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hu324b
Guest
All things must be done for Gods glory - if you have done it for yourself and your own glory you have gotten your reward.
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meltzerboy
New member
You may or may not be aware that Judaism disagrees with the idea that G-d owes us nothing. The notion of a Covenant is regarded as a reciprocal legal and ethical agreement between G-d and man. Further, G-d has made certain promises to mankind in general and the Jewish people in particular: for example, that He would not destroy most of the earth by means of another flood. In short, Judaism does not view mankind as “sinners” but rather as people who commit sins (there is a difference) but can seek and receive forgiveness by means of repentance (this is similar to Catholicism). This notion is related to Judaism’s refusal to accept the concept of original, inherited sin.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Doesn’t traditional Judaism acknowledge a fallen state of man following the sin in the garden ?
But regardless, my point was God owes us nothing by our natures. He gave us life and that is a gift of itself.
He doesn’t owe us reward for “doing good”.
Being in a covenant is different. We have faith that God does hold up his side of the covenant (the law for you or the new covenant for us).
The real question is are we honoring our side of the covenant?
T
Techno2000
Guest
Romans 2:6
New International Version
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
New Living Translation
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
English Standard Version
He will render to each one according to his works:
New American Standard Bible
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
King James Bible
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will repay each one according to his works:
International Standard Version
For he will repay everyone according to what that person has done:
NET Bible
He will reward each one according to his works:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who pays every person according to his works:
GOD’S WORD® Translation
He will pay all people back for what they have done.
Jubilee Bible 2000
who will render to everyone according to his deeds:
King James 2000 Bible
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
American King James Version
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
American Standard Version
who will render to every man according to his works:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will render to every man according to his works.
Darby Bible Translation
who shall render to each according to his works:
English Revised Version
who will render to every man according to his works:
Webster’s Bible Translation
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Weymouth New Testament
To each man He will make an award corresponding to his actions;
World English Bible
who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:”
Young’s Literal Translation
who shall render to each according to his works;Romans 2:6
New International Version
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
New Living Translation
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
English Standard Version
He will render to each one according to his works:
New American Standard Bible
who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
King James Bible
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will repay each one according to his works:
International Standard Version
For he will repay everyone according to what that person has done:
NET Bible
He will reward each one according to his works:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who pays every person according to his works:
GOD’S WORD® Translation
He will pay all people back for what they have done.
Jubilee Bible 2000
who will render to everyone according to his deeds:
King James 2000 Bible
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
American King James Version
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
American Standard Version
who will render to every man according to his works:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will render to every man according to his works.
Darby Bible Translation
who shall render to each according to his works:
English Revised Version
who will render to every man according to his works:
Webster’s Bible Translation
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Weymouth New Testament
To each man He will make an award corresponding to his actions;
World English Bible
who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:”
Young’s Literal Translation
who shall render to each according to his works;Romans 2:6
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I’m not denying good works play a role in our response to Christ. You must do his works, demonstrate your faith.
If you can do it on your own without Christ…
Answer me,
Why did he die?
Why bother being Catholic?
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
No, but you might make Eagle Scout!
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Todd977
Guest
It depends. Ordinarily, belief in the Lord Jesus Christ and membership (baptism) in his Catholic Church are necessary to go to heaven. Thus, if you knowingly reject the Lordship of Jesus Christ or knowingly reject his Catholic Church, then heaven is out of your reach, no matter how many good deeds you do? However, heaven is possible even to the person who, through no fault of his own is invincibly ignorant of Jesus Christ and his Catholic Church, provided his endeavors to do God’s will as he understands it by the light of his conscience. Thus, if you are, through no fault of your own, invincibly ignorant of the Lord Jesus Christ and of his Catholic Church but do good deeds because you believe that that is God’s will, then heaven is possible for you.
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Techno2000
Guest
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I was waiting for this to pop up. It always does.
It’s important that people understand what this means.
This teaching developed after discovery of the new world. The discovery of millennia of “damned souls”. It is really about unreached people groups.
But even if it applies in America today where invincible ignorance is hard to find, it is a speculative pronouncement. An idea that God MAY work in this way.
That is a big difference from what GOD TELLS US. From his revealed truth.
His revealed truth is that salvation is only found in Christ through the ark of the church. That one must be baptized and “perseverance to the end”.
This is why the church evangelizes and reaches out and tries to save souls by bringing them into the church.
Salvation is not found in the rotary club.
For someone who has never heard of Christ, then maybe God works in their life differently. But if they are saved it is not from their deeds but from their pursuit of God and Being just and merciful to others.
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Techno2000
Guest
Proverbs 19:17
New Living Translation
If you help the poor, you are lending to the LORD–and he will repay you!
English Standard Version
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.
New American Standard Bible
One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed.
King James Bible
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
NET Bible
The one who is gracious to the poor lends to the LORD, and the LORD will repay him for his good deed.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
Whoever has pity on the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his good deed.
.King James 2000 Bible
He that has pity upon the poor lends unto the LORD; and that which he has given will he pay him again.
American King James Version
He that has pity on the poor lends to the LORD; and that which he has given will he pay him again.
American Standard Version
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto Jehovah, And his good deed will he pay him again.
Douay-Rheims Bible
He that hath mercy on the poor, lendeth to the Lord: and he will repay him.
Darby Bible Translation
He that is gracious to the poor lendeth unto Jehovah; and what he hath bestowed will he repay unto him.
Young’s Literal Translation
Whoso is lending to Jehovah is favouring the poor, And his deed He repayeth to him.
New Living Translation
If you help the poor, you are lending to the LORD–and he will repay you!
English Standard Version
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his deed.
New American Standard Bible
One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed.
King James Bible
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
NET Bible
The one who is gracious to the poor lends to the LORD, and the LORD will repay him for his good deed.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
Whoever has pity on the poor lends to the LORD, and he will repay him for his good deed.
.King James 2000 Bible
He that has pity upon the poor lends unto the LORD; and that which he has given will he pay him again.
American King James Version
He that has pity on the poor lends to the LORD; and that which he has given will he pay him again.
American Standard Version
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto Jehovah, And his good deed will he pay him again.
Douay-Rheims Bible
He that hath mercy on the poor, lendeth to the Lord: and he will repay him.
Darby Bible Translation
He that is gracious to the poor lendeth unto Jehovah; and what he hath bestowed will he repay unto him.
Young’s Literal Translation
Whoso is lending to Jehovah is favouring the poor, And his deed He repayeth to him.
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ MrPizzaDude,
Absolutely NOT.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING:
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Further conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible:
“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.
This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
If we believe: Work is condition of our salvation, then our works can NEVER BE UP TO THE ABOVE STANDARDS because we do it for ourselves to purchase salvation not for love and for the Glory of God, and ALL our work goes up in smoke at the judgment. In reference 1 Cor.3:11-15.
CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASIZE: This is THE KEY to do supernatural merit that God accepts and recognize!!! – There is NO other way to achieve supernatural merit which is the only good works.
Our salvation is God’s FREE GIFT, paid by Christ on the cross.
HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier
Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985
Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?
We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.
Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
With love in Christ,
LH.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Once again.
A Writing of the nation of Israel. An Israelite in covenant with God. Men of faith.
If you want to make your point find me a verse that says.
“those who do not love God shall find their reward in heaven”
“the good deeds of the wicked and the faithless merit eternal life”
Please find it.
And answer my questions.
If the rotary club is a perfectly good way of being saved then why bother going to church? Why bother bring baptized and going to confession? Why bother evangelizing.
If you believe you can save yourself Jesus died in vain.
Galatians 2:21
New American Standard Bible
“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned” (Mark 16:16).
St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: “The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.”
St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”
St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: “Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved.”
St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): “All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!”
St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."
St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins”…For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."
St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church … How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!”
Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM CANON V
If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, The Athanasian Creed, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, pp. 550-553; Denzinger 39-40.)
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Techno2000
Guest
God will make all those who were just in this life a Catholic in Purgatory.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
There are no second chances in Purgatory.
You are creating your own doctrines and dogmas. Please be in the ark of the church. We have a 2000 year old tradition for a reason.
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. ** Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection** (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
**It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny. The Church’s teaching in this regard is unequivocal ** and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth’ (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)” (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
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Darryl_B
Guest
That would be the perfect way to empty churches.
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ Jon S,
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 05/22/1984
Quote: “MASONS ARE SONS OF GOD THE FATHER.”
[CCC 841] “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by John Paul II,
Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. 1994
Quote: “BUDDHISM IS A RELIGION OF SALVATION.”
Denzinger. Declaration Dominus Iesus on the Unicity and Salvific Unuversality of Jesus Christ and the Church, 6 August 2000
Quote: “MANY FALSE RELIGIONS FALL WITHIN THE PLAN OF SALVATION … NON-CHRISTIANS CAN BE SAVED AS SUCH.”
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 07/06/1980.
Quote: “ALL MEN ARE SAVED.”
Denzinger. Principles of Catholic Theology Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987
Quote: “THE GOD KHRISHNA IS A SYMBOL OF CHRIST AND REALITY.”
L’Osservator Romano, Vatican City, Italy, English edition 11/01/1993
Quote: “ALL DECEASED MEN ARE STANDING BEFORE GOD AS SAINTS.”
KEY POINTS:
- Buddhism is a religion of salvation. (In fact, ALL religion.)
- ALL men are saved.
- ALL deceased men are standing before God as saints.
LH.
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Techno2000
Guest
So what happen to all those Just souls who died before the Catholic church came along didn’t they go to Abraham’s bosom ? So now Jesus has no Mercy on a good person.
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Techno2000
Guest
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Those who went to Abraham’s Bosom worshiped God either directly (pre Abraham) or through the Covenant of Abraham.
Those who acted according to themselves did not die in Gods friendship.
The righteous are the righteous of the covenant. Those who followed God’s law.
I have no doubt though, that those who never heard of God’s law or now the Church, can be possibly saved by another mechanism. That is up to God. It is our duty to uphold and spread the teachings of Christ.
It should be telling to you that all who weren’t on the ark died in the flood. Why ? If they just went to heaven afterward.
meltzerboy
New member
From an outside observer’s perspective, many of the saints and popes of yore whom you cite seem to be ignoring the unfathomable mercy of G-d even for the faithless, as well as the Christian belief in invincible ignorance. Or was the latter precept a belief that was instituted by the Church later on?
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