Good passages in the Book of Mormon

[Jerusha]

… removed “plain and precious things” from the scriptures, and the other denominations were her “harlot daughters”. …, it will most likely raise your BP, at least a smidgeon.

While it was the Protestants who removed the Deuterocanon. The first time I read it, the revulsion was so bad it was a miracle I actually got through it… and I was skipping the preaching!!!

Be back later. Just downtime between appointments.

 

[theidler]

While it was the Protestants who removed the Deuterocanon. The first time I read it, the revulsion was so bad it was a miracle I actually got through it… and I was skipping the preaching!!!

Be back later. Just downtime between appointments.

Sounds like you’re formulating one heck of a set of objections - but don’t expect the Mormon response to be anything other than “But how does this affect your relationship with God and His Son, Jesus Christ? Have you actually prayed about the Book of Mormon?”

I remember when I asked some missionaries online concerning who the “gods” were in the Book of Abraham, they dodged all over the place. I might as well have asked the cat.

 

[theidler]

While we’re at it, here’s some other bits that will never be answered or explained either:

“The “Kinderhook Plates,” a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a “translation” of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an “ancient record,” and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.” source here

“Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and “seer stones.” Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered “great persecution” for telling people of his vision.” source here

 

[KathleenGee]

Jerusha is working on something deep, deep…

 

[theidler]

Jerusha is working on something deep, deep…

And unfortunately, no LDS members of the forum in sight to defend or debate these things…

 

[Jerusha]

I think that Mormon 8 pretty well sums it up.

8:19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord. 8:20 Behold what the scripture says – man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay. . 8:27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness. 8:28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches. 8:31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity. 8:32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. 8:33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled. 8:34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. 8:36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 8:38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies – because of the praise of the world? 8:39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? 8:40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

Masonic traditions, secrecy, pride, building of large and impressive (empty most of the time), empty rituals, pride, polygamy (with retention of polygamy-related doctrines), telling people what they want to hear, judgmental attitudes towards those who are not members, strong tie between tithes and getting temple reccommend, those who have more to tithe are forgiven more. Many divisions within, particularly those who believe in meso-American location for BoM vs. entire N and S America, or northeast N America, *** if it mattered because it is all fiction.

Still working on it.

 

[Ranp]

All the amazing Fathers of the Church. All the stunning Catholic theologians. All the writings of the Saints. The culmination of 2000 years of TRUTH.

And you choose to read made up stuff? Rocks in hats???

You need to have a serious conversation with your priest about this. It is NOT spiritually healthy.

I don’t care how nice it sounds.

Any truth you may find in there is Catholic Truth. It existed long LONG before the Mormons tried to call it their own. Go to the source. Go back home.

~Liza

Amen!

 

[Jerusha]

13:4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church, 13:5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. 13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. 13:7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots. 13:8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. 13:9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity13:4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church, 13:5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity. 13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it. 13:7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots. 13:8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church. 13:9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity

I Nephi. Harlots— polygamy. Again, the empty temples. The difficulty non-Mormons in Mormon dominated areas have in living their own faiths. The burden LDS have in activities in their church, doing everything asked of them-- cannot refuse a calling without negative consequences.

These are all good, for those who want to get ahead of me.

I Nephi 17:35
I Nephi 22: 23
II Nephi 1: 10-11
II Nephi 26: 20-22
II Nephi 28:12-19

Alma 1:19 -30
Alma 10:18-27
Alma 31: 11-14
Alma 32: 2-5
Alma 37:25-32
Alma 41: 14-15

Helaman 6: 22-40
Helaman 7: 4-6, 21
Helaman 8
Helaman 8: 3-6
Helaman 11: 24-27
Helaman 13:14-29

III Nephi 3: 7-11
III Nephi 21: 6

IV Nephi 25-34

Someone just linked this on another board. Very rational and well-considered.
patheos.com/blogs/faithforward/2012/01/mormon-reckoning/

 

[theidler]

I’ll say it again - the fact that such an obvious and fraudulent movement has to actually be disproved by going to such lengths is mind-blowing. Whatever happened to common sense or critical investigation? :banghead:

 

[Jerusha]

That is what I have asked myself many times. However, a thorough review of such an obviously fraudulent organization will reveal many triggers to nonbelief for the individual believer. Therefore, one needs a compendium of disproofs to use when being a Christian and Catholic witness.

 

[Jerusha]

And, as Soren just said on another thread, confronting LDS people on unethical LDS practices and teachings may be highly effective. Obviously, current and past practices are in conflict with this material which was borrowed from the Bible and placed in the BoM.

 

[theidler]

And, as Soren just said on another thread, confronting LDS people on unethical LDS practices and teachings may be highly effective. Obviously, current and past practices are in conflict with this material which was borrowed from the Bible and placed in the BoM.

It would be effective if they actually bothered to engage them.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

Then there is D & C 121, which links with my identification with Korihor. Holding people responsible for the sins of their ancestors. That is perhaps at the core of** my** difficulties with Mormonism.

So you reject the part of the 10 Commandments where God says that he visits the sins of the fathers upon the heads of the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him?
Oh, and of course you therefore reject the concept of ‘Original Sin’?
And anyway, as far as entitlement to the Priesthood is concerned (the D&C 121 reference you refer to), we use no criteria other than personal worthiness. Also re: Article of Faith 2: “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression”.

While we’re at it, here’s some other bits that will never be answered or explained either:

“The “Kinderhook Plates,” a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a “translation” of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an “ancient record,” and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.” source here

Actually, the evidence suggestst that Joseph Smith barely had time to see the Kinderhook Plates, let alone begin translation. Especially when you look at the timeline of events in his life following their ‘discovery’. It was published (in LDS press of the time, granted) that he was expected to complete a translation, but in reality one was never started.
See here for more info
jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#fooled

And, as Soren just said on another thread, confronting LDS people on unethical LDS practices and teachings may be highly effective. Obviously, current and past practices are in conflict with this material which was borrowed from the Bible and placed in the BoM.

I’m intrigued as to where and how you (collectively) believe Joseph Smith plagarised from the bible and other sources when evidence and accounts indicate he didn’t have access to many (if any) of the works and titles suggested, and never used another text, even noes, at any point during translation.
This probably needs a thread to itself…

 

[Jerusha]

So you reject the part of the 10 Commandments where God says that he visits the sins of the fathers upon the heads of the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him?

Hating God is a lot different from just sinning. Joseph Smith was faaar from being God. People still have the responsibility to look at family culture and history and understand how that affects their lives, good or bad. I am talking about those who condemn people BECAUSE of theIr ancestry-- and Lormons who exalt their own because of THEIR ancestry, when, in fact, those ancestors were sinners like everyone else. In the case of Brigham Young, larger than most.

Oh, and of course you therefore reject the concept of ‘Original Sin’?
".

The first chapters of Genesis are an allegory. Original sin is about the human tendency towards pride and wanting to do it OUR way wanting to become like gods – Joseph Smith is an excellent example.

And anyway, as far as entitlement to the Priesthood is concerned (the D&C 121 reference you refer to), we use no criteria other than personal worthiness. Also re: Article of Faith 2: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression

Pick and choose among the many conflicting teachings of your church. Articles of faith are often ignored in practice.

If you choose among the best teachings of your church, you may well make your way out, and maybe even to Catholicism. I will pray for you.

I’m intrigued as to where and how you (collectively) believe Joseph Smith plagarised from the bible and other sources when evidence and accounts indicate he didn’t have access to many (if any) of the works and titles suggested, and never used another text, even noes, at any point during translation.
This probably needs a thread to itself…

OH— puleeze. He didn’t do it by himself. He had help from many people. He was chosen for the job because he couldn’t do it by himself-- thus the Mormon claims of a miracle. I have a list of works from which they borrowed-- he had at least one helper who was HIGHLY literate, and that does not even get into the Spalding theory. The anti-Catholic diatribe that bothers Telstar was taken from another one of Ethan Smith’s works.

 

[Jerusha]

The Kinderhook Plates were nothing more than a practical joke that locals played on Joseph Smith and his followers. Apologists and critics waste way too much time on it.

And some of my ancestors were “locals.” Family records say that one (or two) moved to the area in 1837.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have pretty good native intuition, and I do not believe Smith wrote these passages…I do not believe he did…

And his practices of divinization and rocks and using those sticks to find water…going back to early American culture…to then switch over and write all that he claimed to write…don’t believe it.

Agree with post 29…where is the common sense and the great importance of witness and documentation with Joseph Smith?

People put more faith in him than in Christ.

 

[theidler]

The Kinderhook Plates were nothing more than a practical joke that locals played on Joseph Smith and his followers. Apologists and critics waste way too much time on it.

And some of my ancestors were “locals.” Family records say that one (or two) moved to the area in 1837.

Yes, but apparently Joseph Smith had begun translating them and saying they were divine and such. Hence, the use of them as an objection.

 

[Jerusha]

Only as a part of the whole of his “translations.” The BoM, the Egyptian Papyri, and there was also a Greek Psalter. I think there is a pattern there.

 

[Mormon_Cultist]

OH— puleeze. He didn’t do it by himself. He had help from many people. He was chosen for the job because he couldn’t do it by himself-- thus the Mormon claims of a miracle. I have a list of works from which they borrowed-- he had at least one helper who was HIGHLY literate, and that does not even get into the Spalding theory. The anti-Catholic diatribe that bothers Telstar was taken from another one of Ethan Smith’s works.

Like I said, a thread to itself.
Your ‘list’ is all well and good, but you then have to work out how Joseph Smith would have gotten access to those materials during the period that the Book of Mormon was translated. The fact that two sources say similar things is little proof of plagiarism.

Yes, but apparently Joseph Smith had begun translating them and saying they were divine and such. Hence, the use of them as an objection.

Your source?
If Joseph Smith really did believe them, why did he never buy them? He had the opportunity, and had spent a lot on the Book of Abraham papyri when they came, why not these too? The answer, really, is that he showed very little interest in them at all.

 

[Jerusha]

I am sorry, but I see no need to bring up the subject again. You can find the answers to those questions by searching the archives here. No need to discuss it again, until you have gotten the proper background on the subject.

I certainly appreciate your civil and polite manner of discourse.