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ZAKI
Guest
Great source of information (islam-watch). How do you expect to change your views on islam when you receive information from anti-muslim websites? Very narrow-minded.
wasalam
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Great source of information (islam-watch). How do you expect to change your views on islam when you receive information from anti-muslim websites? Very narrow-minded.
wasalam
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Aydan
Guest
Well instead of calling people narrowminded why don’t you give us some sources from web sites that you consider credible to refute the claims in the article then? No calling people names instead of providing evidence against something you believe to be false now that’s narrowmindedness. Not only that we have also moved discussion on this issue over to another thread as well. if you want to continue this conversation please post over there.
ZAKI:
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I’d like to see more quoting from the Koran and hadith. I find it ironic that a lot (though not all) of the Muslims who are being the most active in debate here at CAF aren’t doing that.
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Agabriel
Guest
They usually try to quote the abrogated, or weaker, surahs. And when we catch them doing that - they get all upset. And then they use taqiyya/kithman types of responses to say that surahs are not abrogated. It is a neverending circle.
Even Allah/Muhammed himself was ok with abrogating surahs!
In chapter 2:106, the Qur’an plainly indicates,
“Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.”
“When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.” Surah 16:101
there is a number of articles on abrogation - here is one: Abrogation
They don’t like quoting the other surahs.
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Aydan
Guest
I can understand why they’re not doing that because they probably feel like we’re bashing their religion so it wouldn’t do any good anyway it kind of reminds me of how I feel when I’m around fundamentalist Christians no matter what you tell them about Catholicism or your loyalty to Jesus they don’t believe you and there’s nothing you can do to convince them. My Turkish friends and I really don’t discuss religion at all I respect the fact that their Muslim and they respect that I’m a Christian. When it’s time for prayer I do my prayers and they say their prayers. I understand the important role that Islam plays in the Turkish culture and I want to enjoy the Turkish culture rather than focus on the religious differences. The way I see it if my belief in Jesus as my savior is not strong enough to withstand being around other religions than I’m not a good Christian in the first place.
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Hadi
Guest
here are some quotations
“Do not act wickedly on earth by spreading coruption” (2:60)
“If anyone killed a human being it shall be as though he had killed all mankind;whereas if anyone saved a life it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind” (5:32)
“Do not take any human being’s life- the life which God had declared saved” (6:151)
“Every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another is doing good works.” (2:62)
“Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” (7:199)
Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none save Him, and show kindness to your parents. If one or both of them attain old age with thee, say not ‘Fie’ unto them or repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word." (17:23-24)
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ZAKI
Guest
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ZAKI
Guest
I recommend you stop trying, the verses you have quoted disagree with you and are anti-abrogation. Just look at the surah 16:101 that you yourself have quoted-the verse is saying that you can attempt to substitute one revelation however Allah knows best what he reveals.They usually try to quote the abrogated, or weaker, surahs. And when we catch them doing that - they get all upset. And then they use taqiyya/kithman types of responses to say that surahs are not abrogated. It is a neverending circle.
Even Allah/Muhammed himself was ok with abrogating surahs!
In chapter 2:106, the Qur’an plainly indicates,
“Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.”
“When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, “Thou art but a forger”: but most of them understand not.” Surah 16:101
there is a number of articles on abrogation - here is one: Abrogation
They don’t like quoting the other surahs.
wasalam
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ZAKI
Guest
Next verse after that 16:102
Say the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy lord. In truth, in order to strengthen those who believe and as a Guide. And Glad tidings to the muslims.
Also notice the note that yusuf ali has in his translation: The doctrine of progressive relevation from age to age and time to time does not mean that God’s fundamental law changes. It is not fair to charge a prophet of Allah with forgery because the message, as revealed to him, is in different form from that revealed before, when the core of the truth is the same, for it comes from God.
wasalam
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Aydan
Guest
Subhanallah means glory to God and wasalam means and peace. Muslims if you’re going to use Arabic words please provide translations for the benefit of all people here.
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Darryl1958
Guest
I really can’t think of anything I admire about Islam.
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planten
Guest
Originally Posted by dolphinlove
That is because you believe Jesus to be a cursed person, having died on the cross. We Muslims do not believe that jesus died on the cross. He was not killed by his enemies.
Then you had another utilisation of the death on the cross. That was from Paul (Saul) too. That Jesus blood was useful to atone the sins of others. Quite a strange way to do away with the sins of sinners. Jesus being punished for the sins of the sinners. Who would believe that?
Because you people are allergic about all the good points of christianity and you will say that you want to discuss the (topic) good points of Islam only. But I hope there is no harm in bringing up some of the good points of Christianity. Thanks to you DiL for caring for Islam.
Be sure that we Muslims want all of you to be a good Christian. We want to make your faith stronger on the real teachings of Jesus. May you progress and become a good follower of Jesus.**
**Yes DiL, there is no need for you to love Islam. There is no need for you to Love any one. You are yearning for your love for Jesus. Your love for Jesus will still be less the Muslims have for Jesus. The reason is that your love for Jesus is fake. Your love is really more for Saul of Tarsus. Not for Jesus.
That is because you believe Jesus to be a cursed person, having died on the cross. We Muslims do not believe that jesus died on the cross. He was not killed by his enemies.
Then you had another utilisation of the death on the cross. That was from Paul (Saul) too. That Jesus blood was useful to atone the sins of others. Quite a strange way to do away with the sins of sinners. Jesus being punished for the sins of the sinners. Who would believe that?
Because you people are allergic about all the good points of christianity and you will say that you want to discuss the (topic) good points of Islam only. But I hope there is no harm in bringing up some of the good points of Christianity. Thanks to you DiL for caring for Islam.
Be sure that we Muslims want all of you to be a good Christian. We want to make your faith stronger on the real teachings of Jesus. May you progress and become a good follower of Jesus.**
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Aydan
Guest
excuse me planten none of us are allergic to Islam have you ever noticed that I am a** Turkish yes that’s right Turkish** Catholic. I’ll be sure to let my Turkish friends** who are Muslims** know that you said that.
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planten
Guest
** Agabriel is anxious and busy trying to prove abrogation in the Quran. But to no avail. There was a link too. It was all false and only pointed two verses which could be used to in favor of abrogation. But Agabiel could not present any verse of the Quran which could be considered abrogated.
I had proved that the church has abrogated all the laws and commandments of the bibleOT. That abrogation and doing away with the entire Mosaic law is well known to every one. Would that not be abrogation in toto?? Surely it is. There is no such thing in the Quran.
But Quran did abrogate some verses of the BibleNT which stated that Jesus died on the cross, and which stated that Jesus was a god or son of God. Quran also abrogated the theory of three gods in One, i.e. Trinity, which was not found in the bible but formulated by the church itself.
Now I take up one verse only of the Quran which is used to prove the abrogation. Please see below:
The real translation of this verse 2:106 is as follows:
"WE do not abrogate any verse (sign)
Nor do We make it to be forgotten
(But) We bring a better one in its place,
Or one similar (equal) to it."
Tell me where it says that Allah abrogates any verse of the Quran?. He says “We do not abrogate any verse…”. There is nothing about the verse that it is the verse of the Quran. There are verses in the BibleNT and OT too. They are also earlier verses which had been revealed before. Could they not be abrogated or replaced with better ones by the verses of the Quran? They can be, and we have seen that many verses of the Quran have overtaken the verses of the bible and made them null and void. But Quran let some verses of the bible stand as they are without change. How about that please??
I had proved that the church has abrogated all the laws and commandments of the bibleOT. That abrogation and doing away with the entire Mosaic law is well known to every one. Would that not be abrogation in toto?? Surely it is. There is no such thing in the Quran.
But Quran did abrogate some verses of the BibleNT which stated that Jesus died on the cross, and which stated that Jesus was a god or son of God. Quran also abrogated the theory of three gods in One, i.e. Trinity, which was not found in the bible but formulated by the church itself.
Now I take up one verse only of the Quran which is used to prove the abrogation. Please see below:
**."
The real translation of this verse 2:106 is as follows:
"WE do not abrogate any verse (sign)
Nor do We make it to be forgotten
(But) We bring a better one in its place,
Or one similar (equal) to it."
Tell me where it says that Allah abrogates any verse of the Quran?. He says “We do not abrogate any verse…”. There is nothing about the verse that it is the verse of the Quran. There are verses in the BibleNT and OT too. They are also earlier verses which had been revealed before. Could they not be abrogated or replaced with better ones by the verses of the Quran? They can be, and we have seen that many verses of the Quran have overtaken the verses of the bible and made them null and void. But Quran let some verses of the bible stand as they are without change. How about that please??
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ZAKI
Guest
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Hadi
Guest
Planten , I agree with you 
The principle laid down in this passage - relating to the supersession of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur’an - has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah (“message”) occurring in this, context is also used to denote a “verse;” of the Qur’an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses of the Qur’an have been “abrogated” by God’s command before the revelation of the Qur’an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion-which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs of his manuscript. deleting one passage and replacing it with another-there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever, declared a verse of the Qur’an to have been “abrogated”. At the root of the so-called “doctrine of abrogation” may lie the inability of some of the early commentators to reconcile one Qur’anic passage with another: a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question• had been “abrogated”. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the “doctrine of abrogation” as to which, and how many, Qur’an-verses have been affected by it; and, furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context of the Qur’an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contained in it. In short, the “doctrine of abrogation” has no basis whatever in historical fact, and must be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur’anic passage disappears -immediately if the term ayah is understood, correctly, as “message”, and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible: for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to any part of the Qur’an itself.
(source :Asad’s tafseer)
The principle laid down in this passage - relating to the supersession of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur’an - has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah (“message”) occurring in this, context is also used to denote a “verse;” of the Qur’an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses of the Qur’an have been “abrogated” by God’s command before the revelation of the Qur’an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion-which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs of his manuscript. deleting one passage and replacing it with another-there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever, declared a verse of the Qur’an to have been “abrogated”. At the root of the so-called “doctrine of abrogation” may lie the inability of some of the early commentators to reconcile one Qur’anic passage with another: a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question• had been “abrogated”. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the “doctrine of abrogation” as to which, and how many, Qur’an-verses have been affected by it; and, furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context of the Qur’an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contained in it. In short, the “doctrine of abrogation” has no basis whatever in historical fact, and must be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur’anic passage disappears -immediately if the term ayah is understood, correctly, as “message”, and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible: for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to any part of the Qur’an itself.
(source :Asad’s tafseer)
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Aydan
Guest
you’re welcome one little correction Aydan is a Turkish name for females.
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ZAKI
Guest
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elwill
Guest
what about giving us list of abrogated surahs first ? or giving us the evidence for your allegations , when you catching us using what you called abrogated verses .
by the way , are these verses you are talking about be abrogated by your own decesion or by muslims scholars ? ( please don’t just bring for us the concept as a proof , we want your proofs that the verses we using exactly is the abrogated ones)
after all , i will write the beliefs of muslims in this issue for whoever seek true knowldge .
Abrogation in Arabic means Naskh, which means obliteration. The cases of abrogation occur only in laws, and not beliefs or change of beliefs.
Christians have always used abrogation against the Quran, an obvious misunderstanding by them and lack of understanding on the Islamic view point of abrogation.
The Quran was revealed in a period of 23 years, it was revealed in stages .
However the Quran was not sent at once because it would have been too much to take in at once. It would have been to hard to follow and just leave your ways and the way you lived and change in an instance. That is human nature and God knows best.
For example, the Qur’an commands one not to pray when drunk. Since the Qur’an was revealed gradually over a period of twenty three years, a later verse forbade intoxicants. But this later verse does not cancel the earlier one.
So now it has become clear to Muslims not to approach their prayers while they were drunk, and their are 5 prayers, in the early morning, in the early afternoon, in mid afternoon, and in the evening, and one at night. So basically that in itself would have made it very difficult for the Muslims to drink, and if they did it would have to be very minimum as to prevent drunkenness, so this would eventually lead to several Muslims stop drinking as to the inconvenience and difficulty it presented. Then finally the Quran revealed that alcohol is completely forbidden to drink once the Muslims had gotten used to drinking little of it or completely abstaining from it:
So that is a basic way of how abrogation works. The fact is Allah revealed things in stages. It would have been to hard for the people to give up their alcohol ways at once unless you weren’t that into it, and the people back then were very into drinking alcohol. So hence a failing rule would be if God would reveal that alcohol is forbidden at once rather than in stages. You cannot abandon something you like or addicted to at once, it takes time. So that just shows how simple abrogation is
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planten
Guest
**
Hadi, that was very good of you to post the commentary from Asad. Is that Asad not Leopold Weiss, the Polish Jew who wrote the commentary of the Quran?. He iwas a very capable person who translated the word “Wali” as ally or guardian instead of as “friend”. I hope he is same person. May Allah bless his soul and raise his ranks in the hereafter. Ameen.
This Abrogation is a false case. Many people had about 500 abrogated verses of the Quran and other 500 abrogator verses. Any verse they could not understand or reconcile, they marked it as abrogated.
Later capable Scholars came up and found the right explanation of the verses. So the number of abrogated verses was much reduced. During the time of Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (about 12th century Hijri), there were only five verses which were left and considered as abrogated, or unexplained.
The same five have been well understood and there is none to be considered as abrogated now.
The mistaken religious leaders built up quite a big theory on the subject of abrogation. They had various principles of abrogation such as:
Thanks to you again Hadi for bringing down this false activity of the christians about abrogation of verses of Quran.
Another important point about verse 2:106 is that the entire passage around verse 2:106 i.e. verse 2:105 and verse 2:107, 108 , 109 all refer to the people of the book. So the abrogation seems to point to the earlier scriptures and not within Quran.
**
Hadi, that was very good of you to post the commentary from Asad. Is that Asad not Leopold Weiss, the Polish Jew who wrote the commentary of the Quran?. He iwas a very capable person who translated the word “Wali” as ally or guardian instead of as “friend”. I hope he is same person. May Allah bless his soul and raise his ranks in the hereafter. Ameen.
This Abrogation is a false case. Many people had about 500 abrogated verses of the Quran and other 500 abrogator verses. Any verse they could not understand or reconcile, they marked it as abrogated.
Later capable Scholars came up and found the right explanation of the verses. So the number of abrogated verses was much reduced. During the time of Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (about 12th century Hijri), there were only five verses which were left and considered as abrogated, or unexplained.
The same five have been well understood and there is none to be considered as abrogated now.
The mistaken religious leaders built up quite a big theory on the subject of abrogation. They had various principles of abrogation such as:
- Abrogation of a verse by another verse of the Quran.
- Abrogation in application only and not in recting.
- Abrogation of the verse by a hadith (God Forbids).
Thanks to you again Hadi for bringing down this false activity of the christians about abrogation of verses of Quran.
Another important point about verse 2:106 is that the entire passage around verse 2:106 i.e. verse 2:105 and verse 2:107, 108 , 109 all refer to the people of the book. So the abrogation seems to point to the earlier scriptures and not within Quran.
**
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