Good Bye Crime-Law & Privacy, Hello Military-Ruled World (about Terrorism as a Military Excuse)

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So we cut back on snooping. We cut back on phone taps. We cut back on examining meta data from your internet provider. We cut back on security checks. We cut back on everything that some people consider to be an invasion of privacy.

Then another plane flies into another building and everyone asks: But why couldn’t you have stopped this?

Wanna know who the bad guys are? Well, you have to sift through a lot of information from a lot of innocent people before you get any idea. The people we are fighting live amongst us. They are British, American, Australian, French…they are not simply Iraquis or Afghanis or Iranians wearing a black t shirt and a scarf around their face waving a AK47 standing on top of a half track screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’

I don’t like it any more than anyone else. But I’m definitely not too keen on the alternatives.
 
Viki63 said:
Is your theory that terrorists become terrorists because they come from poor conditions, and are protesting? I think that idea has been debunked, though I can’t cite quotes. Many terrorists come from wealthy or comfortable middle class homes – look at Jihadi John, who grew up in London and attended the University of Westminster, then worked as an IT salesman. Something besides poverty and illiteracy causes terrorists. Sin, maybe?

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I could debunk this in a minute.

I live in Europe. There’s is much going on here economically which is bad. Europe has never really been a wealthy continent. They think they’ve h ad some good years back in the 70 and 80’s but, of course, it’s always what you compare to, no?

So much poverty here which I see with my own eyes. No need for statistics. Some town worse than others.
But no crime.

So you’re right Vicki63.

So it could be sin, it could be that one is raised hating, it could be the acquisition of ‘power’, it could be some idea of justice which is skewed, it could be many things, but it cannot be poverty.

I didn’t even read the whole post above yours, but re the palestinians / why has Israel been able to flourish and not them?? This is something I wonder about but I don’t adhere to the reasons given. It has to be something else, which I do not know.

Fran
 
Bradski said:
So we cut back on snooping. We cut back on phone taps. We cut back on examining meta data from your internet provider. We cut back on security checks. We cut back on everything that some people consider to be an invasion of privacy.

Then another plane flies into another building and everyone asks: But why couldn’t you have stopped this?

Wanna know who the bad guys are? Well, you have to sift through a lot of information from a lot of innocent people before you get any idea. The people we are fighting live amongst us. They are British, American, Australian, French…they are not simply Iraquis or Afghanis or Iranians wearing a black t shirt and a scarf around their face waving a AK47 standing on top of a half track screaming ‘Allah Akbar!’

I don’t like it any more than anyone else. But I’m definitely not too keen on the alternatives.
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You’re right Bradski. Seems like the good are always paying the price for the bad. So I agree with you 100%. There goes my privacy - but it’s necessary because I don’t like the alternative.

This from a former ultra liberal who grew up on:
1984
Fahrenheit 451
Brave New World

You know there’s a law here actually, no. 85 if I remember, that prohibits people from being in public with their face covered. But that one is not enforced. I find this interesting… Does privacy exist for some?? Hmm.

Fran
 
Large parts of this entire thread are essentially insane, poorly written, poorly reasoned drivel blaming the USA for terrorism - by the same people who sleep in their warm beds under the mantle of military protection afforded in large part by the US military.

The UN is a shill for the USA? Sorry, that’s so bad it doesn’t need to be debunked.

I actually sat on the sidelines for so long because OPs posts weren’t really worth responding to - but things got so bad I had to say something.

If you don’t like the USA or the west, feel free to leave. If the west is so bad, why are all the refugees coming here instead of leaving? I’m sure some nice middle eastern cesspool - the kind where Christians are being persecuted; churches burned; where women have zero rights; etc. - would be more welcoming of Christianity, right?
 
PolarGuy said:
Large parts of this entire thread are essentially insane, poorly written, poorly reasoned drivel blaming the USA for terrorism - by the same people who sleep in their warm beds under the mantle of military protection afforded in large part by the US military.

The UN is a shill for the USA? Sorry, that’s so bad it doesn’t need to be debunked.

I actually sat on the sidelines for so long because OPs posts weren’t really worth responding to - but things got so bad I had to say something.

If you don’t like the USA or the west, feel free to leave. If the west is so bad, why are all the refugees coming here instead of leaving? I’m sure some nice middle eastern cesspool - the kind where Christians are being persecuted; churches burned; where women have zero rights; etc. - would be more welcoming of Christianity, right?
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Hey PolarGuy

Do what I do - skip some of the posts!

Who wants to read the sos / same old story.

People will believe what they want to believe - especially when one is in one of those nice warm beds…

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Hey PolarGuy

Do what I do - skip some of the posts!

Who wants to read the sos / same old story.

People will believe what they want to believe - especially when one is in one of those nice warm beds…

Fran
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True.

But know that your statement includes yourself.
 
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We cannot rest. Yes, some of us sleep in our warm beds, but those who work for the NRO, NSA, FBI, CIA and law enforcement are at work every day. But these people know more than we do. A lot more. And some of them don’t go to see sleep easily because they are aware of the threats. They know what can happen. It is their job to spot and stop the terrorists, the international criminals.

We still have plenty of crime in the US. People kill or injure others every day. And who cares for those who may die due to their injuries? And what about ‘career criminals’? Those who get locked up for a short time or end up on a tether?

Ed
 
edwest2 said:
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We cannot rest. Yes, some of us sleep in our warm beds, but those who work for the NRO, NSA, FBI, CIA and law enforcement are at work every day. But these people know more than we do. A lot more. And some of them don’t go to see sleep easily because they are aware of the threats. They know what can happen. It is their job to spot and stop the terrorists, the international criminals.

We still have plenty of crime in the US. People kill or injure others every day. And who cares for those who may die due to their injuries? And what about ‘career criminals’? Those who get locked up for a short time or end up on a tether?

Ed
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Some of us get to sleep well, and some of us don’t because we know what could happen - not just the agencies you mentioned above.

I like what you said in your previous post regarding how we get used to how things are and so there’s no marching on Washington.

The Boston Tea Party was over a 1% tax on tea.

How much are we paying these days??

Once you accept something oppressive it becomes normal after time - even if it’s not. Sad.

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Some of us get to sleep well, and some of us don’t because we know what could happen - not just the agencies you mentioned above.

I like what you said in your previous post regarding how we get used to how things are and so there’s no marching on Washington.

The Boston Tea Party was over a 1% tax on tea.

How much are we paying these days??

Once you accept something oppressive it becomes normal after time - even if it’s not. Sad.

Fran
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Oppressive? In what way are people being oppressed?

In the late 1960s, I head the radicals yelling “We’ll burn this country down if we have to.” Look up the Weathermen, or Weather Underground. The SDS was not getting anywhere but oppression was a common theme (I personally knew one of these people). And I went to bed every night knowing that Russian ICBMs could be on their way at any moment.

Ed
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Some of us get to sleep well, and some of us don’t because we know what could happen - not just the agencies you mentioned above.

I like what you said in your previous post regarding how we get used to how things are and so there’s no marching on Washington.

The Boston Tea Party was over a 1% tax on tea.

How much are we paying these days??

Once you accept something oppressive it becomes normal after time - even if it’s not. Sad.

Fran
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Great post, I dont think we ever have to worry about a boston tea party type event to take place again, no matter what the Govt did, I doubt anyone today would care enough to take such actions, they would simply lay down and accept it, too worried about getting in trouble themselves, that is the difference between people today versus people in boston at that time!
 
edwest2 said:
Oppressive? In what way are people being oppressed?

In the late 1960s, I head the radicals yelling “We’ll burn this country down if we have to.” Look up the Weathermen, or Weather Underground. The SDS was not getting anywhere but oppression was a common theme (I personally knew one of these people). And I went to bed every night knowing that Russian ICBMs could be on their way at any moment.

Ed
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I was alive in the 60’s.

I’m sorry I don’t understand your post.

But do you think we are NOT oppressed??

I’m saying there was a revolt in Boston for a 1% tax on tea. How much of your pay are you paying in taxes these days? That’s not oppression?

Your phone conversation is probably being overheard by someone in power. That’s not oppressive?

You have to take your shoes off at the security check at the airport, that’s not oppressive?

I HAVE TO wear a seat belt. Is that oppressive?

Pretty soon ALL children will be obligated to have vaccine shots. Is that oppressive?

Most retired persons are on fixed incomes but the real estate tax on their home goes up every year. Is that oppression?

I could go on but my fingers are getting tired.

This is the problem: We’re told that all of the above is for our own good. I’m sure you remember that sentence as much as I do. And, indeed, some of it is - like the airport thing. But, at the same time, our liberties are being reduced.

You don’t agree?

Fran
 
mikekle said:
Great post, I dont think we ever have to worry about a boston tea party type event to take place again, no matter what the Govt did, I doubt anyone today would care enough to take such actions, they would simply lay down and accept it, too worried about getting in trouble themselves, that is the difference between people today versus people in boston at that time!
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Yes. I agree, Boston is safe - we’re very different today. Just leave me my ipad and I’m good. What goes on??? We lay down and the armored vehicles are on the way…

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
I was alive in the 60’s.

I’m sorry I don’t understand your post.

But do you think we are NOT oppressed??

I’m saying there was a revolt in Boston for a 1% tax on tea. How much of your pay are you paying in taxes these days? That’s not oppression?

Your phone conversation is probably being overheard by someone in power. That’s not oppressive?

You have to take your shoes off at the security check at the airport, that’s not oppressive?

I HAVE TO wear a seat belt. Is that oppressive?

Pretty soon ALL children will be obligated to have vaccine shots. Is that oppressive?

Most retired persons are on fixed incomes but the real estate tax on their home goes up every year. Is that oppression?

I could go on but my fingers are getting tired.

This is the problem: We’re told that all of the above is for our own good. I’m sure you remember that sentence as much as I do. And, indeed, some of it is - like the airport thing. But, at the same time, our liberties are being reduced.

You don’t agree?

Fran
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No.

It seems that you really do have a problem with rules and authority - not just in the Church. 😉
 
Upgrade25 said:
The Church is infallible, though. The Gov’t isn’t by a long shot.
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Thanks Upgrade25.

Some understand and some don’t.
BTW, I DO follow church rules.
And also, alas, govt rules.

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
You don’t agree?
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C’mon, Fran…

How much better off are you than people were in the 18th century? Your taxes pay for it.

Your phone conversations are almost certainly not being listened to by anyone. Unless someone has got official permission to do so. Be glad that people with evil intent have theirs monitored.

What would you prefer. Taking your shoes off (and having your bags X-rayed, your documentation checked, getting scanned, scrutinised by cctv etc etc) or getting on a plane without any checks at all.

Seat belts? My bet is that you have never been in a car accident. Before it was compulsory in the UK I didn’t wear one. I still have the facial scars to illustrate my stupidity.

And vaccines? Well, not getting it done is about as dumb as Mormons refusing blood transfusions for their kids. Or as irresponsible as driving them anywhere without demanding that they put their seat belts on.

There’s a huge difference in losing some personal freedom and being oppressed.
 
Bradski said:
C’mon, Fran…

How much better off are you than people were in the 18th century? Your taxes pay for it.

Your phone conversations are almost certainly not being listened to by anyone. Unless someone has got official permission to do so. Be glad that people with evil intent have theirs monitored.

What would you prefer. Taking your shoes off (and having your bags X-rayed, your documentation checked, getting scanned, scrutinised by cctv etc etc) or getting on a plane without any checks at all.

Seat belts? My bet is that you have never been in a car accident. Before it was compulsory in the UK I didn’t wear one. I still have the facial scars to illustrate my stupidity.

And vaccines? Well, not getting it done is about as dumb as Mormons refusing blood transfusions for their kids. Or as irresponsible as driving them anywhere without demanding that they put their seat belts on.

There’s a huge difference in losing some personal freedom and being oppressed.
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When you’re forced to do something by a power much greater than you and to which you cannot defend yourself or disagree, you are being oppressed.

I said that most of the time it’s for our good, that doesn’t change anything.

I didn’t say we shouldn’t pay our taxes, I said they’re oppressive.

I don’t mind taking my shoes off at the airport, but it is oppressive since I cannot NOT take them off. For whatever reason that it may be necessary - which I agree with.

As far as my phone conversations and my email, I beg to differ with you.

It is certainly true here because there’s talk all the time of creating a law making it illegal to listen in - which means that they are. In fact, I’ll go one step further: Our politicians phone calls are intercepted and monitored! You could imagine we little folk!

Plus, I’m better off today because of the industrial revolution. I’d say that the amount of tax I pay is taking away much of my standard of living - or quality of life.

Where are you that you’re so happy to pay? I’m comin’ over!

Fran
Actually, it’s a bit too far…
 
Bradski said:
Down rather than over. Get a flight to Sydney and a cab to Bondi. You’ll never want to leave.
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Yeah. That’s what I’m afraid of!

And, for family reasons, it’s necessary that I stay in this part of the world, or who knows!

Know some people in Perth. That seems pretty darn nice too. As was where I grew up and raised my family - Northern Queens, NYC.

But, alas, life does happen.

Good day
Fran
 
Recent development: On 17Dec2015
UN Security Council meeting of Finance Ministers on Countering the Financing of Terrorism
UN Secretary Ban Kin Moon remarks:

Mr. President, let me begin by thanking the Government of the United States for its leadership in convening this historic first-ever Security Council meeting of Finance Ministers.

I salute your decision to focus on countering the financing of terrorism.

As Da’esh and other terrorist groups disseminate their hateful propaganda and ratchet up murderous attacks, we must join forces to prevent them from acquiring and deploying resources to do further harm.

We know the challenge before us.

Terrorists take advantage of weaknesses in financial and regulatory regimes to raise funds.

They circumvent formal channels to avoid detection, and exploit new technologies and tools to transfer resources.

read the rest:
un.org/apps/news/infocus/sgspeeches/statments_full.asp?statID=2882

I see that Mr Obama begin to realize that crime approach is imporant to defeat ISIS. This is good progress in my opinion. However, there are things that is implied in the above speech that need caution: how do you treat the privacy of financial matters, and moreover how do you keep criminal justice free from military motivation?

Here is why criminal justice is under judiciary system and should not be construed under a military purpose and or any other purposes: to treat a person as a suspect is different as compared to treat him as a war enemy. Our civil liberty should always be protected by a law that doesnt defferenciate race, religion, social status, and so on.

Hence criminal approach will be much better in keeping the civil society in peace and harmony assuming that the new step taken by obama’s initiative (banning finance for terrorism activity) keep itself away from tainting criminal justice with military motivation within financial investigation, otherwise, the mistep in this area will create financial dictatorship infrastructure that maybe effective in tackling ISIS but then it becomes an infrastructure for governments (finance ministers) to control everyone, hence another form of dictatorship tool in the area of finance.

I think by now, lesson from libiya, pakistan, and so on: a military approach will only install a regime/ puppet government that in the end prolong military dictatorship in that area. Question should be asked: isn’t it time for US foreign policy to review whether such approach really extend “democracy message” or rather, it has now reap the fruit from the seeds it sows: it has endangered US own national security as much as the whole world, in which it believe in weapons dictatorship to lead, and probably-- if not careful in the new initiative, crime law tainted by military motives-- dictatorship through finance too.
 
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