Good work = salvation is it true?

[I_v_I]

You say you don’t believe God created evil. Yet you say God actively wills evil because He knows humans sin and He keeps creating human beings. That appears like evil is grounded in the will of God rather than evil coming from the demerits of men themselves using their own free will. But maybe I’m misreading you.

To say God created evil is to put the source of evil on God. But yes He actively Wills evil to occur for His own good purposes. He does not cause the creation to do evil, He removes His restraining Spirit allowing the evil “heart” of the creation to work it’s desires (i.e. hardening the heart). And yes evil is in the Sovereign Will of God, but this does not mean that He is the source of it. The sources are His creations.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems you still have not understood what Biblical OSAS is even though I have explained it to you several times. I have nothing to do with what other ppl tell you. If you ask me a question you should respond to what I say and not to what others say on the topic otherwise there is no point in asking me.

Once again, Biblical OSAS is about God Saving a soul once and for all. When He Saves a person, they nor anyone/anything else can do anything to cause that person to be “unSaved” and therefore need additional Saving. Hence, once Saved, always Saved.

I highly doubt Catholic teaching agrees with this, but as my advice was to you, I’ll take you at your word for your understanding so, if you say so.

Fair enough.

OSAS, then, as you describe it, is quite difference from Assurance of Salvation.

So what say you to someone who says, “If you died tonight would you be assured of going to heaven?”

 

[paul_c]

To say God created evil is to put the source of evil on God. But yes He actively Wills evil to occur for His own good purposes. He does not cause the creation to do evil, He removes His restraining Spirit allowing the evil “heart” of the creation to work it’s desires (i.e. hardening the heart). And yes evil is in the Sovereign Will of God, but this does not mean that He is the source of it. The sources are His creations.

I don’t think this is correct because you are making God to be schizophrenic.

Let’s go at it a different way:

I think we can all agree that God is all good and in Genesis, every thing he makes is categorized as “good”, is it not. So how did Evil enter the world? Well Genesis tells us that it was through the temptation of Satan, doesn’t it. Adam and Eve were given complete freedom of choice and they chose to disobey God because they believed Satan’s lies. And because of that choice, we are all subject to the ramifications: hardship and death.

God, because he is all Good, does not will us or anyone else to do evil. You are right that he allows us to do what we desire but you are wrong in thinking that all we desire is to do evil. This is a very dark view of mankind that is not justified in scripture or in experience. People are inherently good, just as God created them, but there is a tendency to sin that must be purged out of us, either in this life or in purgatory.

Keep in mind that God does not see hardship and death the same way as we do. In His eyes, hardships are those things that allow us to grow and provide a forum for us to chose to love or to hate. Death is simply the exit from this life to the next.

 

[paul_c]

I have maintained that “good works” are a result of a TB’s Salvation and not a contributing factor to Salvation, neither in part or in whole. At the same time, “good works” are a definite result of Salvation, they WILL be done.
So no, I don’t believe “works” or “works + faith” leads to Salvation, I believe the Bible tells us that true faith in Christ alone leads to Salvation, leading to the Lord working through His Spirit in us to perform “good works”.

Okay, once again, if you are defining salvation as getting into the state of grace, then yes, Good works play absolutely no role in that. It is by faith alone that we enter into baptism. If however, you are equating salvation with actually getting into heaven, then you are wrong. You must do the will of God to get to heaven and this requires works of mercy. (See Matthew 7: 21-23 and Matthew 25: 31-46)]

Yes. I believe man’s actions have salvific consequences. However, in some cases the origination of these actions is where we disagree.

Man’s actions can only have salvific consequences if man has free will, which of course is the Catholic teaching. God is the impetus for our good works, but we still need to cooperate with His will.

I believe the Bible tells us that in terms of Salvation, man left to himself will indeed make his/her own choice. However, the only choice man of himself can make is to reject Christ. So in this case I agree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

If we only have one choice, that is no choice at all. Man is completely capable of choosing to follow Christ. You, yourself are proof of that.

As for those who accept Christ, I believe the Bible tells us that the only way to come to faith in Christ is for God Himself to give it to man. Without Him giving them the faith, they would never have chosen Him. So in this case I disagree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

While man doesn’t have full control, he does have the ability to choose right or wrong.

So then you would agree that it is in the plan of God that not all men are Saved and some people go to hell? And because God is omniscient, this was in His plan from before creation?

I agree. Not all men are saved and this was part of God’s plan. But remember, man does have a choice, even if God knows in advance what it will be.

No, but almost. I believe that the Bible tells us that everything does indeed happen just as God Wills it to happen, rather good, bad or ugly. However, I do not believe It tells us that God CAUSES it all to happen. I believe we are told that God is the cause of all good and creation is the cause of all bad. However, even the bad caused from creation is exactly what God Wills to happen in order to make His glory known.

Careful here. God is the creator of all things and they are all good. Man has the choice of using those things can be in accordance with God’s will or against God’s will (sin). God knows what man will choose and is plan takes that into account.

I believe Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man. So no, I don’t believe “good works” from man, in part or in whole, contribute to Salvation. Again though, I believe the work of the Lord (not of man) will lead those who have been given faith and therefore have been Saved to do good works. These are the results of true Salvation.

Again, getting into the state of grace is from God, but getting into heaven requires man’s cooperation, not because God can’t save a man against his will but because he does not desire to save a man against his will.

I think we can all agree that God is omniscient, and He is the only One Who creates, and when He creates He creates perfectly (meaning He makes no mistakes in creating His creations).

Your choices are a direct result of how God chose to create you in tandem with the environment He chose to place you in. Before God created you He knew exactly what you were going to do in every single situation you were going to be in. NOT ONLY because He is omniscient, but also because He is creating you (your looks, 5 senses, attitude, personality, mind, all else) and creating the environment you will be in and will see exactly how His creation of you will react in every single situation you will ever be in. If at any point in God’s omniscient view of your life before He created you He sees that you would react in a way He truly does not want. He could “edit” His creation of you before He actually created you so that you would react as He pleased. And if He left that “defect” in you, it was still a result of God Willing that you act in opposition to His Revealed Will. Now of course the “editing” is simply to illustrate my point, God needs to edit nothing as He is perfect.

So even if you hold to this idea of God’s Sovereignty, you still have to come up with a theory that separates your choices from God’s initial creation in order to say they are totally of yourself. If not, it would seem your choices are still bound by the Will of God in a way that you seem to be apposed to.

I think you are right in everything but your conclusion. While it is true that God made you what you are and hence , knows the choices you will make. He still allows you to make those choices. That is the essence of free will. Its a subtle difference but with it is the very real difference of the Catholic view (Man is responsible for his choices) and the Calvinist view (Man is not responsible for his choices)

 

[I_v_I]

So what say you to someone who says, “If you died tonight would you be assured of going to heaven?”

I would say, “God Willing”. And explain that I am confident and why I am confident. The explanation would include that my confidence comes from my belief in Christ alone, Who died for my sins and was resurrected. I would add that I believe my faith is true because of the positive changes in my life that I believe have resulted from my faith and subsequently God’s work in me.

 

[I_v_I]

To say God created evil is to put the source of evil on God. But yes He actively Wills evil to occur for His own good purposes. He does not cause the creation to do evil, He removes His restraining Spirit allowing the evil “heart” of the creation to work it’s desires (i.e. hardening the heart). And yes evil is in the Sovereign Will of God, but this does not mean that He is the source of it. The sources are His creations.

I don’t think this is correct because you are making God to be schizophrenic.

What exactly do you believe to be schizophrenic of God in my statement?

I think we can all agree that God is all good and in Genesis, every thing he makes is categorized as “good”, is it not.

Indeed He is and it is. We agree.

So how did Evil enter the world? Well Genesis tells us that it was through the temptation of Satan, doesn’t it.

Yes. Satan is one of God’s creations…

Adam and Eve were given complete freedom of choice and they chose to disobey God because they believed Satan's lies.  And because of that choice, we are all subject to the ramifications: hardship and death.

Was it in God’s Will that they fall to Satan’s lies? Or was it outside His Sovereign Will?

God, because he is all Good, does not will us or anyone else to do evil.

Could it not be possible that there is a good result from the evil that is done and therefore God is still performing “good”?

You are right that he allows us to do what we desire but you are wrong in thinking that all we desire is to do evil. This is a very dark view of mankind that is not justified in scripture or in experience.

Paul this is a major point of the scriptures that you’ll are missing, you’ll have a non scriptural view of man not me… This view leads to self righteousness and the belief that you can contribute to Salvation through cooperation.

Rom 3:10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

Mark 10:“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone.

Show me scripture that says man of himself desires to do good and not evil.

People are inherently good, just as God created them, but there is a tendency to sin that must be purged out of us, either in this life or in purgatory.

This view is very dangerous. Show me in scripture.

Keep in mind that God does not see hardship and death the same way as we do. In His eyes, hardships are those things that allow us to grow and provide a forum for us to chose to love or to hate. Death is simply the exit from this life to the next.

Yes, I realize this.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
So what say you to someone who says, “If you died tonight would you be assured of going to heaven?”

A devout Catholic might also answer “God Willing” but their explanation for any confidence would be " I think I am in the state of Grace."

Note, that the differences between the two theologies.
You believe that God will take you into heaven based on your faith, proven by your works.

Catholics believe that God will take them into heaven if they are in the state of grace. We know we are in the state of grace at baptism and after the sacrament of reconciliation because the priest confirms this speaking for Jesus through the church. If we have committed no mortal sin, we remain in that state. Mortal sins are known to the individual because to be mortal, they must be serious sins, intentionally done with full knowledge that they are mortal sins.

 

[paul_c]

---

To say God created evil is to put the source of evil on God. But yes He actively Wills evil to occur for His own good purposes. He does not cause the creation to do evil, He removes His restraining Spirit allowing the evil “heart” of the creation to work it’s desires (i.e. hardening the heart). And yes evil is in the Sovereign Will of God, but this does not mean that He is the source of it. The sources are His creations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
I don’t think this is correct because you are making God to be schizophrenic.

You have God desiring both good and evil to be done. Do you really subscribe to the concept that evil leads to good? Evil is overcome by good, but it certainly doesn’t lead to it. Evil by definition is counter to good and sin is doing something counter to God’s will

---

Quote:
I think we can all agree that God is all good and in Genesis, every thing he makes is categorized as “good”, is it not.

Good and not surprising.

---

Quote:
So how did Evil enter the world? Well Genesis tells us that it was through the temptation of Satan, doesn’t it.

yes, but God didn’t make Satan to create sin. Sin was created when Satan, in his pride, rebelled against God.

---

Quote:
Adam and Eve were given complete freedom of choice and they chose to disobey God because they believed Satan’s lies. And because of that choice, we are all subject to the ramifications: hardship and death.

It was not God’s will that they fell to Satan’s lies. It was God’s will that they were able to make their own choice and in his love, he warned them of the consequences both good and bad associated with that choice… When they chose to sin, God in his justice carried through with the punishment he warned them about.

---

Quote:
God, because he is all Good, does not will us or anyone else to do evil.

This is one of Satan’s less sophisticated lies. Evil never leads to good. Evil is and always will be counter to good. Don’t be fooled into thinking that evil is Good just because good defeats evil.

---

Quote:
You are right that he allows us to do what we desire but you are wrong in thinking that all we desire is to do evil. This is a very dark view of mankind that is not justified in scripture or in experience.

Paul was burlesquing a bit to make the point that Jews were no better than Greeks. But recognize that this quote came from Psalm 14 and psalm 53 (they are virtually identical) and in those psalms, these quotes are directed toward the fools that say there is no God and is compared against the Just, who are in the company of God.

---

Mark 10:“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone.

Show me scripture that says man of himself desires to do good and not evil.

There are tons of references about Just men in the bible. Enoch and Elijah were both brought directly to heaven. Joseph is called a righteous man in Matthew 1:19. And you know from your own personal experience (I would hope) that many if not most people try to do the right thing. I have rarely encountered the person whose first impulse was to do evil. If your view of the nature of man was correct, that would be the first impulse of everyone. It is simply not the case.

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:
People are inherently good, just as God created them, but there is a tendency to sin that must be purged out of us, either in this life or in purgatory.

This view is very dangerous. Show me in scripture. Actually, no. This view is a beatitude. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. You see, we are called to see he good in others and in that way, we can see God in them. Also, have you not heard, “judge not, lest you be judged And by the measure you judge will you be judged.” Can you not see that we are to look for the good in others, not the evil? Think about this from a human, practical perspective. How do people react to those constantly finding fault in others? How do they react to people who recognize and applaud the good things others do? Take that to heart. God reacts in the same way.

---

Quote:
Keep in mind that God does not see hardship and death the same way as we do. In His eyes, hardships are those things that allow us to grow and provide a forum for us to chose to love or to hate. Death is simply the exit from this life to the next.

I think we actually agree on most things. I’m trying to understand and reconcile those things where we are not in current agreement.

 

[I_v_I]

You have God desiring both good and evil to be done. Do you really subscribe to the concept that evil leads to good?

Absolutely! God indeed uses evil to chasten His children. This is God using the evil acts of man for good.

Rom 8:And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Evil is overcome by good, but it certainly doesn’t lead to it.

Evil absolutely leads to good when God is in control as He is always.

Gen 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

Evil by definition is counter to good and sin is doing something counter to God’s will

Sinning is counter to God’s revealed Will, but is in lock step with His Sovereign Will.

yes, but God didn’t make Satan to create sin. Sin was created when Satan, in his pride, rebelled against God.

He didn’t make Satan only to create sin, but that was definitely one of the purposes for creating Satan. God uses Him as an instrument to use evil in order to bring about a good outcome.

God saw that Satan would fall before He created him, if He didn’t want Him to fall God would have created Him so that He wouldn’t have. To say that Satan fell even though God didn’t Will Him to fall means God made a mistake in His creation and didn’t create Satan perfectly in his imperfections.

This is one of Satan’s less sophisticated lies. Evil never leads to good. Evil is and always will be counter to good. Don’t be fooled into thinking that evil is Good just because good defeats evil.

I’ve never said evil was good, but that God in His Sovereignty can use evil for His good purposes and every single act of evil is overseen by God and Sovereignly controlled to bring about a good outcome.

I have shown you with scripture that God uses the evil acts of His creations for good. And I will show you more. Please show me scripture that says God does not use evil acts to bring about good.

Paul was burlesquing a bit to make the point that Jews were no better than Greeks. But recognize that this quote came from Psalm 14 and psalm 53 (they are virtually identical) and in those psalms, these quotes are directed toward the fools that say there is no God and is compared against the Just, who are in the company of God.

Yes I am aware the original quote comes from psalms, and in all cases it refers to all natural born men. This means everyone. The ones counter to this are those born of the Spirit of God(i.e. made alive in their spirits).

There are tons of references about Just men in the bible. Enoch and Elijah were both brought directly to heaven. Joseph is called a righteous man in Matthew 1:19.

God Justifies, He makes people Righteous. They are not Just or Righteous of themselves. All men are born of the flesh with dead spirits. God makes His chosen people alive in the spirit with His Spirit and then and only then can they do any good.

Enoch, Elijah and Joseph were made Righteous by God. They did not come out of the womb that way.

I asked for scripture that showed man in and of themselves choose to do good instead of evil.

And you know from your own personal experience (I would hope) that many if not most people try to do the right thing. I have rarely encountered the person whose first impulse was to do evil. If your view of the nature of man was correct, that would be the first impulse of everyone. It is simply not the case.

I know that my personal experiences in terms of trying to discern whether an act by another is good or evil is almost always useless. Why? Because we do not see what God sees. We see the act or appearance of things, God sees the truth behind it all.

You should look to scripture for your understanding…

Gen 50:20b The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

Just because you see someone “praising God” does not mean they truly believe.

Matt 15: 8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

Just because someone offers you all the food and drink you like does not mean they are being hospitable and selfless.

Prov 23:6 Do not eat the food of a begrudging host,
do not crave his delicacies;
7 for he is the kind of person
who is always thinking about the cost.**
“Eat and drink,” he says to you,
but his heart is not with you.**
8 You will vomit up the little you have eaten
and will have wasted your compliments.

 

[PRmerger]

Evil absolutely leads to good when God is in control as He is always.

Or, in your paradigm, evil IS good, as a murderer ends up in heaven, even if he repented not.

Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[I_v_I]

Actually, no. This view is a beatitude. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

Matt5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

**11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
**
This tells us who will be blessed. It does not tell us that those that will be blessed are being blessed because they of themselves are worthy to be blessed. They are blessed because of the Righteousness of Christ. Not righteousness of themselves, they in their flesh had no righteousness.

Also please take note of verses 11-12. Another example of God using evil to bring about good results.

You see, we are called to see he good in others and in that way, we can see God in them.

Show me this in scripture please.

Also, have you not heard, “judge not, lest you be judged And by the measure you judge will you be judged.”

I don’t mind judging by the Word of God, cause that is exactly what I plan to be “judged” by (quotes bc not THE JUDGEMENT).

Can you not see that we are to look for the good in others, not the evil?

Jesus John the Baptist and the apostles looked for the evil in people, not for unrighteous means, but in love in order to help purge them of it.

Think about this from a human, practical perspective.

This is a problem you currently have if I can say so in humility and love. You are thinking about things from your own perspective and not from the Bible’s.

How do people react to those constantly finding fault in others?

They react in the same way they reacted to Jesus John the Baptist and the Apostles. They were all persecuted. People hate to hear they are not good.

How do they react to people who recognize and applaud the good things others do?

They will react as they did to the self righteous Pharisees. They were the stars of the Jews because they told people that they could be righteous if they “worked” to be so. People love to hear that they are good. But we know exactly where that got the Pharisees and those that followed them…

And along the same lines of seeing the actions and not the heart…

Prov 26:24 Enemies disguise themselves with their lips,
but in their hearts they harbor deceit.
25 Though their speech is charming, do not believe them,
for seven abominations fill their hearts.
26 Their malice may be concealed by deception,
but their wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it;
if someone rolls a stone, it will roll back on them.
28 A lying tongue hates those it hurts,
and a flattering mouth works ruin.

Take that to heart. God reacts in the same way.

God actually acts in the exact opposite way. God does not applaud fallen man because there is nothing in us to applaud. The Word of God is offensive to man not flattering.

 

[I_v_I]

Or, in your paradigm, evil IS good, as a murderer ends up in heaven, even if he repented not.

Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven.

lol. I see we are already back to you ascribing your make believe paradigms to me. That was a quick reprieve ahaha.

 

[I_v_I]

The following quote is a response to the “fictional” example in the larger quote in this link.

Be honest with yourself. What you are describing is not free will. You are describing man as a puppet of God being manipulated every step of the way to carry out God;s purpose. In fact, you have even described a situation where God is causing someone to act unjustly by robbing a home and killing a child. How could a loving God do that?…

No, man has REAL free will. You and every other member of the human race make decisions every day that will effect their salvation. Don’t you recognize this or do you really believe that nothing you do matters?…

I have been honest. Now I would like you to truly be honest with yourself, not me. I’m not looking for a response. Just take a good look at what the following scripture says.

If what I’ve described in my example is not “REAL free will” what do you believe the Assyrians had?
Were the Assyrian’s God’s puppets He used to carry out His purpose?
How does what you have said align or misalign with this description of the One True God?
Is this an example of God using evil for good?
How does this change your understanding of “free will”?
In light of this, is there such a thing as free will?
If this scripture is true, what does it say about Catholic understanding of “free will” and man’s ability to choose?
What happens to those who believe, “By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, For I have understanding…”? Could the same fate fall on those who believe they have a hand in their “Salvation”?

Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
6 I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations.
8 For it says, “Are not my princes [k]all kings?
9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish,
Or Hamath like Arpad,
Or Samaria like Damascus?
10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 Shall I not [l]do to Jerusalem and her images
Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”

12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.” 13 For he has said,

“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down [o]their inhabitants,
14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest,
And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth;
And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”

** 15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a [p]club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.**
16 Therefore the Lord, the [q]GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors;
And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame,
And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body,
And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number
That a child could write them down.

 

[I_v_I]

The following quote is a response to the questions at the bottom of this: link.

Your last statement he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do. imo, attempts to create a conclusion that God is the architect of all that is bad, and we are mere pawns in various side shows.

Re: answers to your questions

1. 
   *]N. as stated
   *]N. as stated. God doesn’t will evil
   *]I have a problem with using manipulating as an example
   *]N. as stated. God doesn’t commission anyone to do evil. (I’d be happy to discuss that)
   
   Would God incarnate, live, die a horrible death, rise from the dead, create His Church, the sacraments, etc etc etc, and ascend back to heaven for pawns and puppets? He did all that for theater? No. & No.

1. 
   Not looking for a response
   In Catholic understanding is the God represented in the scripture below a Just God?
   In Catholic understanding would this be a representation of God willing evil?
   Do you think the Assyrians are pawns and/or puppets?
   Do you think they were used for theater?
   Did they have free will?
   How does this agree or disagree with Catholic understanding of free will?
   What happened to those in verse 15 who pridefully thought they controlled the Almighty instead of realizing He was in control?
   
   Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
   And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
   6 I send it against a godless nation
   And commission it against the people of My fury
   To capture booty and to seize plunder,
   And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
   7 Yet it does not so intend,
   Nor does it plan so in its heart,
   But rather it is its purpose to destroy
   And to cut off many nations.
   8 For it says, “Are not my princes [k]all kings?
   9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish,
   Or Hamath like Arpad,
   Or Samaria like Damascus?
   10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
   Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
   11 Shall I not [l]do to Jerusalem and her images
   Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”
   
   12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.” 13 For he has said,
   
   “By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
   For I have understanding;
   And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
   And plundered their treasures,
   And like a mighty man I brought down [o]their inhabitants,
   14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest,
   And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth;
   And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”
   
   ** 15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
   Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
   That would be like a [p]club wielding those who lift it,
   Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.**
   16 Therefore the Lord, the [q]GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors;
   And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.
   17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame,
   And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
   18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body,
   And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
   19 And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number
   That a child could write them down.

 

[I_v_I]

The following quote is a response to the questions at the bottom of this: link.

OK, so what your saying is God doesnt force people against their will, He forces and manipulates their will to become what He wants it to be and then His plans are carried out by their bodies as a natural consequence of this forcing and manipulating.
**IMO that is no different than “forcing people against their will”. Humans rely upon their will to discern a course of action. When you manipulate their will their response will change just as if you had forced them. When you manipulate their will it is no longer their will at all. **

If God were to judge this person based upon their actions which flowed from His manipulation of their will then I would say it is not a representation of a Just God.

I have no problem with God exercising his omnipotence and sovereignty to bring about an end He has deemed just. I don’t, however, believe this example has anything to do with the original situation in which God “manipulated and forced” the will of the individual to be something other than what it was. If God “manipulates and forces” our will to become something different we are no longer responsible for the consequences which flow from that will. At least that is my understanding of justice.

Using the free will choices of a thief, YES; changing someone’s will so that they become a thief and then condemning the man for being what God caused him to be - NO.

No, it would be non Biblical because it isn’t in the Bible.

I don’t know what you mean by commissioning. If you mean God caused them to commit the act by manipulating their will, then I would guess that it is unjust.

Not looking for a response
In light of scripture below, did God force the Assyrians against their will?
Did the Assyrians have free will?
In Catholic understanding is the following scripture a representation of a Just God?
Were the Assyrian’s “cooperating with God” or did God control it ALL without them having any knowledge of it?
Was the work being done the work of the Assyrian or the work of God through the Assyrian? Could the same thing be applied to the “good works” done “by man”?
Does this scripture align with Catholic teachings of “free will”? If not, what are the repercussions on other doctrine?

Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
6 I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations.
8 For it says, “Are not my princes [k]all kings?
9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish,
Or Hamath like Arpad,
Or Samaria like Damascus?
10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 Shall I not [l]do to Jerusalem and her images
Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”

12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.” 13 For he has said,

“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down [o]their inhabitants,
14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest,
And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth;
And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”

** 15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a [p]club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.**
16 Therefore the Lord, the [q]GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors;
And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame,
And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body,
And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number
That a child could write them down.

 

[PRmerger]

lol. I see we are already back to you ascribing your make believe paradigms to me. That was a quick reprieve ahaha.

If you say so.

However, there is response to your inconsistency. Either the Scriptures are wrong and some unclean things do enter heaven, or your paradigm is wrong and an unrepentant murderer cannot enter heaven…

Can’t be both.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
You have God desiring both good and evil to be done. Do you really subscribe to the concept that evil leads to good?

I don’t think we are talking about the same thing. God imposes hardships on people to chasten them. And yes, sometimes those hardships are caused by the actions of others. But woe to those that cause the hardships. See Luke 17:
Temptations to Sin.
1 He said to his disciples, “Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur.
2It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
3Be on your guard!* If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4And if he wrongs you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times saying, ‘I am sorry,’ you should forgive him.”

Quote:
Evil is overcome by good, but it certainly doesn’t lead to it.

Joseph was rigth that they intended to harm him and they will answer for those sins. God did not force them to do this. They did it on their own. But God foresaw that this would happen and his plan accounted for their sin.

Quote:
Evil by definition is counter to good and sin is doing something counter to God’s will

This is true if by his sovereign will, you means He allows men to think and act for themselves.

Quote:
yes, but God didn’t make Satan to create sin. Sin was created when Satan, in his pride, rebelled against God

I think about this differently. God’s plan is good. He knew Satan would rebel but uses that rebellion to test others to see if they will love God or Evil. In the infinite wisdom of God’s plan, Satan’s actually ends up, against his will for sure, doing God’s work of testing man’s love.

God saw that Satan would fall before He created him, if He didn’t want Him to fall God would have created Him so that He wouldn’t have. To say that Satan fell even though God didn’t Will Him to fall means God made a mistake in His creation and didn’t create Satan perfectly in his imperfections.

God didn’t make a mistake and yes He knew Satan would fall. But it was still Satan’s choice.

Quote:
This is one of Satan’s less sophisticated lies. Evil never leads to good. Evil is and always will be counter to good. Don’t be fooled into thinking that evil is Good just because good defeats evil.

I guess the differences between our views is this. You see God creates evil and uses evil for his purposes

I see God it as God created men (and angels) with free will that allows them the freedom to go against God’s will (sin) But God, is allseeing and allpowerful, so he anticipates sin and corrects for it in other ways in his plan. God did not create the sin (but he did create the sinner), and he hopes and trains men to avoid sin through their consciences.

I have shown you with scripture that God uses the evil acts of His creations for good. And I will show you more. Please show me scripture that says God does not use evil acts to bring about good.

No, you showed that God can use good to overcome people’s evil acts. As for showing that God does not use evil acts to bring about good, I seem to remember a verse from Saint Paul saying that some were saying that he was teaching that sin led to good and that they would get what they deserve. I couldn’t find it - maybe someone else can.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Paul was burlesquing a bit to make the point that Jews were no better than Greeks. But recognize that this quote came from Psalm 14 and psalm 53 (they are virtually identical) and in those psalms, these quotes are directed toward the fools that say there is no God and is compared against the Just, who are in the company of God.

Here is psalm 14:
For the leader. Of David.
I

The fool says in his heart,

“There is no God.”

Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt;

not one does what is good.a

2The LORD looks down from heaven

upon the children of men,b

To see if even one is wise,

if even one seeks God.c

3All have gone astray;

all alike are perverse.

Not one does what is good,

not even one.d
II

4Will these evildoers never learn?

They devour my people as they devour bread;e

they do not call upon the LORD.f

5They have good reason, then, to fear;

God is with the company of the just.

6They would crush the hopes of the poor,

but the poor have the LORD as their refuge.
III

7gOh, that from Zion might come

the salvation of Israel!

Jacob would rejoice, and Israel be glad

when the LORD restores his people!*

• [Psalm 14] The lament (duplicated in Ps 53) depicts the world as consisting of two types of people: “the fool” (equals the wicked, Ps 14:1–3) and “the company of the just” (Ps 14:4–6; also called “my people,” and “the poor”). The wicked persecute the just, but the Psalm expresses the hope that God will punish the wicked and reward the good.

Quote:
There are tons of references about Just men in the bible. Enoch and Elijah were both brought directly to heaven. Joseph is called a righteous man in Matthew 1:19.

I’m not arguing that man can do good without the help of God. God helps all men all the time to do good. Every man has a conscience that is the spirit of God within them pointing out the right choices. All man has to do is cooperate and he will do good. I’m telling you that man is not inherently evil. Genesis 1:31 says that" God looked at everything he made and he found it very good.:.

Quote:
And you know from your own personal experience (I would hope) that many if not most people try to do the right thing. I have rarely encountered the person whose first impulse was to do evil. If your view of the nature of man was correct, that would be the first impulse of everyone. It is simply not the case.

Come on , I v I, you have a conscience like every other human that tells you right from wrong. See Romans 2: 12-16 where Paul discussed the natural law. God does not leave you in the dark on this. You know I’m right on this. There are very few people who’se first inclination is to deliberately sin. Man is not inherently evil.

You should look to scripture for your understanding…

Gen 50:20b The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

Just because you see someone “praising God” does not mean they truly believe.

Matt 15: 8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

Just because someone offers you all the food and drink you like does not mean they are being hospitable and selfless.

Prov 23:6 Do not eat the food of a begrudging host,
do not crave his delicacies;
7 for he is the kind of person
who is always thinking about the cost.**
“Eat and drink,” he says to you,
but his heart is not with you.
8 You will vomit up the little you have eaten
and will have wasted your compliments.
** The problem between us is not a function of knowing scripture. We both have way above average knowledge of scripture. No, the problem is in how to interpret scripture. You see, we interpret scripture based on Catholic tradition. you interpret it on your own. Its not surprising that we understand them differently

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Actually, no. This view is a beatitude. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

You are really stretching big time here. What verse 11-12 says is that if you persevere in the face of persecution, you will be rewarded.

Quote:
You see, we are called to see he good in others and in that way, we can see God in them.

Show me this in scripture please. This is how this passage is interpreted in Catholic Tradition. You see, the Catholic Church has been passing this knowledge down by word of mouth (and eventually in writing) for 2000 years. You are separated from this Tradition.so you are forced to try to figure out what it means on your own. This is a significant disadvantage.

Quote:
Also, have you not heard, “judge not, lest you be judged And by the measure you judge will you be judged.”

I don’t mind judging by the Word of God, cause that is exactly what I plan to be “judged” by (quotes bc not THE JUDGEMENT).
If you understood the word of God, you wouldn’t say that.

Quote:
Can you not see that we are to look for the good in others, not the evil?

Jesus John the Baptist and the apostles looked for the evil in people, not for unrighteous means, but in love in order to help purge them of it.
You are severely mistaken.

Quote:
Think about this from a human, practical perspective.

This is a problem you currently have if I can say so in humility and love. You are thinking about things from your own perspective and not from the Bible’s. No, I am trying to show you how your interpretations are false.

Quote:
How do people react to those constantly finding fault in others?

They react in the same way they reacted to Jesus John the Baptist and the Apostles. They were all persecuted. People hate to hear they are not good.

This is true.

Quote:
How do they react to people who recognize and applaud the good things others do?

They will react as they did to the self righteous Pharisees. They were the stars of the Jews because they told people that they could be righteous if they “worked” to be so. People love to hear that they are good. But we know exactly where that got the Pharisees and those that followed them…

And along the same lines of seeing the actions and not the heart…

Prov 26:24 Enemies disguise themselves with their lips,
but in their hearts they harbor deceit.
25 Though their speech is charming, do not believe them,
for seven abominations fill their hearts.
26 Their malice may be concealed by deception,
but their wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it;
if someone rolls a stone, it will roll back on them.
28 A lying tongue hates those it hurts,
and a flattering mouth works ruin.
You are looking at this wrong. I’m talking about the people who genuinely appreciate when people are good, not when people flatter for their own benefit.

Quote:
Take that to heart. God reacts in the same way.

God actually acts in the exact opposite way. God does not applaud fallen man because there is nothing in us to applaud. The Word of God is offensive to man not flattering.
This is not in the least bit true. Didn’t Jesus applaud Zachaeus when he offered to pay back those he defrauded and didn’t he applaud the Centurian when he showed great faith. and didn’t he say there was joy in heaven when a sinner repents.