good points of islam

[ZAKI]

you said
But, back to abrogation - was it that Allah would forget what he said previously? Not a very smart God if you ask me.

i want to understand your view about this issue with some details , for i don’t know how you concluded from your knowledge about islam that allah forgot something he said , open my eyes with your knowledge if you think that it’s me who be brainwashed

how is that , again i can’t understnad your rational
is giving a charities for muslims evil behaviour ?

yes off course muslims are support the jihad , but the confusion part is that we support the islamic defination for jihad , not the antiislam defination for jihad

if your country be attacked from other people , what will you call those citizens who refuse to fight
whateve , just wanna to assure to you that the good muslims in your country will be the first people who will fight to free thier country and protect you , because allah command muslims to fight whoever fight with them
otherwise , may be devout christians supposed to give the enemy the other cheek , right ?

actually not , the zakat is a tax on the value of your wealth

as long as we are talking about islam religion , what about article written by muslim scholar instead of the one you quoting from it ? i think it will be more fair , right ?

I can say elwill-you have destroyed all of agabriel’s points in that post. Keep it up bro.

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

No. We are not playing that game of “Muslim changes the subject”. This tread is about Islam. If you want to discuss Christianity, start a new thread. Besides, you never answer our questions, so why should we answer yours?

Well actually this thread is about the GOOD points of islam

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

Don’t compliment yourself! Show humility, or I’m spanking you with a noodle! And it’s a very stringy noodle.

If it’s the noodle I think you’re talking about-I’ll probably eat it

wasalam

 

[seraphime2008]

True that. It’s very sad how muslims and christians argue over each other books and have actually NEVER read the other book. Every now and then you meet a muslim who has read the bible properly (moi) or a christian who has read the Quran properly-you will notice that these people actually have a great respect for the other book but decided that the one that they follow is better for them.

How do you know that by reading Quran properly, we discreetly respect it? Blah…on the other hand by reading it we find that it is rather suspicious if it should be given the title God’s words…you better keep digging for yourself the truth…without any preconception or any misleading bias

 

[seraphime2008]

ZAKI; 5371869:

Originally Posted by Booklover View Post
So there are some peaceful and good verses in the Quran. Muhammad had to preach some good things in order to make people believe that he was a prophet of God. Then after he was accepted he could get away with anything as he did for instance, when he received so-called “revelations” that were self gratifying.

Vickie
Actually there is only ONE surah of the Quran which is dedicated to Muhammed (pbuh). And it was revealed AFTER the death of Muhammed (pbuh).

You just showed that you don’t know much about your so called holy book! Go digging deeper! Vickie, perhaps you can explain to him the verses that really benefited Muhammad that even Aisha found rather suspicious…or many others.

 

[ZAKI]

I’ve already done that and alhamdullilah I have been guided.
Btw, why do you speak on behalf of all those people who have read the Quran when you haven’t even read the Quran yourself?

wasalam

 

[Hadi]

.

what Zaki meant by the one Surah dedicated to Mohammed , is the title of the Surah… just like Mary’s Surah and Yusouf’s Surah… not that this Surah was revealed after his death

 

[seraphime2008]

I

've already done that and alhamdullilah I have been guided.
Btw, why do you speak on behalf of all those people who have read the Quran when you haven’t even read the Quran yourself?

Tell u the truth, I have the Koran here with me, in English version and in my Bahasa, just if you’re curious. I read it sometimes, just to find how tiring it is and that I always find myself being promised repeatedly and rigorously a torture after life for so many things that I thought I could loose my belief that God really cares and loves us.

Not to mention other ridiculous thing about rules and regulations to make you good muslim that I found rather unacceptable. Too many to mention in this thread, could start many threads to discuss bout it. If you could care more, you can find it here on this site. There’s plenty!

Personally, I don’t find most Muslim friends I have here are bad. Indeed they are human with natural humanistic view towards most matters. But when it comes to religion, I found them rather scary, I couldn’t even say my different opinion towards their point of view, while I as the minority should shallow all the bitter remarks from them without having the ability to defend myself. The more fanatical they are, the more scary…I always feel that they somehow deep inside would feel that I am an infidel, the kuffir that will someday be sent to hell by God, if not hell in this life.

I am not Chinese, but the case of racial prejudice becomes doubled when it involve chinese Christian. I sometimes heard when some chinese friends have a misfortune, the Muslims will say they deserve it. But when a chinese Muslim got that misfortune, they will say that they were their brothers or sisters needed help. I really feel sick about it, how about same human being treated the same? Or at least we are living in the same country and the same citizenship, we should care not for the religion that we cling on to, right? I never,and all my christian fiends will never said that when Muslim got some misfortune, they really deserve it. And you know what? When the tsunami in Aceh happens, there was a recording in a video, and some voices were heard saying, why doens’t this happen in Christian area instead? Don’t u think this is way…way…to ridiculous to hear.

I really don’t need someone to point finger me all some good words from the Koran to find some argumentation that Muslims are good. Too many of them really inevitably reflects all the contrary that you can also find in the Koran.

Go read yourself…! I assume you’re just trying to make a different cultural identity than most peers that you know. And for that matters, I found that sometimes you can be as bias and as stubborn as you can.

peace

 

[ZAKI]

I

Tell u the truth, I have the Koran here with me, in English version and in my Bahasa, just if you’re curious. I read it sometimes, just to find how tiring it is and that I always find myself being promised repeatedly and rigorously a torture after life for so many things that I thought I could loose my belief that God really cares and loves us.

Not to mention other ridiculous thing about rules and regulations to make you good muslim that I found rather unacceptable. Too many to mention in this thread, could start many threads to discuss bout it. If you could care more, you can find it here on this site. There’s plenty!

Personally, I don’t find most Muslim friends I have here are bad. Indeed they are human with natural humanistic view towards most matters. But when it comes to religion, I found them rather scary, I couldn’t even say my different opinion towards their point of view, while I as the minority should shallow all the bitter remarks from them without having the ability to defend myself. The more fanatical they are, the more scary…I always feel that they somehow deep inside would feel that I am an infidel, the kuffir that will someday be sent to hell by God, if not hell in this life.

I am not Chinese, but the case of racial prejudice becomes doubled when it involve chinese Christian. I sometimes heard when some chinese friends have a misfortune, the Muslims will say they deserve it. But when a chinese Muslim got that misfortune, they will say that they were their brothers or sisters needed help. I really feel sick about it, how about same human being treated the same? Or at least we are living in the same country and the same citizenship, we should care not for the religion that we cling on to, right? I never,and all my christian fiends will never said that when Muslim got some misfortune, they really deserve it. And you know what? When the tsunami in Aceh happens, there was a recording in a video, and some voices were heard saying, why doens’t this happen in Christian area instead? Don’t u think this is way…way…to ridiculous to hear.

I really don’t need someone to point finger me all some good words from the Koran to find some argumentation that Muslims are good. Too many of them really inevitably reflects all the contrary that you can also find in the Koran.

Go read yourself…! I assume you’re just trying to make a different cultural identity than most peers that you know. And for that matters, I found that sometimes you can be as bias and as stubborn as you can.

peace

Huh? Chinese??? No way! People shouldn’t think like that!
Quran is tiring? That is seriously a first. But everybody has their views even if they r very “unique”
and yeah, I have read myself

wasalam

 

[sedonaman]

How do you know that by reading Quran properly, … ?

How could you even know you are reading it properly? Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this Islamic website.

All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Qur’an. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Qur’an? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. So how do you know you are reading it properly if "there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Qur’an and the original text in Arabic”? Note that most Muslims do not speak Arabic. How could they possibly know what they are believing?

 

[Agabriel]

True that. It’s very sad how muslims and christians argue over each other books and have actually NEVER read the other book. Every now and then you meet a muslim who has read the bible properly (moi) or a christian who has read the Quran properly-you will notice that these people actually have a great respect for the other book but decided that the one that they follow is better for them.

wasalam

Then you don’t even follow your own Quran.

surah 10:94 Basically, it is telling the muslims to read the Bible - the ‘books before them’. He even says that it is ‘truth from our Lord’. There are a few other surahs that tell muslims to do the same. So, if the Bible is considered the Truth even from the koran, then it nullifies the koran since the koran has a completely different message.

Also 10:37

So, basically we are told Muslims don’t read the Quran, but memorize it in Arabic which isn’t even the language of most Muslims. And then since they don’t know their own texts (except for the abrogated surahs they continually write on these posts that I am sure they get from their clerics to use) how can we expect them to have read the Bible.

 

[elwill]

hi , Agabriel
you missed our discussion in this thread , please read the post # 222

 

[Agabriel]

I can say elwill-you have destroyed all of agabriel’s points in that post. Keep it up bro.

wasalam

Naw he didn’t. In fact, he didn’t even read the original post, or he didn’t understand or retain it - he needs to reread it. I didn’t bother telling him that since I don’t know whether it was a matter of me having to repeat myself or not.

A ‘victory’ is not what I am looking for either. What you guys are trying to do is tell me opposite of what your Quran is saying and I get tired of telling you your own Quran. But, I actually realize that to admit to what the Quran says will just admit to us all what your agenda really is.

The ‘victory’ is a shallow victory on your parts if that is what you think it is all about. ‘victory’ to prove what?

Peace with unbelievers is either:conversion
acceptance of subjugation to Islam
death

Muslim Charities

%Muslims/%Violence

Here is some more ‘victory’ from your religion. I find it hard to find anything good about a religion whose people are ok with this sort of stuff in their Islamic texts and their noted peoples say stuff like this:

FROM THE QURAN:

–The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101)
– Mohammed is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29).
– It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, accidents excepted. (4:92)
– Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)
– Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
– Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. (2:193)
– The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. (4:76)
– We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151)
– I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)

FROM THE SAYINGS OF MUHAMMAD:
– Muhammad said to the Jews: "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. “

– Allah’s Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ "

– Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me.” (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196

– Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” Vol. 9:57

– Mohammed said, " No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir" (infidel). Vol. 9:50

– Muhammad said: "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, … When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them…If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)

YUSUF QARADAWI, the spiritual leader of the Muslim brotherhood and the most popular and influential Islamic religious authority in the world today, is on the recommended reading list of local mosques. Among other Islamist-supremacist things, he wrote:

“Islam came to be followed, not to follow; to be dominant, not subordinate."
“Islam came with it’s complete, comprehensive, and eternal Sharia Law for the whole of mankind."

ABUL MAUDUDI, also on the recommended reading list of American mosques, was the most important and popular Islamic writer of the 20th Century. He wrote: “The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy.”

 

[planten]

**Agabriel, you posted verses of the Quran with bad translation. You had tried to mislead the readers. I have told you many times that the word Kaafir in Arabic is for an external enemy of Islam. Kaafir is very hostile war monger type of unbeliever. Now I will try to correct your words in the light of the word Kaafir. Your writing is in red. My writing is in blue.

FROM THE QURAN:

–The unbelievers are your inveterate enemy. (4:101)**
The meaning is clear. The word in verse 4:101 is kaafir. Thanks for helping me. The verse says:
The kaafir are your manifest enemies. (4:101) (No doubt about them.)

– Mohammed is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. (48:29).
Those who follow him are ruthless to the hostile war monger type of unbelievers…

– It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, accidents excepted. (4:92)
It is unlawful for a believer to kill another believer, except by mistake. (4:92)

– Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. (5:51)
O Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your allies. They are the allies (supporters) of each other. (5:51)

– Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme. (8:40)
Make war on them until persecution ceases and the whole religions become as per God’s plans ( of no compulsion, no persecution) in any religion. (8:40)

– Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. (2:193)
Fight against them until there is no persecution and the religion becomes free for all as per Allah’s plans. (8:40)

– The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. (4:76)
Those who believe fight in the way of Allah. Those who are the enemies of Islam, they fight for the dar-devil (Al-Shaitan). (4:76)

– We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. (3:151)
We will put terror into the hearts of the enemies of Truth i.e. enemies of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad… (3:151)

– I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the faithless enemies. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. (8:12)

All muslims should take note that Kafir is not a simple peaceful non-believer. he is a hostile open enemy of all religions. It is alright to kill the enemy when the enemy is ready to kill you.

The Arabic word WALI does not mean friend. It means guardian or ally or supporter. The Arabic word for friend is KHALEEL not WALI…

(8:12)

 

[sedonaman]

**Agabriel, you posted verses of the Quran with bad translation. You had tried to mislead the readers. I have told you many times that the word Kaafir in Arabic is for an external enemy of Islam. Kaafir is very hostile war monger type of unbeliever. Now I will try to correct your words in the light of the word Kaafir. Your writing is in red. My writing is in blue.
**

You win the Invisible Ink Award … for seeing words that are not there. With this award, you can sell your own translation of the Quran because you are smarter than Yusufali, Pickthal, and Shakir:

004.101
YUSUFALI: When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
PICKTHAL: And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
SHAKIR: And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the Unbelievers are your open enemy.

048.029
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves.
SHAKIR: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the Unbelievers, compassionate among themselves;

004.092
YUSUFALI: Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): …
PICKTHAL: It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. …
SHAKIR: And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, …

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

You got your verse number wrong on this one:
008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

002.193
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise [sic] oppression.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[Turn about fair play. The word “free” or “freedom” don’t appear in this verse, just like “sword” is not in the Quran. If “free” or “freedom” are not in this verse, how can it be a verse of religious freedom?]

003.151
YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil [sic] terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Why does Allah need Muslims? Why doesn’t he just kill all unbelievers?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Was that a record skip I heard inside my head?

 

[elwill]

well , im fluent in arabic and i agree with planten in his understanding for these verses , actually all muslims agree with him
all what you want is to check the muslims sites in thier interpreatation for these verses

 

[planten]

J C, thanks for the compliments. I won’t say no more about myself now. But please understand that the word kaafir means an enemy. Agabriel has also provided a proof to me in the very first verse quoted.
The matter of Wali, Mr. Leopold Weiss (the polish Jew converted Muslim) in his translation of the Quran has provided the very good meaning for the word Wali. He says " Do not make (ot take) the Jews and the Christians as your allies…"

We also know from the Quran that the word for friend is “Khaleel”, as it is mentioned in respect of Hazrat Abraham a.s. in verse 4:125.

Also Khaleel is mentioned as friend in verses 17/73 and 25/28.

 

[Answersplease]

I thought it was the “royal” we, as when Queen Victoria famously said “We are not amused.” That is, it was Allah speaking directly to humankind.

I have a problem with abrogation also. If the Qur’an existed before time began, and its author is an omniscient and omnipotent being, why on earth wouldn’t it be in finished form when it was delivered to the Prophet?

The “royal we” is a custom used by European monarchs to associate themselves with God.

European monarchs also are fond of wearing “royal red” and “royal blue”
because these are the colors associated with Jesus The Christ (red) and Saint Mary Mother of God (blue).

The “royal we” comes from God in the Old Testament refering to Himself in the “third person plural”.
For example “Let Us make man in Our image.” and “Behold the man has become like one of Us knowing both good and evil.”

The point I’m making is that it is’nt royal monarchs,
but God Himself that is the source of people refering to themselves in the “third person plural”.

I ask a rhetorical (I already know the answer) question,
why does God refer to Himself in the “third person plural”?

---

“Look in the mirror, and behold, the work of our Lord’s hand.”

 

[Answersplease]

Wine is wine because it has intoxicating alcohol in it.

Wine that is not intoxicating is just grape juice or sweetened water.

Why go through the trouble of saying “wine” when they mean non-intoxicating grape juice or sweetened water?
Unless you are really trying to say “wine” that will make you drunk.

People who prefer wine over grape juice, prefer the wine because of its intoxicating effects.

For Christians, being in the presence of and connected to the Triune Godhead in Heaven is enough to give them perfect happiness, perfect peace, and perfect life.

Endless sex with an umlimited supply of new houris after you deflower the old houri would be a distraction from the happiness of being in the presence of God.
Is it proper to spend time away from God to go and deflower the latest houri and come back to God later?

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,
but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

---

“Look in the mirror, and behold, the work of our Lord’s hand.”