Good work = salvation is it true?

[Philthy]

The point of this chapter is to prove that it is faith and faith alone that justifies man before God. Be that faith from one with the Law (Jews) or those without (Gentiles). This is why Paul switches back and forth. He is saying that whether you have the law and are circumcised or don’t have the law and are not circumcised, righteousness before God is by faith apart from works.

Uhhh, yes and no. First and foremost Paul is refuting the notion that salvation requires the law: salvation is for ALL “jews and greeks alike”, which he repeats often.
Faith does justify, but faith alone (if it has the opportunity to work and chooses not to) does not. I cannot think of a single Pauline epistle that doesnt address the “need” for those who “have been saved” (ie justified) to behave in a particular way or avoid behaving in a particular way so that they don’t forfeit their salvation. Romans is no exception.
I suspect your confusion is based upon the error of “once saved always saved”, but I could be mistaken. Do you believe a “saved” person can, through subsequent unrepentant sin, be condemned at the completion of their life? Y or N?

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

I do not believe either of these are inspired.

They do not thereby stand condemned as “uninspired”! You (and I) are not the judge of such things…

Like I said though, there is a possibility that there are inspired books out there that are not canonized. This does not bother me however.

Your being bothered or not bothered by it seems irrelevant.

Those that are in the Bible are there by the Will of God, those that are excluded are excluded by the Will of God. That’s enough for me.

That’s a bold statement - that the books of “the Bible” are there “by the Will of God” - was that revealed to you personally or publicly?? How exactly do you know this?
Furthermore, you forgot to mention exactly which “canon” is the correct one and it’s important because there are different canons…
Back to the thread at hand…

Blessings

 

[I_v_I]

Uhhh, yes and no. First and foremost Paul is refuting the notion that salvation requires the law: salvation is for ALL “jews and greeks alike”, which he repeats often.

Do you also believe Rom 4:2 refers to “works of the law”? If so why? I’ve asked the questions several times to different people, but have not gotten a decent response?

Faith does justify, but faith alone (if it has the opportunity to work and chooses not to) does not. I cannot think of a single Pauline epistle that doesn’t address the “need” for those who “have been saved” (ie justified) to behave in a particular way or avoid behaving in a particular way so that they don’t forfeit their salvation. Romans is no exception.

Well I have no confusion. I will answer the question, in fact it is an answer that must be given in order to totally understand Salvation. However, I will wait until we get closure on Rom 4:2. This is the current hinge point and the Catholic claim that the verse refers to “works of the law” only, must be substantiated.

I have given argumentation as to why it would be senseless for Paul to use such an example as the law had not been given. And why Paul didn’t use another example. I have not gotten any rebuttal.

I have given argumentation as to why it makes sense that Paul would have been speaking of “works” as he was comparing and contrasting Jews and Gentiles. I have received no rebuttal.

I have asked the question, why is everyone fine putting words “of the law” in the text when they are not there nor are they alluded to, but everyone objects to adding the word “alone” even though the nature of the statement leads to that conclusion. I have received no answer.

I’ve asked why did Paul write “works of the law” shortly before and shortly after writing “works”. Why didn’t he continue writing “works of the law” all the way through if he indeed meant “works of the law” in every case? No answer.

I’m not saying there is no Catholic position on these questions. I’m just saying they need to be given one way or another so that we can move forward. And I realize maybe it just hasn’t been enough time and the answers are coming.

 

[I_v_I]

They do not thereby stand condemned as “uninspired”! You (and I) are not the judge of such things…

Never said I was, nor did I allude to that thought. That is why I used the word “believe”. Anyway, I believe this because I think they contradict with scripture.

Your being bothered or not bothered by it seems irrelevant.

Not really. It was leading into my next comment which gives some understanding of why I’m not bothered.

That’s a bold statement - that the books of “the Bible” are there “by the Will of God” - was that revealed to you personally or publicly?? How exactly do you know this?

Not bold at all. Revealed personally and publicly.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Furthermore, you forgot to mention exactly which “canon” is the correct one and it’s important because there are different canons…

Didn’t forget to mention anything. I was not asked to mention this. Further, the particular canon is not the issue. The issue is the teachings and the understanding of these teachings. We are not Saved by the canon. We are Saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. Whatever canon that can be put together without contradiction subtraction or addition to what Jesus or the apostles taught is just fine.

It seems the focus here is on the wrong thing. Undoubtedly many people have been Saved after reading only portions of scripture, and others not reading it at all, but simply hearing parts of it. Of course the more the merrier, but a beautiful aspect of the Bible is that you don’t need it all to know enough of the Truth to be Saved. As long as you understand who Jesus is, your sinful nature and that you need to place your faith in Him only, you can be Saved.

Back to the thread at hand…

Indeed.

 

[steve_b]

Again, I am “in” no sin. I “have been Saved by grace through faith”.

Once saved always saved (OSAS) is not scriptural.

btw, why was the following post so difficult to wade into?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49
I:

Well GOD must feel really blessed that you “cooperate” with HIM. I don’t cooperate with my LORD. I am simply a servant who must yield to his MASTER.

Interesting .
I:

Isaiah 10:5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says.
9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria—
11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”

12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:

“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this,
and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
I removed the boundaries of nations,
I plundered their treasures;
like a mighty one I subdued[a] their kings.
14 As one reaches into a nest,
so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
as people gather abandoned eggs,
so I gathered all the countries;
not one flapped a wing,
or opened its mouth to chirp.’”

15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it,
or the saw boast against the one who uses it?
As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up,
or a club brandish the one who is not wood!

When you call yourself a “bible believer” what exactly does that mean? What group are you associating with?
I:

There are no details of Salvation in this???

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Again, wow. I could literally bold every single word.

Where are the details? I said those are summary statements. It doesn’t give the details or definition of

• grace
• saved
• faith
• works
• good works

Mt 25 which I associated with the point I was making, gives details in the seperation of sheep and goats based on good works. All those people being judged, both good and bad, called God Lord. They knew who He was and they called Him Lord. But THAT profession “calling God Lord,” didn’t save the ones who didn’t do good works …true? ergo, Those who didn’t do good works were seperated from the saved, were cursed and condemned. Those who DID good works, were taken to heaven.

That’s what I mean by details. Eph 2:10 tells us good works are something we must do as a summary statement, but [Mt 25:31…] gives us details of what good works means and what specifically we are to do, and what are the consequences for the one who ignores doing them…

to be continued

 

[I_v_I]

Once saved always saved (OSAS) is not scriptural.

btw, why was the following post so difficult to wade into?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49

As with a couple other topics that have come up. I’ll not address the “once Saved always Saved” just yet, because there are many issues that have yet to be cleared up thus far.

Along the same lines, with your other linked post. But more so with that one because there are several doctrinal issues that we are far apart on.

When you call yourself a “bible believer” what exactly does that mean? What group are you associating with?

I am a believer in Christ. And I believe the Bible is the truth about God. Associating with the Body of Christ, The Church.

Where are the details? I said those are summary statements. It doesn’t give the details or definition of

• grace
• saved
• faith
• works
• good works

In order for a statement to be detailed it is not necessary to define the words in the statement. Also, it is not necessary to give the details of the words themselves. However, the individual words are used to detail and define the subject at hand. In this case that subject is complete Salvation and all the words in your list detail and define Salvation and how it is attained. It is absolutely elegant!

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Due to the way I understand Salvation, these verses are all encompassing in terms of complete Salvation and Sanctification. This is it! It gives us all we need to know after understanding our condition without Christ. And it is perfectly placed because just before these verses Paul tells the church the condition they were in before Christ.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

It is so saddening to me that people can think Paul is going to give the church of Ephesus incomplete information about Salvation. Why? Why would he do this? You’ll believe we need the book of James or some other texts to accompany this in order to understand true Salvation, but what if they never had the opportunity to see these? Paul/Holy Spirit is far too intelligent to give only part of something as important as Salvation when addressing the subject directly. Also I believe he would hold something as precious as Salvation in much too high esteem to do it the injustice of only giving a portion of it.

cont…

 

[I_v_I]

Mt 25 which I associated with the point I was making, gives details in the seperation of sheep and goats based on good works. All those people being judged, both good and bad, called God Lord. They knew who He was and they called Him Lord. But THAT profession “calling God Lord,” didn’t save the ones who didn’t do good works …true? ergo, Those who didn’t do good works were seperated from the saved, were cursed and condemned. Those who DID good works, were taken to heaven.

I’ll start by saying I believe “the sheep and goat judgment” is more involved than most believe, however I wont comment much because it is still on my short list of diving into more deeply in order to understand more completely. So I won’t go at this one directly, but I will still be able to make my case.

We are all the same. Nothing in my flesh is any different than what was in Hitler’s. The only difference is God. If it had not been for the grace of God who knows what I would be. All the bad I do is done of my flesh. If I ever want to boast, all I’ll have to boast about are the evil acts I’ve committed. All the good I have ever done has come from the Holy Spirit working through me, not from I v I.

Apart from the Spirit of God, we are evil. All of us (Rom 3:9-18). Have you ever seen a verse in the Bible that said man of his flesh could do anything good? So why did some in Matt 25 do “good works”? Was it because the flesh of some believers were better than others and therefore worked with grace more so than others? Or was it because the Holy Spirit led those that did good works to do so and did not lead the others to do so?

As for both groups calling Him Lord, these are the same two groups of people James spoke of in the 2nd chapter. And the “same” two groups spoken of in Matt 7:21-23. Some truly believe, are filled with the Holy Spirit and led to do good works. Others falsely profess, do not have the Spirit and do evil “works” of their flesh.

That’s what I mean by details. Eph 2:10 tells us good works are something we must do as a summary statement, but [Mt 25:31…] gives us details of what good works means and what specifically we are to do, and what are the consequences for the one who ignores doing them…

Eph 2:10 tells us WE WILL do good works because we are filled with the Spirit of God. It even makes this more clear by telling us that these are “good works” that God Himself has prepared. We were not and could not have been the source of the good work because all we can do of our flesh is evil. James tells us we must do these good works in order to prove our profession to be true and if we don’t then we have a false faith that does not save and we will end up in the goat fold or the group that Jesus tells “I never knew you…”.

 

[Philthy]

Do you also believe Rom 4:2 refers to “works of the law”? If so why? I’ve asked the questions several times to different people, but have not gotten a decent response?

I do not believe it necessarily refers to works of the law.

Well I have no confusion. I will answer the question, in fact it is an answer that must be given in order to totally understand Salvation. However, I will wait until we get closure on Rom 4:2.

I hope my unambiguous answer has provided the “closure” you were looking for. Now please answer the question.

This is the current hinge point and the Catholic claim that the verse refers to “works of the law” only, must be substantiated.

There is no hinge point here as it relates to the broader discussion. There is context, for sure, but the larger discussion of the relationship of good works and salvation does not “hinge” upon this at all.

I have given argumentation as to why it would be senseless for Paul to use such an example as the law had not been given. And why Paul didn’t use another example. I have not gotten any rebuttal…I have given argumentation as to why it makes sense that Paul would have been speaking of “works” as he was comparing and contrasting Jews and Gentiles. I have received no rebuttal.

Knowing all that I know, I don’t see that it matters. There is a clear relationship in Scripture between salvation IN THE FULLEST SENSE (ie going to Heaven) and works (both good and bad). Your error, IMHO, is that you are taking statements regarding initial salvation and works (ie, Eph 2:8-9) and applying them to aspects of salvation (ie ongoing and final) in a manner that they were never intended to be applied.

I’m not saying there is no Catholic position on these questions. I’m just saying they need to be given one way or another so that we can move forward. And I realize maybe it just hasn’t been enough time and the answers are coming.

I honestly havent read it all. As I said above, I don’t think the distinction matters that much. Perhaps you can tell me why, IF it is true that Paul was speaking of any works, that that fact contradicts the Catholic notion of the relationship between works and salvation. I will add a caveat: when we speak of salvation we need to be sure that we are both representing the same idea with the word we choose. Salvation in the Catholic sense has a beginning (being born again) a middle (persevering in faith, hope and love) and an end (being judged worthy of Heaven); and achieving the beginning stage does not guarantee achieving the end stage. Do you agree with this presentation of salvation?
Don’t forget, you still owe me an answer to the question at the top from last post…

Blessings

 

[Cardinalsong]

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

So kvj888 there are a lot of great answers to your question but there hasn’t been a response from you since your OP on 10/23/11. What say you?:hey_bud:

 

[Philthy]

I’m going back to address some of your issues as you requested.

While I agree Paul and James were referring to “works” in two different senses, I don’t agree with your conclusion. Paul is telling us that “works” are not a part of receiving Salvation from the Lord (Romans 3:28).

This I agree with if, by “receiving Salvation” you mean one who goes from being unsaved to saved during their mortal life (ie born again, initial salvation).

He tells us it is only through faith that Salvation is given.

Again, some clarification is required. Faith is a requirement of salvation, but Paul’s concept of faith includes how one conducts themselves. This conduct is not an issue for receiving the gift of salvation, but it is for retaining it and completing it.

The reason the two do not contradict one another is because Paul is speaking of works before Salvation and James is speaking of works after Salvation. Works are not needed to obtain Salvation, however, they are needed to prove to others we are indeed Saved.

I’ll just reiterate that works are not needed to enter into salvation, but they are needed to remain in it and complete it so that when we die we are counted as sheep (Matt 25)
There is no requirement to prove anything to anyone - in fact, we are specifically instructed not to judge others, nor should others be judging us. You are off base on this idea.

In 8 and 9 we are told that Salvation is obtained through faith alone apart from works.

Again, poorly articulated. Paul expresses in Eph 2:8-9 a PAST TENSE reality, namely that your adoption into the family of God, your being born again, your initial salvation HAD nothing to do with works. “…by grace you HAVE BEEN saved.” Past tense. He is speaking of initial salvation, but he is not talking about ongoing salvation (repentance, forgiving others, loving neighbor, etc), and he is not speaking of final salvation (ie judgement)

Verse 10 tells us exactly what James tells us in his book. That after Salvation, we are led to do good works by the Holy Spirit which now dwells in us. These are the works that attest to others that we are truly Saved.

And the works that if we fail to do attest to others that we are not. Agreed?

God will not be mocked…

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Please give me some feed back on the arguments I put forth previously.

Done!

As far as your interpretations of “the woman with the issue of blood”, “the centurion” and “the man with the affliction”, it seems you are imparting your beliefs on text that is not teaching us about Salvation.

Ummm, I think it “seems” that way to you because you have imparted your beliefs on the same text and judged his through them! Two way street, friend…
The fact of the matter is that not a single person in the NT was healed by faith “alone”. In every instance an ACTION flowed from faith and Christ responded to ACTIVE FAITH in healing. This is a MEGA THEME of the NT that has escaped your notice. It’s boldest expression comes in the form of God not simply waving a wand in Heaven to save us, but instead…drum roll…“the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us”

Instead of placing our understanding of Salvation on random text we should look to the text that tells us how Salvation is attained to understand doctrine on the subject.

All of Scripture relates to salvation, including verses like “faith without works is useless”.

Check out the beginning of Romans 4. This is one text that teaches us how we are Justified.

Inaccurate! It tells us ONE way that we are justified!

Paul tells us directly that “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” He doesn’t say he “believed and worked” to be righteous in God’s sight.

James tells us exactly that! “THUS it was fulfilled that Abraham believed God…” “THUS” referring to Abraham’s ACT of faith in offering Isaac. James says that the righteousness spoken of in Gen 15 wasn’t actually fulfilled until Gen 22.

Paul even goes further to help us understand works are not needed for Salvation by telling us if we did work for it, God would have been obligated to give it to us. Therefore, it would have no longer been the free gift that scripture tells us Salvation is.

Here, again, you confuse initial salvation with our ongoing salvation. Paul has plenty to say regarding things we need to do and avoid doing in order to “inherit the Kingdom of God” (ie going to Heaven).

Still waiting for your unambiguous answer to my question regarding OSAS…

Blessings

 

[steve_b]

As with a couple other topics that have come up. I’ll not address the “once Saved always Saved” just yet, because there are many issues that have yet to be cleared up thus far.

Yet it seems you’re promoting OSAS
I:

Along the same lines, with your other linked post. But more so with that one because there are several doctrinal issues that we are far apart on.

You asked for an explanation of my response using scripture. What doctrinal issues do you want to discuss, ?
I:

I am a believer in Christ. And I believe the Bible is the truth about God. Associating with the Body of Christ, The Church.

So iow, you’re Protestant associating with Catholics
I:

In order for a statement to be detailed it is not necessary to define the words in the statement. Also, it is not necessary to give the details of the words themselves. However, the individual words are used to detail and define the subject at hand. In this case that subject is complete Salvation and all the words in your list detail and define Salvation and how it is attained. It is absolutely elegant!

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

“For” can be shorthand for “therefore,” i.e. therefore, it is by grace through faith…

iow, “for” begins a summary statement. To find out the details that statement summarizes, one needs to look at Paul’s context.
I:

Due to the way I understand Salvation, these verses are all encompassing in terms of complete Salvation and Sanctification. This is it! It gives us all we need to know after understanding our condition without Christ. And it is perfectly placed because just before these verses Paul tells the church the condition they were in before Christ.

Here again, you’re assuming OSAS.
I:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

It is so saddening to me that people can think Paul is going to give the church of Ephesus incomplete information about Salvation. Why? Why would he do this?

Can the folks at Ephesus according to Paul, continue in

• the ways of the world (a rather broad statement)
• disobedience (disobedient to what exactly?)
• gratifying the flesh (again a pretty broad subject)
• following its desires and thoughts (presumably sexual in nature but maybe broader)

Obviously not. The Ephesians WERE like that before, but have apparantly changed. Does Paul say they have nothing to worry about anymore? No. Do they still need to continue to fly right, in order that in the coming ages he (God) might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus?. Yes. Did you notice, “In order that” is a condition. If they go back to their previous lifestyle, Paul reminds them wrath will come on them…true?

But back to a previous post and point. Nothing here in [Eph 2:1-7] mentions good works that Paul talked about in [Eph 2:10] neither is their value to salvation explained in [Eph 2:1-9]. Yet we must do them. Again, a summary that asks for details. ergo Mt 25…
I:

You’ll believe we need the book of James or some other texts to accompany this in order to understand true Salvation, but what if they never had the opportunity to see these? Paul/Holy Spirit is far too intelligent to give only part of something as important as Salvation when addressing the subject directly. Also I believe he would hold something as precious as Salvation in much too high esteem to do it the injustice of only giving a portion of it.

cont…

I think I’ll disregard the hypothetical in favor of a quick little history

Since Jesus is the one the OT pointed to, and He fulfilled the OT, AND started His only Church on Peter and the apostles, the NT was written in, by and for the Catholic Church that Jesus established. The Catholic Church selected and canonized THOSE books OT and NT at the council of Rome 381 a.d. that she deemed to be scripture, which we call the bible. And that’s where the world got the bible. Due to the Protestant revolt in the 16th century, Protestants removed 7 books in their “bible” Luther also wanted to throw out James, Jude Hebrews and Revelation. Had he succeeded, Protestants would be minus 11 books instead of 7.

Therefore, since "all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching… [2 Tim 3:16] we use ALL the scriptures. Yes James too

 

[Philthy]

I’ll start by saying I believe “the sheep and goat judgment” is more involved than most believe, however I wont comment much because it is still on my short list of diving into more deeply in order to understand more completely. So I won’t go at this one directly, but I will still be able to make my case.

Your “belief” that the sheep and goat judgement is “more involved than most believe” is irrelevant. The sheep and goat judgement is pretty straight forward, unless you are burdened with trying to prove that it doesnt say what it quite obviously says. We aren’t burdened with that, but apparently you are. Your choice to not comment speaks volumes IMHO.

We are all the same.Nothing in my flesh is any different than what was in Hitler’s. The only difference is God. If it had not been for the grace of God who knows what I would be. All the bad I do is done of my flesh.

Your flesh, empowered by God, has the ability to do good or evil. It is your soul which directs your flesh - when you choose to sin you do not choose with your flesh, you act with it. Try dealing with reality - we choose good and evil, constantly.

All the good I have ever done has come from the Holy Spirit working through me, not from I v I.

This is one time you needed to include the “alone”: All the good you have ever done has not come from I v I *alone *is more accurate. Sin is always waiting, but God is faithful and he will not allow you to be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation He will provide a way out…"(1 Cor 10:13) When we are successful in doing good, it is firstly, and contingent upon God’s having empowered us with His Spirit, but it is secondarily dependent upon us choosing to cooperate with God. Unless you are prepared to admit that saved people never commit sins(highly doubtful) then you must explain why the Holy Spirit fails those people at times.

Apart from the Spirit of God, we are evil. All of us (Rom 3:9-18). Have you ever seen a verse in the Bible that said man of his flesh could do anything good? So why did some in Matt 25 do “good works”? Was it because the flesh of some believers were better than others and therefore worked with grace more so than others? Or was it because the Holy Spirit led those that did good works to do so and did not lead the others to do so?

It was neither! The Holy Spirit led ALL of them to do good works; but the Goats REJECTED those good works prepared in advance by God for them to walk in (Eph 2:10). The Sheep had the exact same leading but RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY; they actually walked the walk that God prepared for them rather than making complicated theological excuses about why they were incapable of loving their neighbor.

Some truly believe, are filled with the Holy Spirit and led to do good works. Others falsely profess, do not have the Spirit and do evil “works” of their flesh.

Just so we are clear here, what you are saying is that anyone who does an evil work or fails to do a good work when presented the opportunity is not a true believer, correct? Y or N please. In addition, you have given us the license to judge others as to whether they are true believers based exclusively on their works, correct? Y or N please.

Eph 2:10 tells us WE WILL do good works because we are filled with the Spirit of God.

Show me your translation - mine says we are “created in Christ Jesus for the good works that (God) has prepared in advance that we **SHOULD **walk in them.”

It even makes this more clear by telling us that these are “good works” that God Himself has prepared.

Im sorry but your attempted conclusion does not follow from the actual verse nor does it correspond with reality nor does it correspond with the entirety of Scripture - especially the NT where “true believers” are sinning constantly.

We were not and could not have been the source of the good work

No one ever said we are the SOURCE of the good work silly! We are the source of CHOOSING to do good by God’s grace or evil by rejecting God’s grace.

James tells us we must do these good works in order to prove our profession to be true and if we don’t then we have a false faith that does not save and we will end up in the goat fold or the group that Jesus tells “I never knew you…”.

You are correct in that our “profession” is meaningless without works; faith alone, profession alone and all the other alones don’t save you. That seems to support the Catholic position from my perspective. You are mistaken in placing all of James’ comments under the banner of “proving our profession”. Most of what he says has nothing to do with proving anything. In fact, he mentions Abraham’s offering of Isaac - which Scripture goes out of its way to tell us was done where no one could see it except Abraham and God, as Abraham left his servants at the base of the mountain.

I feel I have addressed most if not all of your arguments. I’ll await some meaningful responses from you and an answer to the OSAS issue that you held off on…

Blessings!

 

[Ignatius]

alone = not by works (of man)

The title of this thread is misleading. Good works do not equal salvation, but neither does faith alone. In fact, Scripture specifically states that faith alone cannot save you. Of course we must have Faith, but Paul does not say that “faith alone” saves us, he talks of “works of the law”, meaning to mosaic law that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Elsewhere the Bible clarifies and says explicitly that faith alone cannot save and faith without works is dead. Taking a few verses out of context will always lead you to error. You must take into account those books and verses that were written later to clarify what was written formerly. It takes a more effort to take into account all of Scripture, but that is what must be done to get to The Truth of Scripture.

Jesus, who is God incarnate, tells us what will happen when we stand before Him. Those who disobey His commands will not receive salvation, If you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven, and hence will not receive salvation.

He will say to them:
“Come,ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.”
Mat 25:34-36

 

[speedy779]

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

Okay first off Martin Luther changed that verse in Romans.
See Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible#Theology
Luther change it so he could support his theories.
Second; because Catholics follow the unchanged Bible. The one Martin Luther didn’t change.
Read:
** James 2:24
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”**

 

[I_v_I]

I do not believe it necessarily refers to works of the law.
I hope my unambiguous answer has provided the “closure” you were looking for. Now please answer the question.

I don’t believe this is unambiguous.

Let me ask the question another way. Is it the Catholic position that Romans 4:2 refers only to “works of the law” when Paul writes “works”?

Y or N

Mind you, I have no problem answering the question although you’ll seem to think I do lol. I just want to get a clear answer on the current issue before moving on.

There is no hinge point here as it relates to the broader discussion. There is context, for sure, but the larger discussion of the relationship of good works and salvation does not “hinge” upon this at all.

Maybe you are a victim of entering the discussion a bit late, but this does need to be cleared up. The claim was made that Paul was only referring to OT “works of the law” in an attempt to prove we are indeed justified before God by our NT works. Obviously my position is contrary to this so the discussion began. In order for me to understand Catholic understanding of the text I need to know if this is standard Catholic teaching.

Salvation in the Catholic sense has a beginning (being born again) a middle (persevering in faith, hope and love) and an end (being judged worthy of Heaven); and achieving the beginning stage does not guarantee achieving the end stage. Do you agree with this presentation of salvation?

Don’t forget, you still owe me an answer to the question at the top from last post…

Just looking for a Y or N

 

[I_v_I]

And the works that if we fail to do attest to others that we are not. Agreed?

Agreed.

 

[I_v_I]

Again, some clarification is required. Faith is a requirement of salvation, but Paul’s concept of faith includes how one conducts themselves. This conduct is not an issue for receiving the gift of salvation, but it is for retaining it and completing it.

I’ll just reiterate that works are not needed to enter into salvation, but they are needed to remain in it and complete it so that when we die we are counted as sheep (Matt 25)
There is no requirement to prove anything to anyone - in fact, we are specifically instructed not to judge others, nor should others be judging us. You are off base on this idea.

Pretty sure I’m not off base. What verses are you using to support your claim that we are not to “judge” whether or not someone is a believer? Seems that would cause lots of problems with false teachings. Aren’t you judging my doctrine?

Again, poorly articulated. Paul expresses in Eph 2:8-9 a PAST TENSE reality, namely that your adoption into the family of God, your being born again, your initial salvation HAD nothing to do with works. “…by grace you HAVE BEEN saved.” Past tense. He is speaking of initial salvation, but he is not talking about ongoing salvation (repentance, forgiving others, loving neighbor, etc), and he is not speaking of final salvation (ie judgement)

It is only “poorly articulated” if you don’t agree, otherwise it’s articulated well enough.

And the works that if we fail to do attest to others that we are not. Agreed?

I agree with this, but now I’m a bit confused. I thought you believed there is nothing to prove to man and man isn’t to judge anyone’s profession.

 

[I_v_I]

Ummm, I think it “seems” that way to you because you have imparted your beliefs on the same text and judged his through them! Two way street, friend…
The fact of the matter is that not a single person in the NT was healed by faith “alone”. In every instance an ACTION flowed from faith and Christ responded to ACTIVE FAITH in healing. This is a MEGA THEME of the NT that has escaped your notice.

It definitely has and it seems this “mega theme” was lost on Jesus as well, so I think I’m in good company.

Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you,I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. …13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

Matt 9:1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Matt 9: 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.

Matt 9:27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”

28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”

“Yes, Lord,” they replied.

29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.

Matt 15:27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Mark 1: 29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.

Mark 9:21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”

“From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”

23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”

24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out…

The fact of the matter is that Jesus’ focus was always on faith and belief. No attention to “works” what so ever. Why do you think that is? Due to the evidence it is much more likely that you’ll are reading your beliefs into the text rather than me.

Follow Jesus and you’ll never go wrong… follow man and…

 

[I_v_I]

Your “belief” that the sheep and goat judgement is “more involved than most believe” is irrelevant. The sheep and goat judgement is pretty straight forward, unless you are burdened with trying to prove that it doesnt say what it quite obviously says. We aren’t burdened with that, but apparently you are. Your choice to not comment speaks volumes IMHO.

And how would you know if it is irrelevant? Must be because a man has already given you the complete infallible understanding of this text. As a matter of fact I wouldn’t be surprised if you “understood” all of scripture perfectly lol. I have no burdens nor contradictions from this or any other text, nor do I have the burden of placing my eternal Salvation in the hands of Popes.

Your flesh, empowered by God, has the ability to do good or evil. It is your soul which directs your flesh - when you choose to sin you do not choose with your flesh, you act with it. Try dealing with reality - we choose good and evil, constantly.

lol @ “try dealing with reality”. Such arrogance and so little understanding. How bout you try dealing with scripture instead of your “reality”?

Galations 5: 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19** The acts of the flesh** are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

When we are successful in doing good, it is firstly, and contingent upon God’s having empowered us with His Spirit, but it is secondarily dependent upon us choosing to cooperate with God. Unless you are prepared to admit that saved people never commit sins(highly doubtful) then you must explain why the Holy Spirit fails those people at times.

So the God you believe in needs your cooperation too? My LORD doesn’t need anything from me. Nothing at all. My God never fails! My God never attempts! My God never asks me to do anything.

When a true believer sins, they sin of their own flesh, apart from the Spirit of God. At that time the believer is “walking by the flesh”. Anytime they do good they are “walking by the Spirit” apart from the flesh.

It was neither! The Holy Spirit led ALL of them to do good works; but the Goats REJECTED those good works prepared in advance by God for them to walk in (Eph 2:10). The Sheep had the exact same leading but RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY; they actually walked the walk that God prepared for them rather than making complicated theological excuses about why they were incapable of loving their neighbor.

I see the God you believe in is able to be overpowered by man. This is not a characteristic of my God.

Where do you find that the sheep and goats “had the exact same leading”? Or are you reading into the text again?

Just so we are clear here, what you are saying is that anyone who does an evil work or fails to do a good work when presented the opportunity is not a true believer, correct? Y or N please.

No.

In addition, you have given us the license to judge others as to whether they are true believers based exclusively on their works, correct? Y or N please.

No.

Show me your translation - mine says we are “created in Christ Jesus for the good works that (God) has prepared in advance that we **SHOULD **walk in them.”

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

When my God creates, the creation does exactly as He created it to do. Exactly!

Im sorry but your attempted conclusion does not follow from the actual verse nor does it correspond with reality nor does it correspond with the entirety of Scripture - especially the NT where “true believers” are sinning constantly.
No one ever said we are the SOURCE of the good work silly! We are the source of CHOOSING to do good by God’s grace or evil by rejecting God’s grace.

Forgive me for not taking your expert understanding of scripture.

No one ever said believers don’t sin constantly sir.