good points of islam

[planten]

I thought it was the “royal” we, as when Queen Victoria famously said “We are not amused.” That is, it was Allah speaking directly to humankind.

I have a problem with abrogation also. If the Qur’an existed before time began, and its author is an omniscient and omnipotent being, why on earth wouldn’t it be in finished form when it was delivered to the Prophet?

**Thanks Tomarin for solving the first problem about the word “We.” You are perfectly right.

About abrogation, do you mean that Allah had the whole book with Himself and He should have delivered it all complete in One Go?. I hope that is not your intention. Quran was revealed piece by piece over a period of 23 years. It was all written down as it was revealed. It was also memorised and recited in five daily prayers.

Just remember that there is no abrogation of any verse of the Quran. The article that the catholics are circulating is written by an anti_Muslim.**

 

[planten]

Verses like the ones below make me feel good. Because unlike you, when I was a christian-I didn’t used to search through the internet to find anti-islamist websites which twisted the Quran to make it seem terrible and all about violence and then pretended that I knew everything about the Quran-I sat down and read the Quran fully myself.

** Very good Zaki. You have done well to go direct to the fountain of life. May Allah Bless you and reward you for your honesty. Heart is at the center of reception. May I tell you that revelations and true dreams (visions) come only to a clean shining heart. There they are reflected without distortion.

Your case is easy to understand. One sincerely goes out in search of Truth. He/She comes across some Truth in life. Then it is to be seen what that person do that Truth. If the person accepts it then He/She is given more of that Truth.

If He/she rejects that Truth then no more is given. That is a natural spiritual law.
**

“Do not act wickedly on earth by spreading corruption” (2:60)

“If anyone killed a human being it shall be as though he had killed all mankind;whereas if anyone saved a life it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind” (5:32)

“Do not take any human being’s life- the life which God had declared saved” (6:151)

“Every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another is doing good works.” (2:62)

“Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” (7:199)

Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none save Him, and show kindness to your parents. If one or both of them attain old age with thee, say not ‘Fie’ unto them or repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word." (17:23-24)

Thanks for posting those verses from the Quran.

What is wrong with these verses? What are you going to do now? Give me some out of context verses from the Quran? Give me an opinion from someone who hates islam?

wasalam

Do not worry what they might do. Nothing is going to harm you. You are victorious.

 

[Agabriel]

** Very good Zaki. You have done well to go direct to the fountain of life. May Allah Bless you and reward you for your honesty. Heart is at the center of reception. May I tell you that revelations and true dreams (visions) come only to a clean shining heart. There they are reflected without distortion.

Your case is easy to understand. One sincerely goes out in search of Truth. He/She comes across some Truth in life. Then it is to be seen what that person do that Truth. If the person accepts it then He/She is given more of that Truth.

If He/she rejects that Truth then no more is given. That is a natural spiritual law.
**

Thanks for posting those verses from the Quran.

Do not worry what they might do. Nothing is going to harm you. You are victorious.

Just because you chose not to acknowledge the violence in the Quran, doesn’t make them disappear. You worry more about what we write than what your own do when they follow the violence.

the Truth in Islam: violence, but make sure to say the other stuff to fool them. Don’t take the Quran to foreign countries (it seems, once again, Allah wasn’t too smart - he didn’t even know about the internet!) so the infidels won’t know what the true agenda of Islam is.

Do you know why the violence never disappears in the countries that are a majority of Muslim?

#1. Allah/Muhammed never understood human behavior. One cannot just ‘turn off’ the blood lust, so it continues for many Muslims to satisfy their blood lust and obligation to dominate by killing the less “pure”.

('Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat)

“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother, me and my brother against our father, my family against our cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe, the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.” Leon Uris, The Haj

A question: how do you trust your Allah? How do you know that your ‘good deed’ was accepted, and your scales are balanced for the day?

 

[elwill]

How could I be embarrassed that you need me to read to you? That one escapes me.

well let me ask you my question again
you said

**But, back to abrogation - was it that Allah would forget what he said previously? Not a very smart God if you ask me. **

my question was
sorry i just didn’t understand this one , can you clarify for me how allah forgot and which verses are you talking about ?
(i have no problem if you wanna to quote from your article , but you are the one who will be responsible for every word you will quote ) so if you ready for the discussion then take care from every word you will quote from the article , because i’m really sure that it will be very easy to smash these lies down

About asking questions in Islam:
“O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (Surah 5:101-102).

what is the meaning of that “which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble”
which kind of questions which quran talking about ?
(surely i know what the quran says but you can say that i just test your knowledge and your honest )

“The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions …so do not try to probe into such things.” (The Meaning of the Qur’an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)

give me this hadeeth ( and quote it complete please )

Muhammad said: “Allah has hated you for asking too many questions.”

“The Prophet then got angry and his cheeks and face became red.”
Bukhari’s Hadith

where is this ahadeeth , please quote the entire hadeeth to realize the situation .
why he got angry , and what was the question which made him angry

don’t convince me that muslims never asked mohammed (pbuh) about islam , the biography of the prophet is full of questions from the muslims to mohammed (pbuh) about thier religion which make your view as always . nonsense

"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92) The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) “Allah has hated you…[for] asking too many questions.” (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari’s Hadith commenting on Muhammad’s reaction to hostile questioners.)

again you cut what you want from ahadeeth and ignoring part of it !!!

what is the problem from quoting the entire ahadeeth ?

Basically, actions speak louder than words! If Islam is such an open religion, why are Christians harassed and murdered in all countries where Muslims are in control of the civil governments.

christians are murdered in ****all countries **where muslims are in control **!!! , thank you Agabriel , you just proofed for me how rational you are

 

[ZAKI]

Just because you chose not to acknowledge the violence in the Quran, doesn’t make them disappear. You worry more about what we write than what your own do when they follow the violence.

the Truth in Islam: violence, but make sure to say the other stuff to fool them. Don’t take the Quran to foreign countries (it seems, once again, Allah wasn’t too smart - he didn’t even know about the internet!) so the infidels won’t know what the true agenda of Islam is.

Every religious book has some violence and every religious book has self-defense, but if you were to buy the Quran FROM THE FOREIGN COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN (where do you live?)-you will see that the issue of violence and self-defense are but one issue of many issues in the Quran. However, if you want to look at the issue of violence and ONLY the issue of violence then very well-you will never be guided. Keep doing that and keep twisting the verses that you get off the internet from anti-muslim websites (or it could be that the anti-muslim websites have already twisted the verses to make them seem negative and you being the sort that you are-instantly believe them because that is precisely what you are looking).

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

** Very good Zaki. You have done well to go direct to the fountain of life. May Allah Bless you and reward you for your honesty. Heart is at the center of reception. May I tell you that revelations and true dreams (visions) come only to a clean shining heart. There they are reflected without distortion.

Your case is easy to understand. One sincerely goes out in search of Truth. He/She comes across some Truth in life. Then it is to be seen what that person do that Truth. If the person accepts it then He/She is given more of that Truth.

If He/she rejects that Truth then no more is given. That is a natural spiritual law.
**

Thanks for posting those verses from the Quran.

Do not worry what they might do. Nothing is going to harm you. You are victorious.

Jazakallah khair brother. May Allah bless you as well.

wasalam

 

[elwill]

Brother please don’t worry, Agabriel does this often. He quotes a verse from the Quran and twists it to make it sound negative. He expects us not to be bothered and gets a pat on the back from his christian comrades, however when a muslim does expose his twisted verses-he sort of disappears and the post is ignored by the rest of the christians on here and they move on quickly to insult another aspect of islam which has already been explained to them before…and thus the cycle of life on the non-catholic religions section on this catholic forum continues.

wasalam

i prefer to keep this hadeeth in front of my head through my discussions
mohamed (pbuh) said
“If you hear about your brother something of which you disapprove, seek from one to seventy excuses for him. If you cannot find any, convince yourselves that it is an excuse you do not know

so i’m trying to convince myself that he was misinformed about islam so that he attacks it , this way make me feel better and more balanced in my discussions

God reward you with the best , Zaki

 

[tomarin]

About abrogation, do you mean that Allah had the whole book with Himself and He should have delivered it all complete in One Go?. I hope that is not your intention. Quran was revealed piece by piece over a period of 23 years. It was all written down as it was revealed. It was also memorised and recited in five daily prayers.

No, I’m referring to the notion that the Qur’an is eternal and uncreated. That is, that it existed before it was sent down.

Just remember that there is no abrogation of any verse of the Quran. The article that the catholics are circulating is written by an anti_Muslim.

I thought abrogation was a legitimate Muslim belief but that there was some disagreement among scholars about which verses had been abrogated. (However, I’m aware that the idea is often abused on polemical websites and such.)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Just remember that there is no abrogation of any verse of the Quran.

Yes, you keep saying that, but all you can present as evidence is a silly conspiracy theory about a monk which you cite no evidence for.

Every religious book has some violence and every religious book has self-defense, but if you were to buy the Quran FROM THE FOREIGN COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN (where do you live?)-you will see that the issue of violence and self-defense are but one issue of many issues in the Quran. However, if you want to look at the issue of violence and ONLY the issue of violence then very well-you will never be guided. Keep doing that and keep twisting the verses that you get off the internet from anti-muslim websites (or it could be that the anti-muslim websites have already twisted the verses to make them seem negative and you being the sort that you are-instantly believe them because that is precisely what you are looking).

wasalam

First, I must warn my Muslim friends that the non-sequitor logical fallacy is not going to work. If (for the sake of example) the Rig Veda was a hundred times more violent than the Koran, it would still have no relevance for a topic that focuses solely on the Koran. It also inadvertently admits the other person’s point - by saying, “The Koran is violent? Well so are other holy books!”, you’re basically telling the person, “I admit the Koran is violent, but that’s OK.”

Now, while I admit that some of my Christian peers seem a bit anxious to find any nook and cranny to fit in another criticism of Islam, some criticism is still valid. For example, the violence found in the Koran is not always self-defense, as evident by this passage:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29]

This was one of the last verses revealed in the Koran, after Mohammad had taken Mecca. There is no mention of self-defense, but attacking those who do not believe until they pay a tax and “feel themselves subdued.” Remember that I posted this passage before, and that I pointed out that Pickthal translates “subdued” as “being brought low,” and Shakir translates it as “in a state of subjection.” This is not only violence but oppression of other faiths. The full context of Surat 9 makes it clear this is not a “metaphorical war,” like fighting against sin, but a war against unbelievers. This isn’t an anti-Muslim website talking - this is the Koran itself.

Incidentally, remember our discussion about apostasy, and how the early Muslims killed those Muslims who left Islam? That’s in the Koran too.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks; [S. 4:89]

The “renegades” were those Muslims who had converted to Islam and then left. This is evident in the hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah’s Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief)…[Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 483]

…Ibn Abbas added, “By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, the following was his will (Prophet’s will) to his followers:–It is incumbent upon those who are present to convey this information to those who are absent Beware don’t renegade (as) disbelievers (turn into infidels)…” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 795]

Again, these aren’t anti-Muslim sources I’m using - these are directly from Muslim sources.

 

[tomarin]

First, I must warn my Muslim friends that the non-sequitor logical fallacy is not going to work. If (for the sake of example) the Rig Veda was a hundred times more violent than the Koran, it would still have no relevance for a topic that focuses solely on the Koran. It also inadvertently admits the other person’s point - by saying, “The Koran is violent? Well so are other holy books!”, you’re basically telling the person, “I admit the Koran is violent, but that’s OK.”

I’m not sure that every instance of bringing other religions’ scriptures into the discussion is a tu quoque, though. I think that sometimes it is an attempt to point out a double standard, which is also a logical fallacy.

There are definitely violent passages in the Qur’an but there are also violent passages in the Old Testament (the last line of Psalm 137 praises anyone who dashes Babylonian infants’ heads against a rock – that’s pretty sick stuff). There may be more of that in the Qur’an but it’s a difference in quantity, not kind. I think it’s disingenous to go on and on about the violence in the Qur’an without taking into account our own scripture’s violence.

I agree with you that there are things in the Qur’an that are indefensible by today’s modern standards (the verse about beating your wife when she gets out of line comes to mind). But that’s because the Qur’an, like the Bible and the Torah, are not products of the modern world but of a premodern one. Each ancient religion has to try to harmonize the plain meaning of the objectionable parts of their scriptures with the modern values that have emerged as universal norms. Islam is not alone in this.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I’m not sure that every instance of bringing other religions’ scriptures into the discussion is a tu quoque, though. I think that sometimes it is an attempt to point out a double standard, which is also a logical fallacy.

There are definitely violent passages in the Qur’an but there are also violent passages in the Old Testament (the last line of Psalm 137 praises anyone who dashes Babylonian infants’ heads against a rock – that’s pretty sick stuff). There may be more of that in the Qur’an but it’s a difference in quantity, not kind. I think it’s disingenous to go on and on about the violence in the Qur’an without taking into account our own scripture’s violence.

If the discussion were on which religion is the most violent it would certainly be all right to start comparing, however, as it stands, the discussion is on the Koran and Islam in general. There are Jews, atheists and other non-Christians on this forum who are allowed to join in, each with their own beliefs and scripture. Attacking the Bible in front of an atheist will only make the atheist say, “Well yeah I don’t believe in the Bible either, but I’m talking about the Koran here.” Hence why I stress avoiding anything similar to a non-sequitor.

I agree with you that there are things in the Qur’an that are indefensible by today’s modern standards (the verse about beating your wife when she gets out of line comes to mind). But that’s because the Qur’an, like the Bible and the Torah, are not products of the modern world but of a premodern one. Each ancient religion has to try to harmonize the plain meaning of the objectionable parts of their scriptures with the modern values that have emerged as universal norms. Islam is not alone in this.

I have heard this argument before, but it only works on a secular level, because it begs to question…is God’s word temporary? Does God’s word have an expiration date? Because remember, to a Muslim the Koran is the final revelation and is the literal word of God being spoken to mankind. If it’s not good any more, or any part of it is a “premodern” concept, then does that mean there needs to be another revelation for our modern world? Also, when you study the actions of those who founded Islam - especially the prophet Mohammad himself - and those actions are simply antique beliefs, then why hold the status of those men so highly?

God is eternal - if a person believes that they themselves have to “update” God…well, I cringe at the idea of that theology.

 

[tomarin]

I have heard this argument before, but it only works on a secular level, because it begs to question…is God’s word temporary? Does God’s word have an expiration date? Because remember, to a Muslim the Koran is the final revelation and is the literal word of God being spoken to mankind. If it’s not good any more, or any part of it is a “premodern” concept, then does that mean there needs to be another revelation for our modern world? Also, when you study the actions of those who founded Islam - especially the prophet Mohammad himself - and those actions are simply antique beliefs, then why hold the status of those men so highly?

God is eternal - if a person believes that they themselves have to “update” God…well, I cringe at the idea of that theology.

I don’t want to update God nor do I see a need to. I’m just pointing out that as cultural understandings change so do interpretations of religious doctrine. Even Muslims (the self-aware ones at least) believe that the Qur’an is both universal and a product of its time, since it’s useless to deny that it reflects certain realities of life in 7th-century Arabia. In the same way, don’t we point to things that Jesus said or did which need to be culturally contextualized yet which point to a higher truth? For example, it’s hard for a modern person to understand the concept of Christ’s sacrifice without knowing something about the role of animal sacrifices in the pagan religions of antiquity and also pre-rabbinical Judaism.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I don’t want to update God nor do I see a need to. I’m just pointing out that as cultural understandings change so do interpretations of religious doctrine. Even Muslims (the self-aware ones at least) believe that the Qur’an is both universal and a product of its time, since it’s useless to deny that it reflects certain realities of life in 7th-century Arabia. In the same way, don’t we point to things that Jesus said or did which need to be culturally contextualized yet which point to a higher truth? For example, it’s hard for a modern person to understand the concept of Christ’s sacrifice without knowing something about the role of animal sacrifices in the pagan religions of antiquity and also pre-rabbinical Judaism.

I agree that it’s important to understand the historical context of where people came from. I believe it’s also important to know how the first few generations of a religion believed, since that shows one of the purest examples of the faith. That’s why I quote sahih hadith. Nevertheless, historical context does not excuse the violence of the Koran or hadith. Christ’s earthly ministry was 600 years before Mohammad and during it He taught love.

 

[Agabriel]

well let me ask you my question again
you said

**But, back to abrogation - was it that Allah would forget what he said previously? Not a very smart God if you ask me. **

my question was
sorry i just didn’t understand this one , can you clarify for me how allah forgot and which verses are you talking about ?
(i have no problem if you wanna to quote from your article , but you are the one who will be responsible for every word you will quote ) so if you ready for the discussion then take care from every word you will quote from the article , because i’m really sure that it will be very easy to smash these lies down

what is the meaning of that “which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble”
which kind of questions which quran talking about ?
(surely i know what the quran says but you can say that i just test your knowledge and your honest )

give me this hadeeth ( and quote it complete please )

where is this ahadeeth , please quote the entire hadeeth to realize the situation .
why he got angry , and what was the question which made him angry

don’t convince me that muslims never asked mohammed (pbuh) about islam , the biography of the prophet is full of questions from the muslims to mohammed (pbuh) about thier religion which make your view as always . nonsense

again you cut what you want from ahadeeth and ignoring part of it !!!

what is the problem from quoting the entire ahadeeth ?

christians are murdered in ****all countries ****where muslims are in control !!! , thank you Agabriel , you just proofed for me how rational you are

Of course I am responsible for quoting what I quote. As you are. If one deceives another then it is that person who will answer to that deception.

As for rational vs what is happening in Muslim majority countries - it is in the news. Persecution of Christians in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, yemen, countries in Africa, the Gaza, Egypt, Lebanon, the Philippines is ongoing. The only thing is that Muslims don’t call it persecution because it is just another day in the world of Islam.

We are seeing now how a Muslim majority country is not at peace. Islam gives nothing but more chaos and hatred to the world. Look at Iran.

Genocide in Sudan of Christians by Muslims and it talks about other violence done by Muslims worldwide

Philippino Christians target for Muslims in Philippines

Here is one of your ‘misunderstanders of Islam’ telling us that violent jihad is indeed a part of Islam. Go tell him to stop misunderstanding Islam why don’t you?!
Here we have in a country, mine, that allows Muslims all the freedoms and what do they do time and again - declare jihad against us.

NY Muslims calling for attack on non-Muslims

As for you being all upset of your hadith, I don’t want to do as you direct. It is just a waste of my time and bits and bytes. You go look it up if you want it.

 

[Agabriel]

This is a little off topic, but one concerning what I answered to in the post back to elwill. It is about deception and sin.

It is the Warning of Garabandal

Those who are evil will no longer be able to hide behind excuses for their sins; they will no longer be able to half-deceive themselves; they will know full well that what they are doing is evil. People often lie to themselves, telling themselves that what they are doing is right, when they know in their heart of hearts that it is wrong. But at the Warning, these lies will be exposed; there will be no place to hide from the truths of one’s conscience at the time of the Warning.

It comes from a website talking about the Secret of Medjugorje and Garabandal Revealed.

The thing that appeared to Muhammed was a deceiver. It was something that only offered carnal pleasures to a person. It couldn’t even promise anything other than sex and gluttony in its heaven. Even their Prophet couldn’t handle anyone questioning him and whatever carnal pleasure he wanted he got just by using Allah as the vehicle to get it. And we saw a deadening of the senses of the common man just accepting it, just following him and waging the battles to obtain that fleeting wealth on this earth, fighting and killing others for those carnal pleasures in some sort of afterlife that they were promised.

Nothing to challenge the mind, the soul, in all of it. And it still exists because of terror.

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

(the hypocrites are Muslims that Muhammed/Allah don’t like because they won’t fight for the Cause)
Qur’an:33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering.”

And take note, leaving Islam is compared to sedition. Not a religious thing at all.

 

[swplan76]

This is a little off topic, but one concerning what I answered to in the post back to elwill. It is about deception and sin.

It is the Warning of Garabandal

It comes from a website talking about the Secret of Medjugorje and Garabandal Revealed.

The thing that appeared to Muhammed was a deceiver. It was something that only offered carnal pleasures to a person. It couldn’t even promise anything other than sex and gluttony in its heaven. Even their Prophet couldn’t handle anyone questioning him and whatever carnal pleasure he wanted he got just by using Allah as the vehicle to get it. And we saw a deadening of the senses of the common man just accepting it, just following him and waging the battles to obtain that fleeting wealth on this earth, fighting and killing others for those carnal pleasures in some sort of afterlife that they were promised.

Nothing to challenge the mind, the soul, in all of it. And it still exists because of terror.

Qur’an:8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

(the hypocrites are Muslims that Muhammed/Allah don’t like because they won’t fight for the Cause)
Qur’an:33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering.”

And take note, leaving Islam is compared to sedition. Not a religious thing at all.

You have hammer the nail on the head.

Islam is a religion that is caught up in the material things of life. The vision of the afterlife, the clothes and food, shariah law, Islam invades a person’s life and eats away at the surface of who they are. They begin to talk like Muslims. They begin to eat like Muslims. They begin to dress like Muslims. They appear very religious and indeed they are… but the appearance of religious behavior and ritual goes only an inch beneath the surface.

I have a friend who converted to Christianity. I had a problem with a store owner over a price - I was ripped off. My friend asked after I told him about it, “Isn’t that store run by Muslims?” “Yes,” I responded. “They won’t help you. Muslims won’t even help each other. He got away with ripping you off and really it comes down to one person’s word over another’s. There isn’t anything you will be able to say that will convince Him to be forthright.” I didn’t believe my friend at first. I went to the store and explained how I had been taken advantage of (in very friendly words) and the man refused to refund me the money he had wrongly taken. I talked with him for a long time - I didn’t want to believe that my friend was right. In the end the man refused.

Ethics, common courtesy, mercy, these ideas were not part of the man’s mindset.

Islam changes the appearance of people, but it doesn’t change their hearts. It may provide them with order if they are living a life of chaos, but they are still running around chasing after all the things of life, with no concern for the bigger picture - chasing after the things of life only thinking about what they want. For Muslims heaven after all is a gluttonous orgy - a selfish me-fest.

All the references on this site make it pretty clear how crooked Islam is… If the Qur’an and the Hadiths aren’t enough to open our eyes, what will?

 

[Agabriel]

You have hammer the nail on the head.

Islam is a religion that is caught up in the material things of life. The vision of the afterlife, the clothes and food, shariah law, Islam invades a person’s life and eats away at the surface of who they are. They begin to talk like Muslims. They begin to eat like Muslims. They begin to dress like Muslims. They appear very religious and indeed they are… but the appearance of religious behavior and ritual goes only an inch beneath the surface.

I have a friend who converted to Christianity. I had a problem with a store owner over a price - I was ripped off. My friend asked after I told him about it, “Isn’t that store run by Muslims?” “Yes,” I responded. “They won’t help you. Muslims won’t even help each other. He got away with ripping you off and really it comes down to one person’s word over another’s. There isn’t anything you will be able to say that will convince Him to be forthright.” I didn’t believe my friend at first. I went to the store and explained how I had been taken advantage of (in very friendly words) and the man refused to refund me the money he had wrongly taken. I talked with him for a long time - I didn’t want to believe that my friend was right. In the end the man refused.

Ethics, common courtesy, mercy, these ideas were not part of the man’s mindset.

Islam changes the appearance of people, but it doesn’t change their hearts. It may provide them with order if they are living a life of chaos, but they are still running around chasing after all the things of life, with no concern for the bigger picture - chasing after the things of life only thinking about what they want. For Muslims heaven after all is a gluttonous orgy - a selfish me-fest.

All the references on this site make it pretty clear how crooked Islam is… If the Qur’an and the Hadiths aren’t enough to open our eyes, what will?

haha - I had the same problem. Only it involved my niece and nephew (10 and 12)!

So, I waited until there were about 5-6-7 people in the store and then made sure that all heard what this person did. I took my neice and nephew with me and they did indeed get their correct change back.

They had the money I gave to them, so I know what they originally had. they bought their stuff, kept the receipt and showed me what they got back as change. They grumbled all the way home about it and were upset. They did ask the man for the correct change and he wouldn’t even acknowledge them.

Keep in mind that ‘shame’ is also a part of their ‘schtick’ and in our society (at least at this time) they are still dealing with us infidels who know right from wrong.

I taught my neice and nephew that there is no shame to speak up for oneself and to be smart about it. In their case, they were children being cheated by an adult (Muslim). I found it most disgusting.

 

[sedonaman]

…
What is wrong with these verses?

The thing wrong with these verses is that you “cherry-picked” them. Mohammed treated believers one way and un-believers another. There ought to be "Mohammed’s Third Law of Islam: For every verse, there is an equal but opposite verse.”

So, you are wasting your time quoting the “nice” verses. We know there are other, not-nice verses for “kafirs”. For example,

“the persecution of Muslims is worse than slaughter [of non-Muslims]” (Sura 2:191). This verse established the tacit principle that the authority of Muslims is of higher value even than the very lives of others. There is no larger context of morality against which acts are judged. The only thing that matters is how an event impacts or benefits Muslims [or Islam]. – “Games Muslims Play”

What are you going to do now? Give me some out of context verses from the Quran?

To which I respond:

Here is the irony of the “cherry-picking” argument: Those who use “historical context” against their detractors nearly always engage in cherry-picking of their own by choosing which verses they apply “historical context” to and which they prefer to hold above such tactics of mitigation. – “Games Muslims Play”

[What are you going to do now?] … Give me an opinion from someone who hates islam?

This is a logical fallacy known as a “false dilemma”: Only two choices are possible [in this case, an Islam apologist and an Islam hater]; there is no third choice, like someone who is objective. Of course, to be objective, one must be able to assertain the answers to many questions, but to question Islam is blasphemy; no real, in-depth questions are allowed. Anyone who challenges the claims of Mohammed is “someone who hates Islam” by definition. Thus Mohammed becomes his own self-fulfilled prophecy.

 

[thunderballs75]

At OP:

Your post seems uncharitable and malicious in intent. No need to disrespect them, even if they are wrong. No need to judge or incite hatred. Prejudice, hatred, and disrespect are all sinful.

Maybe I’m getting the wrong message. If I am, I apologize.

 

[elwill]

Of course I am responsible for quoting what I quote. As you are. If one deceives another then it is that person who will answer to that deception.

As for rational vs what is happening in Muslim majority countries - it is in the news. Persecution of Christians in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, yemen, countries in Africa, the Gaza, Egypt, Lebanon, the Philippines is ongoing. The only thing is that Muslims don’t call it persecution because it is just another day in the world of Islam.

We are seeing now how a Muslim majority country is not at peace. Islam gives nothing but more chaos and hatred to the world. Look at Iran.

Genocide in Sudan of Christians by Muslims and it talks about other violence done by Muslims worldwide

Philippino Christians target for Muslims in Philippines

Here is one of your ‘misunderstanders of Islam’ telling us that violent jihad is indeed a part of Islam. Go tell him to stop misunderstanding Islam why don’t you?!
Here we have in a country, mine, that allows Muslims all the freedoms and what do they do time and again - declare jihad against us.

NY Muslims calling for attack on non-Muslims

well , as for it seems to me that you think that muslims hate christians in thier country , and seems to me that you will never accept otherwise , i have to ask you another question

i am muslim who is kind of pious and very proud with my religion and strive hard to obey my God according to islam , but in the same time i never killed any christians before nor did i persecuate any of them , actually i have manychristians friends in my country

my question is
will you love me or love my islam for such behaviour ? or will you still insult me as muslim because i don’t believe that jesus is God ( regardless of behaviour i have ) ?

As for you being all upset of your hadith, I don’t want to do as you direct. It is just a waste of my time and bits and bytes. You go look it up if you want it.

then don’t just claim that muslims have no answers , i already offer for you the discussion but you consider it loss of time