham Young, for instance warned: ‘(N)o man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. . . . (E)very man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are.’ He explained: ‘[Smith] holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation – the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly. . . . He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.’”
Sounds pretty clear to me. How about you???

RA
Sigh…

Hi Richard,

Yes, your quote does sound very clear to me. And I was also wondering when I read the original review what is the difference between the Celestial Kingdom and the Spirit World? Thanks for clearing that up.

I also agree that the big white elephant, or the big question for me, is, “Was Joseph Smith an actual Prophet of God designated by God to restore His Church?” Thus all the nitpicking in the review, though (somewhat) interesting, seems almost beside the (big) point.

My friend has a copy of your book now, by the way, and will be reading it. God bless.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Friend, yo yo yo, PLEASE don’t put words in my mouth, mmkay?

Here, for the record, you can quote me: “Roman Catholicism is NOT a non-Christian cult.”

There. Better?

peace,

RA

Oooops

Well, it has been a few years since I looked through it.

My apologies sir.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

no problem!!!

And WOOT!! – GO ASLAN!!!

 

[Richard_Abanes]

**QUOTED BY FLAME: The advantage of the FAIR-LDS review is that it listed a number of the historical issues the reviewer felt showed the flaws in ONUG.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ…d=527&q=abanes**

I have a full rebuttal of this so-called “review” that shows how full of misrepresentations it is. I also include my responses to the false statements Reed makes about his contacts with my editor Rob Grover, and the false statements from Grover himself – who was fired from his position after editing my original hard cover. Several of the errors that crept into that edition were a direct result of editing errors on the part of Grover. Anyone who wants a copy of this public statement – VERY lengthy and detailed – need only email me from my website www.abanes.com.

R.A.

 

[RebeccaJ]

**QUOTED BY FLAME: The advantage of the FAIR-LDS review is that it listed a number of the historical issues the reviewer felt showed the flaws in ONUG.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ…d=527&q=abanes**

I have a full rebuttal of this so-called “review” that shows how full of misrepresentations it is. I also include my responses to the false statements Reed makes about his contacts with my editor Rob Grover, and the false statements from Grover himself – who was fired from his position after editing my original hard cover. Several of the errors that crept into that edition were a direct result of editing errors on the part of Grover. Anyone who wants a copy of this public statement – VERY lengthy and detailed – need only email me from my website www.abanes.com.

R.A.

ok, I just have to ask, do you write this:

abanes.com/About_Richard_Abanes.html

If you did, it strikes me as pretty funny to write stuff like this about yourself. And I think it is how I am going to start responding to posts.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

**QUOTED BY FLAME: The advantage of the FAIR-LDS review is that it listed a number of the historical issues the reviewer felt showed the flaws in ONUG.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publ…d=527&q=abanes**

I have a full rebuttal of this so-called “review” that shows how full of misrepresentations it is. I also include my responses to the false statements Reed makes about his contacts with my editor Rob Grover, and the false statements from Grover himself – who was fired from his position after editing my original hard cover. Several of the errors that crept into that edition were a direct result of editing errors on the part of Grover. Anyone who wants a copy of this public statement – VERY lengthy and detailed – need only email me from my website www.abanes.com.

R.A.

Hi Richard,

When I try to go to your rebuttal I just get a message that the document is not found. Is there a different link? Thanks.

 

[Jerusha]

I like Terryl Givens. He and OSCard are about the only LDS authors I enjoy reading, simply because they have the courage to criticize from within.

Richard, I will read your book, hopefully today. I can send you a copy of mine, if you want. It is still on the workbench, and we can exchange notes.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Brennan, Here’s the link – abanes.com/ And it’s not up at the website. I’ll have to email it to you, as I noted in my post: “Anyone who wants a copy of this public statement – VERY lengthy and detailed – need only email me.”

---

RebeccaJ: … ok, I just have to ask, do you write this:

RA: ok, I just have to answer = not really, no, and yes.

This “bio” is actually copied and pieced together from various sources including PR material released by my publisher, news blurbs, articles, wiki material, and my own additions for clarity and information. TBH, I think probably 100 + people must have written it since it’s essentially the WIKI article that is up on me (you can check), but I tweaked it a little.

Just FYI, the “ABOUT ME” link at the bottom of my pages that now lead to abanes.com/About_Richard_Abanes.html used to actually just link the WIKI article. However, that link to WIKI was causing various Virus Software programs to warn people of a virus at my website (for some reason, some virus checkers DO NOT like Wiki links, fyi). So, I copied the Wiki article and just put it up at my own server so as to stop the faulty virus warnings.

There. Now, my questions to you are: 1) Why so ready to jump on my case? 2) Why such am undercurrent of hostility? 3) are you a Mormon? 4) You do realize that most authors, musicians, politicians, actors, and other public figures have biographies/histories (usually complete with pictures even, which I don’t have) at their websites, right?

RA

 

[Jerusha]

I had to do an interlibrary loan request. Looks like our minds are running in the same direction, or I may have picked up some of your material unintentionally from some of your readers.

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Oh, just FYI everyone, for all of you Catholic readers, I also have a great book, if I do say so myself, on Lent! Actually, it’s kind of a fun little book that talks about Lent traditions, history, and proofs/importance of the resurrection – HE IS RISEN. I think I even quote John Paul and some other RC peeps. Might be fun for you guys. It breaks own to ac ool littel daily devotional with family projects/readings and stuff for the Forty Days of Lent.

Am I allowed to post this? Moderators, feel free to delete if I committed a venial sin here.

RA

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Brennan, Here’s the link – abanes.com/ And it’s not up at the website. I’ll have to email it to you, as I noted in my post: “Anyone who wants a copy of this public statement – VERY lengthy and detailed – need only email me.”

Hi Richard,

Ok, I’ve noticed that I didn’t pay attention to your original instructions. Mea culpa. So I just contacted you via your website about the rebuttal. Thanks.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Oh, just FYI everyone, for all of you Catholic readers, I also have a great book, if I do say so myself, on Lent! Actually, it’s kind of a fun little book that talks about Lent traditions, history, and proofs/importance of the resurrection – HE IS RISEN. I think I even quote John Paul and some other RC peeps. Might be fun for you guys. It breaks own to ac ool littel daily devotional with family projects/readings and stuff for the Forty Days of Lent.

Am I allowed to post this? Moderators, feel free to delete if I committed a venial sin here.

RA

And it’s available for the Amazon Kindle too. Nice.

 

[sola_scriptura]

I see a substantial focus on Mormonism and Islam in the non-Catholic forum, I wonder why? I haven’t seen anyone converted away from these faith systems through participation here, so I guess I’m curious if these faiths pose a major challenge to Catholicism?

I don’t hear of many within my own Protestant community converting to these faith systems. It’s funny I had JW a couple attempt to evangelize to me, and I invited them in my home to discuss theology. I guess it ultimately became apparent to them that I was far more versed in theology then they were; which is why I assume I haven’t heard back from them. They left my home I’m sure doubting their own faith systems presentation of predestination, grace, and divine providence, since they were wholly unable to challenge the proof texts I offered in support of Calvinist theology.

They wholly rejected the lordship of Christ and attribute the title Lord as something akin to how we might address a dignitary. They reject trinitarian doctrine, but interestingly they also really don’t understand it in any substantive way.

It seems to me, in my years of debating and researching theology, the reformed understanding of predestination and grace (more specifically the Calvinist rendering) is both the most wonderful but also the most misconstrued theological system in all of Christianity. People generally are repelled by Calvinist soteriology because it seems to offend their world view; as if the Gospel isn’t always offensive to the world?

Anyway, just though toss in my two cents!

 

[RebeccaJ]

There. Now, my questions to you are: 1) Why so ready to jump on my case? 2) Why such am undercurrent of hostility? 3) are you a Mormon? 4) You do realize that most authors, musicians, politicians, actors, and other public figures have biographies/histories (usually complete with pictures even, which I don’t have) at their websites, right?

RA

oh, just saw this

1. not jumping on your case
2. not hostile…DON’T TELL ME I’M HOSTILE!
3. hell no
4. yes…and some write their own…and I find the third-person writing of oneself to be humorous…that’s all…like this one

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Rebecca: yes…and some write their own…and I find the third-person writing of oneself to be humorous…that’s all…like

RA: It often has to be like that, though, because stuff like that gets used on jackets, covers, book releases, PR shots, ads, etc etc etc. It all HAS to be third person, just fyi.

RA

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca: yes…and some write their own…and I find the third-person writing of oneself to be humorous…that’s all…like

RA: It often has to be like that, though, because stuff like that gets used on jackets, covers, book releases, PR shots, ads, etc etc etc. It all HAS to be third person, just fyi.

RA

Yes I know, I worked for a publisher for more than two decades.

It is only humorous when you write it yourself. Me, writing about Richard Abanes, bleh, bleh, bleh.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I see a substantial focus on Mormonism and Islam in the non-Catholic forum, I wonder why? I haven’t seen anyone converted away from these faith systems through participation here, so I guess I’m curious if these faiths pose a major challenge to Catholicism?

I don’t hear of many within my own Protestant community converting to these faith systems. It’s funny I had JW a couple attempt to evangelize to me, and I invited them in my home to discuss theology. I guess it ultimately became apparent to them that I was far more versed in theology then they were; which is why I assume I haven’t heard back from them. They left my home I’m sure doubting their own faith systems presentation of predestination, grace, and divine providence, since they were wholly unable to challenge the proof texts I offered in support of Calvinist theology.

They wholly rejected the lordship of Christ and attribute the title Lord as something akin to how we might address a dignitary. They reject trinitarian doctrine, but interestingly they also really don’t understand it in any substantive way.

It seems to me, in my years of debating and researching theology, the reformed understanding of predestination and grace (more specifically the Calvinist rendering) is both the most wonderful but also the most misconstrued theological system in all of Christianity. People generally are repelled by Calvinist soteriology because it seems to offend their world view; as if the Gospel isn’t always offensive to the world?

Anyway, just though toss in my two cents!

Hi Sola Scriptura, thanks for responding. I think when talking about Catholics being led astray by other faith systems it really depends on the Catholic. As most will agree, the catechesis of Catholics has been horrendous these past thirty or forty years, making Catholics too easy prey for other faiths like Protestantism, Mormonism, JW’s, etc. I’m not sure about Islam, as that is different enough that I don’t think a Catholic would convert as easily to that.

Thus when someone of another belief approaches a Catholic and starts telling him his Church is unbiblical, and then starts quoting scripture, too often, because of not being taught the what and why of Catholic dogmas, the Catholic will be unable to even come up with a counterargument, and may not even know where to look.

If a Catholic, like many on these forums, has actually studied the Faith, then they are much less vulnerable and less likely to convert to a different faith. I myself am a convert to Catholicism after seventeen years as a Protestant and since I had to study the faith before I converted I don’t feel much of any draw or temptation to leave the Church for another faith (though I don’t mind debating at all). At this point I am reminded of Peter’s words to Christ in John 6: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

Your take on Calvinism is interesting to me. I was trying to find the quote, I think from Chesterton, that Calvinism turns the devil into a god and God into a devil. I can see what he is saying in regards to double predestination. I think people instinctively reject Calvinism (double predestination) not because it offends them, but because it is a tremendous offense against God. God predestinating souls to be damned is far from wonderful. God bless.

 

[flameburns623]

I see a substantial focus on Mormonism and Islam in the non-Catholic forum, I wonder why? I haven’t seen anyone converted away from these faith systems through participation here, so I guess I’m curious if these faiths pose a major challenge to Catholicism?

I don’t hear of many within my own Protestant community converting to these faith systems. It’s funny I had JW a couple attempt to evangelize to me, and I invited them in my home to discuss theology. I guess it ultimately became apparent to them that I was far more versed in theology then they were; which is why I assume I haven’t heard back from them. They left my home I’m sure doubting their own faith systems presentation of predestination, grace, and divine providence, since they were wholly unable to challenge the proof texts I offered in support of Calvinist theology.

They wholly rejected the lordship of Christ and attribute the title Lord as something akin to how we might address a dignitary. They reject trinitarian doctrine, but interestingly they also really don’t understand it in any substantive way.

It seems to me, in my years of debating and researching theology, the reformed understanding of predestination and grace (more specifically the Calvinist rendering) is both the most wonderful but also the most misconstrued theological system in all of Christianity. People generally are repelled by Calvinist soteriology because it seems to offend their world view; as if the Gospel isn’t always offensive to the world?

Anyway, just though toss in my two cents!

Mromons regularly evangelize people at their own doorsteps, and Catholics are especially vulnerable to this, IMHO, because the RCC has never evolved a good, churchwide system of post-confirmation religious education, geared to helping Catholics not only live their faith but discuss it in terms understandable to outsiders. Protestants have had 150-plus years of Sunday-schools, geared towards all ages and in many denominations towards a variety of needs and environments. So the bleed-away of less-actrive Protestants is less acute than that of less-active Catholics.

Islam has become to the current generation what Eastern Religions were to the 1960’s and 1970’s–a counterculture religion. So there is a mystique and appeal to it, despite it’s associations with violence and terror, deserved or underserved as those associations may be.

The biggest reason that one sees so many posts on these subjects however, is that Muslims and Mormons come to the site regularly to engage Catholics on the issues. Jehovah’s Witnesses are as aggressive as Mormons in door-to-door proselyting but aren’t nearly so frequently the subject of threads on this forum becasue they aren’t supposed to be here. Even Christian Scientists (admittedly not a growing movement) or Seventh-day Adventists are not here very often to respond when their groups are criticised. So after a few exchanges about the SDA movement or Mary Baker Eddy, the threads tend to die and no follow-up threads are usually spawned from peripheral issues raised in other threads.

On the other hand, Episcopalians are almost as commonly discussed as Mormons, and ARE represented on this forum rather liberally–so we see threads on Anglican issues come up several times a week, if not daily.

Just my opinion.