Well, considering all the Jews have been through over the course of time, it certainly seems as if they are under divine protection. I do believe they are. As you say, it is the same God doing the work for all peoples. Recently I re-read Michner’s The Source. It gets tediously preachy at times, and is a long read, but it does seem to give a fairly good diagram of Jewish history up against the world.“I phrased it to say that there MUST have been restraints, most likely applied by religious leaders, against the pogroms, otherwise the Jews surely would have been wiped out.”
I have wondered if it isn’t similar to Papal infallibility. The reason theyhaven’t is because someone is looking out for them.
NOt to wander off topic, but I think I’ll look for *the Source * T ThanksWell, considering all the Jews have been through over the course of time, it certainly seems as if they are under divine protection. I do believe they are. As you say, it is the same God doing the work for all peoples. Recently I re-read Michner’s The Source. It gets tediously preachy at times, and is a long read, but it does seem to give a fairly good diagram of Jewish history up against the world.
I am willing to accept that you did not intend or understand the full implication of what you wrote. It should also be noted that some of the things you were referring to, such as the status of the Jew in Christian Europe, are subjects usually requiring at least a modicum of academic background which perhaps is not the case here.Don’t be so dadgum touchy! You are completely perverting what I said to make it seem as if I am justifying persecutions against Jews in Europe at the hands of Christians. For instance, you phrase what I said about the fact they weren’t completely wiped out as if I were stating it as something Jews should be thankful for. Nonsense. I phrased it to say that there MUST have been restraints, most likely applied by religious leaders, against the pogroms, otherwise the Jews surely would have been wiped out.
And BTW, I wasn’t there, so don’t blame me.
Anyways, if what I wrote seemed mean, I apologize. It may have come across in a way I did not intend. Please notice the context in which it was written, which was a conversation with a fundamentalist.
The fact that Jews were confined to ghettos in many places means that the Christians and secular authorities knew where they were. My understanding is that they were literally, in many places, locked behind gates after dark. This would have made annihilation even more simple a thing to do.In order to complete the picture, Jewish autonomy in Christian Europe was not a matter of choice but was imposed on the Jew by a society that had no place for the Jew. Jews lived in Europe in their seperate autonomous status following Jewish law and settling disputes in their own Jewish courts. In retrospect this allowed for the independent intellectual religious development of Judaism, culminating not only in dynamic development of Jewish halachah (law) but also in the development of the talmud, kaballah, jewish philosophy etc. as well as allowing the Jews to preserve science and medical knowledge at the hight of the dark ages.
My understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that Jews are prohibited from marrying outside the religion. Max I. Dimont wrote, with obvious pride, that the Jews were the first people in history to prohibit intermarriage, a fact which led to a certain amount of irritation among the non-Jews, as well as a source of constant problems among the Jews themselves because of disobedience to the prohibition.As for Jewish survival, needless to say Jewish autonomy which existed until the age of enlightenment indeed prevented any assimilation. Its not just that the Jews had no desire to intermarry with gentiles but that such intermarriage was socially unthinkable and also illegal in christian society.
Personally, from a non-academic point of view, I don’t see any other possible explanation.Physical Jewish survival can of course be seen from a religious point of view as an affirmation of God’s covenant with the Jews.
For me, and I’m sure for most orthodox Christians in the modern day, there is no dichotomy between Jews and Christians. Catholics don’t fail to see our religious roots in Judaism, and we love those things. I’ve never been able to understand a point of view that has some sort of distinction between Judaism and Christianity. Max I. Dimont, an enthusiastic Jew, says that the ultimate goal of Judaism is a universal brotherhood of mankind, a goal which is in complete accord with that of Christianity, which seeks to bring all people to a saving knowledge of the One God, the Ancient of Days, who called Abraham and promised that all people would be blessed through his descendents, the Jews.There is also the view point of the Christian dichotomy in relationship to the Jews. On the one hand the Jew is “cursed” and should suffer for his “rejection of the Messiah”. On the other hand the very existence of the Jews is an afffirmation of the Bible and Yehoshua bar Yosef. Jew also play a part in “the end of days” and the "second coming’.
God has the authority, both to install, and to remove. Chris, you keep dealing in fantasies rather than realities. Unable to prove the existence of any evil popes who taught evil doctrines, you are now moving on into the future and proposing the existence of evil popes not yet born. It would help us all if you’d deal in more concrete things that can actually be handled.Let’s suppose that we had a tyranical Pope today. (Just for the sake of discussion) What steps or procedures would have to be done to remove him? Who has the authority to get such a procedure going?
A complete misconception and misunderstanding of the Jews under Christian rule in Europe from the fall of Rome to the age of enlightenment. I don’t even know where to begin. Try eve-tal.com/JewishHistory.html not because its the best but because its concise, short and simple.The fact that Jews were confined to ghettos in many places means that the Christians and secular authorities knew where they were. My understanding is that they were literally, in many places, locked behind gates after dark. This would have made annihilation even more simple a thing to do.
My understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that Jews are prohibited from marrying outside the religion. Max I. Dimont wrote, with obvious pride, that the Jews were the first people in history to prohibit intermarriage, a fact which led to a certain amount of irritation among the non-Jews, as well as a source of constant problems among the Jews themselves because of disobedience to the prohibition.
Other than your reference to intermarriage (which is valid both from a Jewish and from a Catholic point of view) you, with all due respect, are under a total misconception concerning Jews and Christians in Europe and their societal relations or more accurately lack of social interaction. Your reference to ghettoes should have given you an inkling. There was no intermarriage period as it was both illegal and invalid.
Personally, from a non-academic point of view, I don’t see any other possible explanation.
For me, and I’m sure for most orthodox Christians in the modern day, there is no dichotomy between Jews and Christians. Catholics don’t fail to see our religious roots in Judaism, and we love those things. I’ve never been able to understand a point of view that has some sort of distinction between Judaism and Christianity. Max I. Dimont, an enthusiastic Jew, says that the ultimate goal of Judaism is a universal brotherhood of mankind, a goal which is in complete accord with that of Christianity, which seeks to bring all people to a saving knowledge of the One God, the Ancient of Days, who called Abraham and promised that all people would be blessed through his descendents, the Jews.
Am I forgiven, then?
The Doctrine of transubstantiation became official Church Doctrine on or about 1215 at the Fourth Lateran Council. At this same council, convened under Pope Innocent III, a rabid antisemite, the Church decreed that Jews living in Christians lands were required to wear a distintive badge on their clothing at all time.
…A decree of the Fourth Lateran Council required Jews to wear identifying dress. It was feared that Jews might infiltrate Christian groups and organizations without their religious identity being known, and there were instances in Spain where this can be proved to have actually happened, though probably it was rare. The strong sense of religious confession as part of good citizenship and national loyalty helped create a need for this ruling in the context of the time, however offensive in modern eyes. The Fourth Lateran Council pointed out that Jewish law then required the wearing of identifying symbols also, which was correct…
If you can’t name names, dates, and the details of events, then how do you know they happened? You say “it’s a historical fact that such things did occur.” Alrighty, then. If it’s historical fact, then you should be able to locate the facts somewhere in books. I’ll be here waiting for you to cite the “facts” as soon as you find them. Until then…I suppose you aren’t aware of the history bloodshed that went on in the period known as the dark ages. I may not be able to name the specific popes who ordered the killings and forced conversions, but it’s a historical fact that such things did occur.
Well, you could begin by being more specific as to what I’ve got wrong. I read most of the article you linked to, and you are correct, it is simplistic beyond all hope. I don’t see anything there that I didn’t already know, nor do I see anything there that contradicts anything I wrote in the post to which you replied. For instance, I wrote that Jews in many places were confined to ghettos and were locked in there after dark. The article confirms this.A complete misconception and misunderstanding of the Jews under Christian rule in Europe from the fall of Rome to the age of enlightenment. I don’t even know where to begin. Try eve-tal.com/JewishHistory.html not because its the best but because its concise, short and simple.
I’m not aware that I had claimed that there was intermarriage. Did I? What I said was that intermarriage was first prohibited by Jews, long before the Christian era, and I even gave one of my sources for that. (However, people being people, it seems highly unlikely that there was never ANY interaction between ANY Europeans and European Jews ANYWHERE at ANYTIME, but that is neither here nor there). Your article mentions that Jews were heavily involved in commerce in most places, which suggests a fairly complex level of interaction between peoples. It also needs reminding that the situation varied considerably from place to place, country to country, which the article confirms.Other than your reference to intermarriage (which is valid both from a Jewish and from a Catholic point of view) you, with all due respect, are under a total misconception concerning Jews and Christians in Europe and their societal relations or more accurately lack of social interaction. Your reference to ghettoes should have given you an inkling. There was no intermarriage period as it was both illegal and invalid.