Good work = salvation is it true?

[steve_b]

1. The question was about characteristics (i.e. [looks, voice, mind, vision, etc.]) of God’s creations. Do you believe He indeed creates them and their characteristics as He pleases?

In the frame of mind of:
Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

okay i see where you’re going. Chances are, if 2 homely people have children, the kids won’t come out looking like movie stars. But yeah, since all life comes from God, he creates everybody’s physical characteristics too.
I:

I don’t agree with the views of the author.

Not to make this an author thing, do you have just one specific view you’re refering to?
I:

I don’t doubt this, however I’m referring more towards his understanding of what I believe. He does not characterize my understanding exactly and therefore some of his arguments aren’t exactly valid for me. If you use his views of Predestination for discussion’s sake, they won’t necessarily be accurate for me.

Again, I’m sure at some point we’ll get into specifics
I:

Ok. So we agree on the concept of “free will”.

As long as we agree it’s free, then I think we agree.
I:

Restate this one for me. I think I’m being slow.

When I said "a properly formed conscience impacts our will positively, such that we freely choose to act in certain ways and NOT in other ways, " I’m thinking of what Peter said. (btw, this passage could also be used to contradict OSAS)

2 Pet 1:

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection,* love**. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. *
I:

It is my understanding from the scriptures that man left freely to either accept or reject grace of his own “natural will” will always reject it.

So free will is not truly free? Grace is a gift. Some people value gifts others throw gifts in the corner. Is a person not free to do that?
I:

The Bible tells us that there is nothing good about the “flesh”/“natural man” that would enable him to willingly turn to God’s grace (Rom 3:10-12).

ergo we are saved by grace 1st, through faith…, because we can’t make that 1st step towards God given our fallen nature. He makes the 1st step towards us and gives us grace so we can make the step towards Him.
I:

We are all “fools” rejecting God at some point in our lives. Those who come to a true faith in Christ are made to come to that faith by the Supernatural workings of God Himself - Saving Grace. When God imparts this Saving Grace on natural man, they are undoubtedly Saved because God cannot fail. If He “tries” to Save, He Saves. There is no stopping God when He “tries” to accomplish something. Man cannot reject the Supernatural will of God, if we could, none would turn to Him.

Calvin might say that, but that’s NOT what scripture says.

Example

• Lucifer and the other angels, all creatures created by God, were in the presence of God in heaven. And they rebelled. The angels weren’t capable of rejecting God?
• see also Peter’s quote (above).

God gave us a truly radical power in free will. We really CAN choose God or reject Him by His own design. God didn’t incarnate, live, suffer, die a horrible death, start a Church and ascend back to heaven for a world of robots. You don’t do all that for robots. He doesn’t violate free will that He gave us. It’s what makes us truly culpable for what we do or don’t do. People imo inspite of revelation, still create a god of THEIR own making.
I:

Gen 18:14** Is anything too hard for the LORD?** I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”

Psa 115:3 Our God is in heaven;
he does whatever pleases him.

Psa 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.

Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

In light of these verses… How does Catholic teaching answer the seeming contradiction of God wanting all to be Saved, but not being able to? If He is all powerful, how is it possible man can reject His will?

Why equate the gift of free will God gave humanity, with contradicting His power? He gives us the radical possibility of partaking in His divine nature ALSO if we do things HIS way.[2 Pet 1:4] . The power God gives us, and is offering us, is soooooo incredible if we do things HIS way. But we have to do it HIS way. There’s no contradictions here. God did His part. That doen’t translate into we don’t have our part to do.

 

[kaizen]

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

Neither “good works” nor “faith alone” justifies. An unbabtized person needs the Sacrament of Baptism to be justified. An already baptized Catholic who committed mortal sin needs the Sacrament of Reconciliation (“confession”) to be justified. Of course, both requires faith and good works (i.e. going to the priest, praying, doing penance, etc.), but these two will never justify a person.

 

[I_v_I]

I think that your very existence, lvl, is a testament to the fallacy of the above statement.

You would not be here except for the cooperation of your parents with God’s will in order for them to be co-creators with Him.

No! I would not be here had it not been in God’s Will, period. It has very little to do with my parents. They were simply God’s chosen vessel to get me here. That is the extent of their involvement.

Do you honestly believe that my parents knew that the Will of God was for me to be conceived the year, month, day, hour, minute, second that I was? If not then how exactly were they cooperating with His will?

I am in awe! Co- creators?!?!?! That is darn near - if not outright blasphemous. My parents had absolutely no (name removed by moderator)ut in “creating” me besides the obvious. He ordained my parents to conceive me and because He ordained it to be - it was so. The Lord and only the Lord creates and He needs no assistance! They were simply the vessels used.

Each and every time a child comes into the world we have verification that your statement above is false.

My DH and I cooperated with God in accomplishing His Will that our 4 children come into existence.

In your understanding, is a rape victim and the rapist cooperating with God’s Will if they conceive a child?

This is one of the best examples of what I believe the root of the problem is here. Catholic teachings seem to lead one to think much more highly of themselves than the Bible tells us we should. One of the main points of the Bible is to reveal to man just how weak and feeble we are. The vast majority of this concept seems to be lost in Catholic teachings besides the belief of the need for “initial salvation”.

You’ll believe The Almighty God needs your cooperation to accomplish His will in spite of the Bible telling you blatantly that God’s will is always accomplished just as He wishes. And in your case, you even believe God needs your cooperation to create. How can you not see the folly in this? Raising man - Lowering God

Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

You believe Christ’s shed blood on the cross was not a sufficient sacrifice for your sins. Therefore, you believe you must add works in your own power (your own sacrifices) to cover what His blood was not sufficiently able to accomplish. And you don’t see that you might as well be sacrificing bulls and goats each day. Raising man - Lowering God

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

You believe, Christ is not able to hold you in His hands without your help. You believe you are stronger through your sin, than He and the Father, although He tells us no one is. Raising man - Lowering God

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

You believe you can overpower Christ by rejecting the “grace” He is trying to give you, however He can’t because your rejection of Him is too powerful. Raising man - Lowering God

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me,** that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” **

The teachings of the Catholic faith do not describe the All Powerful God of the Bible. Rather He has been made to seem weak, so much so that He is even subservient to man.

Nor do the teachings describe the utterly fallen, totally helpless predicament man is in. Man is absolutely no good without God making him/her any good continuously. Anything man does of His own power is worthless in the eyes of God, therefore all the “good works” you believe you do of your own power would be abhorrent to Him. God must will a true believer to do “good works” by His spirit even after one has been Saved. Instead, you seem to believe man just needs a Supernatural wake up call by way of Jesus’ sacrifice and then it is off to work to secure your salvation.

Jesus the Christ did it all! Believers in Him do nothing of themselves, God in the Spirit does “good works” through those who believe and trust in Him. He works the “good works” through you. You of your flesh do nothing!

Phil 2:13 for **it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. **

You’ll must realize your place with respect to you and God.

Job 25:6 how much less a mortal, who is but a maggot—
a human being, who is only a worm!”

 

[Farsight001]

Incorrect. I have a wife and baby on the way. While my life is far from perfect I have friends and family that I would be selfishly leaving behind and several that have yet to come to Christ. Additionally, I realize through the scriptures that while this life pales in comparison to Heaven, this life is where I “earn” my eternal rewards with good works(NOT SALVATION). By cutting my time, by sinning no less, I don’t just reduce my eternal rewards through the good works I could do, but I suffer loss due to the sin of suicide.

1 Cor 3:11-15, Luke 12:33, Luke 16:11

So what you’re saying is that you’re staying alive for eternal rewards. In other words, you’re in it for what you can get out of it. That is just as selfish and taking your own life to get to heaven sooner and hurting your friends and family as a result.

I must agree with the sentiments that you don’t really believe this. Consciously, you may be convince of it, but some part of you realizes it’s wrong or you would have, as the other user said, taken your own life by now to get to heaven sooner - and to continue with that logic, you would have also murdered your saved loved ones so that they could get to heaven sooner as well.

 

[I_v_I]

So what you’re saying is that you’re staying alive for eternal rewards. In other words, you’re in it for what you can get out of it. That is just as selfish and taking your own life to get to heaven sooner and hurting your friends and family as a result.

I must agree with the sentiments that you don’t really believe this. Consciously, you may be convince of it, but some part of you realizes it’s wrong or you would have, as the other user said, taken your own life by now to get to heaven sooner - and to continue with that logic, you would have also murdered your saved loved ones so that they could get to heaven sooner as well.

lol. I hope you don’t read the Bible like you read posts. I find many people fall into the trap of seeing only what they want to see and omitting the rest. Doing so in posts is disingenuous, but doing so with the Bible is dangerous. Since you have shown the tendency here, it may be a good idea to check whether you fall into this group in Bible reading.

 

[Farsight001]

lol. I hope you don’t read the Bible like you read posts. I find many people fall into the trap of seeing only what they want to see and omitting the rest. Doing so in posts is disingenuous, but doing so with the Bible is dangerous. Since you have shown the tendency here, it may be a good idea to check whether you fall into this group in Bible reading.

You in no way responded to what I said, but merely vaguely suggested I didn’t understand what I read. Try actually responding to what I type this time. I only took your reasoning and brought it out to a conclusion that was abhorrent to show that your reasoning must be flawed. I didn’t misunderstand what you said. I took YOUR reasoning and logic and applied it to something else. You think killing your family and committing suicide is wrong? Well according to YOUR logic, you should, which proves that something is seriously wrong with your logic.

 

[Philthy]

I would not be here had it not been in God’s Will, period.

 

[Philthy]

lol. I hope you don’t read the Bible like you read posts.

 

[Philthy]

What verse do you use to understand that “He has bound Himself to respect your choices”?

I never claimed to have derived this thought from “a verse” but a couple that come to mind - among dozens - are:
Rom 2:6- He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

2Cor 9:6 “whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.”

Gal 6:7 “Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap”

Do you not see what I see?

Philthy:

So then you, and all believers by extension, only do what God wants you to do, right?

I v I:

When I say “want”, I mean “it is in God’s will”, meaning if it happens, it was in God’s sovereign will for it to happen, because if it wasn’t it wouldn’t have happened. And if it doesn’t happen it was not in God’s sovereign will for it to happen because if it was it would have happened.

So then you, and all believers by extension, only do what God wills that they do, right?

Sins are indeed in the Sovereign will of God, if they were not then no one would sin.

Well, actually we were in the process of understanding the role of Sovereignty and it’s relationship - exactly - with what actually happens on earth, so it’s a kinda begging the question by phrasing it this way, yaknow?
I would say that God’s sovereign will is perfectly expressed in Heaven, but not perfectly expressed here on earth. That is why Christ prayed, and taught us to pray, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven” It’s a prayer request, not a statement of fact…

God’s Sovereign will will always be done. Nothing can stop His will, He is all powerful. However, there is another aspect of God’s will and that is His revealed will. This is what God tells us He “wants” and He definitely tells us He doesn’t want us to sin.

If you believe you have even remotely explained anything here you are sadly mistaken. You never quite reconcile how God’s Sovereign Will, which “will always be done”, and which “includes sin” is somehow consistent with God having a “revealed will” that commands us NOT to sin. In fact, if “Sins are indeed… the Sovereign will of God”, then our FAILING to sin would be directly against His Sovereign will! God help us - but first make up your mind! Honestly - this is no foundation to be building from. And, BTW, I’d like to see some bible verses on this distinction - sovereign vs revealed will, but I won’t hold my breath.

I’ll be waiting for some serious replies, you are falling quite far behind.

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

No! I would not be here had it not been in God’s Will, period.

Well, l v l, that’s very Catholic of you to say!

It has very little to do with my parents.

LOL!

You really don’t believe that old myth that your parents told you that the stork delivered you to their doorstep, do you?

Seriously, l v l, of course it had a lot to do with your parents. If they had chose a different day, a different time, it would be 2 different little cells that came together and a totally different creation–all willed by God the Creator, of course!

They were simply God’s chosen vessel to get me here. That is the extent of their involvement.

Indeed. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

But in their cooperation with God’s Will you came into existence.

Do you honestly believe that my parents knew that the Will of God was for me to be conceived the year, month, day, hour, minute, second that I was?

No, not at all.

If not then how exactly were they cooperating with His will?

By using the marital embrace to let God bless them with you of course!

By choosing to continue with the pregnancy and not aborting you.

By doing all the things that helped to bring you here, delivering you to your home all safe and snug.

By doing the right things.

When they did the wrong things (if they did), then it was due to their sinful choices and their lack of cooperation with God’s will, and then God still creates good out of that.

 

[PRmerger]

I am in awe! Co- creators?!?!?! That is darn near - if not outright blasphemous.

Simmer down, friend.

We parents are co-creators indeed.

Just like we are co-redeemers with Christ. *** We *save souls, too. (But only, of course, through our participation with the atoning death of Christ.)

And if you have a problem with the above concept, then you have a problem with St. Paul declaring him to be able to save souls.

Check this out, l v l: "If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them.—"Romans 11:14

and this:

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this** thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.**”–1 Timothy 4:16

 

[PRmerger]

In your understanding, is a rape victim and the rapist cooperating with God’s Will if they conceive a child?

This is a fair point.

But I think I addressed that in post #128 when I stated: When they did the wrong things (if they did), then it was due to their sinful choices and their lack of cooperation with God’s will, and then God still creates good out of that.

This is one of the best examples of what I believe the root of the problem is here. Catholic teachings seem to lead one to think much more highly of themselves than the Bible tells us we should.

I am sad that you feel that you are not little less than an angel.

One of the main points of the Bible is to reveal to man just how weak and feeble we are.

Absolutely not. The main point of the Bible is to show us God’s plan of salvation for us.

And that we were so loved–and worthy of love–that he gave us his only begotten son.

You’ll believe The Almighty God needs your cooperation to accomplish His will

No, not needs. God needs nothing.

… in spite of the Bible telling you blatantly that God’s will is always accomplished just as He wishes.

God’s will always is accomplished, l v l. You are quite Catholic when you say this. St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this centuries ago when he discussed God’s antecedent will and God’s consequent will.

God, in one sense, does not and cannot “change”. And all that occurs is part of His Will. However, there’s a difference between God’s antecedent will, and God’s consequent will. The antecedent will is, essentially and inevitably, fulfilled. The consequent will, however, is that which has its origins in our choices.

And in your case, you even believe God needs your cooperation to create. How can you not see the folly in this?

Then you call St. Paul’s words folly when he claims that he saves.

And those who call Moses the lawgiver–do you believe they are proclaiming blasphemy?

Or does everyone understand that we create, we save, we give laws only in and through our participation in the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lamb of God who takes away our sins?

You believe Christ’s shed blood on the cross was not a sufficient sacrifice for your sins.

Absolutely not. Christ’s sacrifice was the only sacrifice which atoned for the sins of the world.

Therefore, you believe you must add works in your own power (your own sacrifices) to cover what His blood was not sufficiently able to accomplish.

We only see it the way the Bible sees it–we make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ.

(I trust that you don’t have a problem with St. Paul’s words in Colossians 1:24).

 

[Philthy]

Well, l v l, that’s very Catholic of you to say!
LOL!
You really don’t believe that old myth that your parents told you that the stork delivered you to their doorstep, do you?
Seriously, l v l, of course it had a lot to do with your parents. If they had chose a different day, a different time, it would be 2 different little cells that came together and a totally different creation–all willed by God the Creator, of course!

Indeed. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

But in their cooperation with God’s Will you came into existence.

No, not at all.

By using the marital embrace to let God bless them with you of course!

By choosing to continue with the pregnancy and not aborting you.

By doing all the things that helped to bring you here, delivering you to your home all safe and snug.

By doing the right things.

When they did the wrong things (if they did), then it was due to their sinful choices and their lack of cooperation with God’s will, and then God still creates good out of that.

 

[I_v_I]

Again, you have not answered the question, you have merely begged it. Let me restate the problem clearly and then I will repose the question for you.
Here, is the problem: you and I disagree on exactly what “the Word of God tells us” with respect to this issue of God’s Sovereignty and it’s relationship to our free will. Your position (and mine!) is also at odds with other Protestant denominations - all of which are led by people who use the “word of God” as their ultimate source for understanding the faith. In summary the problem is: based upon our understanding of the word of God, we disagree. Using the word of God and not being able to agree on what, exactly it says is not a good thing - agreed? I can only presume you agree since your actions of attempting to convince me of the truth can only be understood as such. And now, here is the question - again - which you haven’t quite answered, but which we would like answered:
What, EXACTLY, do you do to resolve such situations other than ignore others as being less inspired (in their understanding of Scripture) than yourself?

I actually did tell you exactly what I do:

“delete all seeming contradictions the Bible contains.”

I even gave examples so you would know what I meant:

"If the Bible says God never fails and God always does as He pleases, then this must hold true throughout all of scripture. If you have made a conclusion that God fails or His will is not done at any point, then you know you have come to an errant conclusion and you must deduce another conclusion that makes both the text you are reviewing and in this case, God’s characteristics true. "

If there are two apposing doctrines (referring to scripture that is sufficiently supportable), the one without contradiction is correct because the Bible does not contradict itself.

 

[I_v_I]

okay i see where you’re going. Chances are, if 2 homely people have children, the kids won’t come out looking like movie stars. But yeah, since all life comes from God, he creates everybody’s physical characteristics too.

Not to make this an author thing, do you have just one specific view you’re refering to?

No there were a few.

When I said "a properly formed conscience impacts our will positively, such that we freely choose to act in certain ways and NOT in other ways, " I’m thinking of what Peter said.

Ok. I think I agree with what you are saying, and in my understanding what you are saying is exactly what James’ point is in James 2. I would probably word your statement by saying, “a Spirit led life, which properly forms the conscience will result in a positive impact on our will, leading to good works.”

(btw, this passage could also be used to contradict OSAS)

I disagree. 2 Peter 1 gives us the same idea James gives us. A faith without good works is not proven/confirmed, so it is a dead faith because there is no “eternal gain” from it, nor is there any temporal comfort since you can’t be sure you have been justified.

2 Peter 1: 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Do you believe the “good attributes” in 5-7 are spirit led or flesh led?

In verse 10 we see that Peter wasn’t warning us that those who had been Saved and don’t do these things would fall from Salvation, but that their Salvation would not be confirmed. This is the same point James makes in James 2. Then Peter goes on to tell us what we can expect as true believers if we do these things, a rich welcome into Heaven. What I was speaking of in the “suicide” posts. Not everyone who is Saved will receive a “rich welcome”, even though compared with the alternative it would seem so.

So free will is not truly free? Grace is a gift. Some people value gifts others throw gifts in the corner. Is a person not free to do that?

Free will is truly free in the sense that we do everything we want to do and are never forced to do anything other than what we choose to do.

Ex: Two glasses of juice sit in front of us, apple and orange. If we want apple we will never be made to just deal with having to drink the orange against our will. We will pick the apple because that is what we want. But at the same time, that is what the will of God had in store for you before you knew you even wanted the apple juice. So you made your own choice, however, your choice was preordained by God because His Sovereign Will is always done.

So if we were to substitute the apple and orange juice for accepting and rejecting God’s gift of Salvation, the same would hold true. God will not make someone who wants to accept the gift reject it. As a matter of fact, no man of His own flesh wants to accept the gift. So those that reject do it in accordance with their own will. As for those who do accept the gift, they accept because they truly want to do so. But because a man in his/her own flesh can’t accept the gift apart from God giving them the will to do so, we see that the human will is a result of God’s Sovereign Will. A person is free to make their own choice of their own will, but their will perfectly aligns with the Sovereign Will of God.

Calvin might say that, but that’s NOT what scripture says.

Scripture tells us man cannot turn to God unless God wills it to be so and scripture also tells us that God’s will is always done.

Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in
the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Dead people can do nothing but stay dead without God resurrecting or giving a rebirth.

Job 42: 2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Example

• Lucifer and the other angels, all creatures created by God, were in the presence of God in heaven. And they rebelled. The angels weren’t capable of rejecting God?

Sure they were capable of rejecting God, but only because it was in God’s Sovereign will that it happen. If it wasn’t we are told through scripture that it would never have happened. Do you think God was surprised when they rebelled? If not, and you believe He is omniscient then you must believe He knew it before He even created them. Had the case been, it wasn’t in His will for them to rebel, He would have created them differently.

 

[I_v_I]

*]see also Peter’s quote (above).

God gave us a truly radical power in free will. We really CAN choose God or reject Him by His own design. God didn’t incarnate, live, suffer, die a horrible death, start a Church and ascend back to heaven for a world of robots. You don’t do all that for robots. He doesn’t violate free will that He gave us. It’s what makes us truly culpable for what we do or don’t do. People imo inspite of revelation, still create a god of THEIR own making.

Yes, I agree we can reject God, but even when we do it is in His Sovereign will.Of course we are not robots, we are much more than that. I also agree He doesn’t violate our free will, even though He changes our will in order that we turn to Him. We still choose to turn to Him. But I don’t think you realize just how right you are when you say “that He gave us”. He indeed gave us our will and that is in fact the only way we have a will, He had to give it to us. And He gave us the exact free will that He wanted us to have. And He knew the exact results of giving us the free will He gave us before giving it to us.

Why equate the gift of free will God gave humanity, with contradicting His power? He gives us the radical possibility of partaking in His divine nature ALSO if we do things HIS way.[2 Pet 1:4] . The power God gives us, and is offering us, is soooooo incredible if we do things HIS way. But we have to do it HIS way. There’s no contradictions here. God did His part. That doen’t translate into we don’t have our part to do.

You’ll definitely have contradictions with God’s power, there is no doubt. You tell me it is God’s will that everyone is Saved, you say He gives everyone “grace” so that they have the possibility to turn to Him, but they don’t. You tell me He tries as hard as He can, and still people wont believe. This is surely a contradiction if you believe God is All Powerful.

I have given several verses from the Bible that help us understand His Sovereign will and only one conclusion can be made from them. His Sovereign will is always accomplished, nothing can stop it or go against it. Everything works the exact way He Sovereignly wills it to work. However, you’ll tell me that everyone who doesn’t believe in Christ thwarts His will. You indeed have a contradiction with your idea of free will vs. God’s power.

 

[I_v_I]

You in no way responded to what I said, but merely vaguely suggested I didn’t understand what I read. Try actually responding to what I type this time. I only took your reasoning and brought it out to a conclusion that was abhorrent to show that your reasoning must be flawed. I didn’t misunderstand what you said. I took YOUR reasoning and logic and applied it to something else. You think killing your family and committing suicide is wrong? Well according to YOUR logic, you should, which proves that something is seriously wrong with your logic.

There was nothing valid in your post for me to respond to, besides you seeing the part you wanted and leaving the parts you didn’t want to deal with. In doing so you clearly missed the entire point.

 

[Farsight001]

There was nothing valid in your post for me to respond to, besides you seeing the part you wanted and leaving the parts you didn’t want to deal with. In doing so you clearly missed the entire point.

Then explain why I’m wrong. Again, I merely took YOUR reasoning and re-applied it. Did I fail to actually use your reasoning? If so, in what way? If not, what else did I do wrong? Simply stating that I didn’t properly respond is just a counter-claim. It brings nothing to the table.

This is a discussion forum, man. Discuss! The fact that you aren’t simply implies that you can’t, which of course in turn tells me I hit the nail on the head. If you want to show me I’m wrong, you’re doing the exact opposite.

 

[I_v_I]

Well, l v l, that’s very Catholic of you to say!

I don’t mind making a statement Catholics also believe. I am not aligned with a dueling denomination, I am aligned with the Word of God. If it aligns I am all for it. If it doesn’t I’m totally against it.

Seriously, l v l, of course it had a lot to do with your parents. If they had chose a different day, a different time, it would be 2 different little cells that came together and a totally different creation–all willed by God the Creator, of course!

I was speaking in terms of “cooperating with God’s will”, you spoke as if they had the ability to change God’s plan. My point was it would have been God’s will even if they had chosen a different day. They had no (name removed by moderator)ut in the process besides them doing what they wanted to do. God’s plan was already set and it went off without a hitch.

But in their cooperation with God’s Will you came into existence.

What was their alternative? Since you seem to believe man can alter God’s plan, how do you know it wasn’t God’s plan to have me one day prior, but my parents got delayed because of a flat tire?

By using the marital embrace to let God bless them with you of course!

How do you know I was a blessing in their eyes? Would they have been cooperating with God’s will had they been using contraception?

By choosing to continue with the pregnancy and not aborting you.

What if they wanted to, but the only reason they weren’t able to was due to lack of money. Would they still have been cooperating?

By doing all the things that helped to bring you here, delivering you to your home all safe and snug.

My mother could have been so distraught that she wasn’t going to be able to take care of me that she was going to attempt mother son suicide, but on her way to the cliff she needed gas and she bought a scratch off lotto ticket with her last dollar and won $10k so she decided to forgo the suicide because now she would have a much better chance. Was she cooperating with God’s will?

By doing the right things.

What exactly are the right things? If there is no set plan there are no “right things” anything would be fine.

When they did the wrong things (if they did), then it was due to their sinful choices and their lack of cooperation with God’s will, and then God still creates good out of that.

So in those cases that they made sinful choices were they cooperating with God’s will and if not, was God’s will still done? Was God caught off guard by any of their sinful acts because they weren’t in His “plan”?

 

[I_v_I]

Simmer down, friend.

We parents are co-creators indeed.

Just like we are co-redeemers with Christ. *** We ***save souls, too. (But only, of course, through our participation with the atoning death of Christ.)

And if you have a problem with the above concept, then you have a problem with St. Paul declaring him to be able to save souls.

Check this out, l v l: "If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them.—"Romans 11:14

and this:

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this** thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.**”–1 Timothy 4:16

Point taken . I thought you were coming from a whole other place.