Good work = salvation is it true?

[I_v_I]

It appears that our friend IvI - true to his/her name - prefers the internal debate of I vs I rather than the rigors of confronting “contradictory” opinions from others.

Got to be more witty…

Certainly the rubric which he put forward as the means for resolving differences of opinions of interpretations of Scripture is completely unworkable because it fails to account for the fact that the reason people disagree is because they have contradictory opinions of which is the contradictory position.

 

[I_v_I]

The entire NT speaks of our actions and their consequences.

Ummmm… of course our actions have consequences. But tell me what action “work” you can do that leads to Salvation that is throughout “the entire NT” as you put it.

I will assume your are referring to all the healings done by Jesus again. Well I pointed out to you with scripture that Jesus always referred to their faith healing them, never to their “good works”. How this does not give you pause is a wonder, yet even so it is explained by scripture.

Those who choose not to see this will no doubt justify it by saying “well they had to do something”. And no matter how passive the “action”, they will widdle that “good works” stick down to a nub, from walking or talking all the way down to hearing or breathing for sure. Just to “be right”, while all the while **dead **wrong.

PRmerger eloquently and gently put forward the challenge that if our actions don’t have consequences - if they don’t affect God or salvific issues - then why do we pray for ourselves, others, change, etc?

I’ve never stated our actions don’t have consequences. However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God. If it happens, it happens because God Willed it to be so and vice versa. To believe otherwise is again to contradict with the vast amount of scriptures that states God’s Will is always done. However, again you’ll don’t mind doing this.

As for the non challenging question of why do “we” pray… it depends on who PR is referring to with “we”. Those who understand that it is best God’s Will be done and that God’s Will is always done and will always be done, pray just that. They pray for all that they want and desire, but pray it to be done** IF AND ONLY IF** it is in His Will, not simply because it is their own.

It seems many here pray that their own will be done instead of God’s. And if you don’t then why don’t you? Is it because of another contradiction? Do you not dare to practice before the Almighty what you preach before men? How many times have you prayed that the Lord change His Will so that it aligns with your own? Do you think every time a Believer prays, their prayer is answered? Why is that?

To be more specific about why I pray… I pray because I am commanded to do so, I pray because I fear and love God, I pray because it is an awesome opportunity to be able to speak to God, and more on topic; I pray because I want certain things to be done in my life and the lives of others.

While I do this however, I understand that prayer is a means God instituted to accomplish His Will through man, not a loophole with which man can circumvent God’s Will. This is along the same vein as Salvation and child birth as spoken of earlier. In order for certain things to happen, they must be prayed for. Does this mean that these things are done simply as a result of man’s will to pray for them? No. If they are done it is because it was God’s Will that the man prayed for them to be done and as a result the man prayed for those things.

Now, why do you’ll pray? And when you pray, do you pray in the flesh or in the Spirit? So, where does the merit lie?

A deafening silence was heard as this very practical issue was never addressed by I v I, …

That deafening silence you heard was my new born crying… must be even louder than I thought.

…who has apparently chosen to retreat back into the monologue of I v I rather than deal with the contradictions of his theology in the manner he proposed.

Blessings!

I have never and will never as long as I’m in this flesh, claim to have a perfect understanding of scripture. But for you, while wading in the flood of contradictions you are currently in to say I have contradictions… now that is comedy - albeit a sad one. Totally makes up for the bad I vs I jokes.

 

[paul_c]

Understanding the Word is not about “confronting contradictory opinions from others”, it is first and foremost about receiving and being taught by the Spirit leading to the ability to confront and dissect “seeming contradictions” in the Word Itself. Those who are more immature in Biblical understanding or blind to it all together due to lack of the Spirit are more often fine with following a doctrine that teaches Biblical contradictions (the Bible through faulty understanding contradicting itself). If your Biblical understanding (however you came to that understanding) of a topic leads to a contradiction with another scripture, then your understanding of the particular topic is incorrect. You’ll have exhibited many of these, and have been shown in scripture how you contradict and yet you don’t care to see it.

You are right that if your interpretation of scripture contradicts another scripture passage, then one or both of your interpretations are wrong. Clearly, if you find yourself ignoring parts of scripture because they contradict what you believe, then you are simply fooling yourself.

The Bible teaches that “good works” indeed have a direct connection to Salvation. However, the “good works” don’t lead to Salvation, they are a result of Salvation.

I think this may be a definitional problem. Here’s what the Catholic Church teaches:

God reaches out to every man. Those that answer his call and desire to do his will recieve grace sufficient to be saved in the sacrament of baptism. Grace is freely given to all those that request it in this way as is the forgiveness of all prior sin and membership in his one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We stay in this state of grace by doing what God wills for us, which is to love Him and our neighbors as ourselves. (Love is doing work for the good of others without expecting anything in return). The Grace to do his works is strengthened through prayer, good works and expecially the eucharist. . However, if we turn from God through mortal sin, refusing to do his will for us, then we fall from Grace and will be condemned unless we reconcile with him. You can return to the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). God will always accept us back as long as we request it willingly and are willing to make reparations. If you die in the state of Grace, you will enter heaven.

So while you enter the state of grace without any works, you must do works of love to stay in the state of grace and ultimately to enter into heaven.

No, I understand that Truth by searching scripture teachings that speak on the topic of Salvation. Context is key.

Context IS key. If you read scripture with the Catholic context that I have just laid out for you, you will find that it all fits.

Not gently, nor harshly, just wrongly. You’ll trust in yourselves in one sentence and say it’s all God in the next. Contradiction. Man’s actions of the flesh are worthless in terms of attaining Salvation. You can do absolutely nothing of your own power to merit Salvation. It is God’s actions through man that has “real salvific consequences”. Your understanding contradicts with scripture that tells us the flesh counts for nothing, and nothing good comes from it. Yet you don’t mind…

Your difficulty comes from misunderstanding what the Church teaches. You see, its not about earning your way to heaven or impacting God’s sovereignty. Its about aligning ourselves to God’s will for us. God wants us to come to him through love, which by definition can never be forced. In the end, its not our actions that save us, its our willingness to do what God wants from us. Getting to heaven is a choice we make to love. And by the way, God made everything and if its used as He intended, its very Good. See Genesis 1. The problem comes in when man wants to use God’s gifts in way that contradicts God’s intentions. That’s the definition of sin.

 

[paul_c]

Ummmm… of course our actions have consequences. But tell me what action “work” you can do that leads to Salvation that is throughout “the entire NT” as you put it.

Again, its not that you can give anything to God, who is the source of everything. But good works are love in action and we must love to stay in the state of grace and go to heaven… Search the scriptures. You will see that this is true. I particularly like 1Corinthians 13, where St. Paul explains that love is the most important virtue. And both the great commandment: (Matthew : 34-40) and the New Commandment (John 13: 31-35) highlight this point.

I will assume your are referring to all the healings done by Jesus again. Well I pointed out to you with scripture that Jesus always referred to their faith healing them, never to their “good works”. How this does not give you pause is a wonder, yet even so it is explained by scripture.

Again, this is about understanding the context of what Jesus teaches. Faith does save you. It is by faith that we get into the state of grace and we must come to Jesus willingly. He never healed anyone against their will. They had to believe that he could do it. But don’t be confused, you can lose your salvation and ultimately be condemned to hell if you fall from grace through sin. Romans 11: 11-24 shows this as does Matthew 7: 21-23.

Those who choose not to see this will no doubt justify it by saying “well they had to do something”. And no matter how passive the “action”, they will widdle that “good works” stick down to a nub, from walking or talking all the way down to hearing or breathing for sure. Just to “be right”, while all the while **dead **wrong.

Again, Faith saves you, but Love gets you to heaven.

I’ve never stated our actions don’t have consequences. However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God. If it happens, it happens because God Willed it to be so and vice versa. To believe otherwise is again to contradict with the vast amount of scriptures that states God’s Will is always done. However, again you’ll don’t mind doing this.

Let me explain the Catholic theology concerning God’s plan and man’s Free Will. It will help you break through this seeming paradox. You see,there two truths here. God’s plan WILL be carried out and man really DOES have free will. These two truths can be carried out simultaneously without conflict because of the greatness of God. You see, he is truly omniscient and he can develop his plan taking into account his knowledge of what you will do with your free will. Let me give you a scriptural example. In genesis, God did not desire for Adam and Eve to disobey him and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. But he knew that they would and his entire plan for the world took that into account. In the same way, he gave Mary the choice to be the Mother of our Lord, knowing that she would say" I am the handmaid of the Lord, may it be done to me according to thy word." So you see, God’s plan will be completed as He desires AND man’s actions have True consequences, without one conflicting with the other

As for the non challenging question of why do “we” pray… it depends on who PR is referring to with “we”. Those who understand that it is best God’s Will be done and that God’s Will is always done and will always be done, pray just that. They pray for all that they want and desire, but pray it to be done** IF AND ONLY IF** it is in His Will, not simply because it is their own.

It seems many here pray that their own will be done instead of God’s. And if you don’t then why don’t you? Is it because of another contradiction? Do you not dare to practice before the Almighty what you preach before men? How many times have you prayed that the Lord change His Will so that it aligns with your own? Do you think every time a Believer prays, their prayer is answered? Why is that?

To be more specific about why I pray… I pray because I am commanded to do so, I pray because I fear and love God, I pray because it is an awesome opportunity to be able to speak to God, and more on topic; I pray because I want certain things to be done in my life and the lives of others.

While I do this however, I understand that prayer is a means God instituted to accomplish His Will through man, not a loophole with which man can circumvent God’s Will. This is along the same vein as Salvation and child birth as spoken of earlier. In order for certain things to happen, they must be prayed for. Does this mean that these things are done simply as a result of man’s will to pray for them? No. If they are done it is because it was God’s Will that the man prayed for them to be done and as a result the man prayed for those things.

Now, why do you’ll pray? And when you pray, do you pray in the flesh or in the Spirit? So, where does the merit lie?

Prayer is communication with God. It can be for praise, thankgiving, intercession, forgiveness or for our own desires. God knows what we want and need before we ask, but the asking is important because it demonstrates our faith. Remember, all those that were healed by Jesus were in effect praying to Him for their own needs. Our prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is Yes, some times the answer is no because what we ask for is not in the end good for us or others, and sometimes teh answer is “Later”. In mass, we actually pray for all 5 ways I discussed above.

That deafening silence you heard was my new born crying… must be even louder than I thought.

congratulations

 

[paul_c]

I have never and will never as long as I’m in this flesh, claim to have a perfect understanding of scripture. But for you, while wading in the flood of contradictions you are currently in to say I have contradictions… now that is comedy - albeit a sad one. Totally makes up for the bad I vs I jokes.

I hope these two posts have helped you to see that there are no scriptural contradictions in Catholic theology. Those contradictions you percieved were actually a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible teaches that “good works” indeed have a direct connection to Salvation. However, the “good works” don’t lead to Salvation, they are a result of Salvation.

Salvation, l v l, is when we are together with Him in heaven. Thus, we are saved when we die.

Man’s actions of the flesh are worthless in terms of attaining Salvation.You can do absolutely nothing of your own power to merit Salvation. It is God’s actions through man that has “real salvific consequences”

This is very Catholic of you to say, l v l! .

Your understanding contradicts with scripture that tells us the flesh counts for nothing, and nothing good comes from it. Yet you don’t mind…

Except for baptism, which now saves us, and removes the stain of Original Sin.

 

[Philthy]

You asked…I told you, I even included examples. You didn’t understand so I cleared up the already clear a bit more and yet you still don’t understand .

The truth? I asked how you resolve contradictory doctrinal opinions among believers, you proposed a situation where a person can unilaterally decide by “eliminating” the contradictions, but, of course that simply begs the question of who is correct in their elimination of a contradictory question. This is the third time you have claimed to answer this question without having doing so. If you think you did answer it, cut and paste the answer.

Understanding the Word is not about “confronting contradictory opinions from others”, it is first and foremost about receiving and being taught by the Spirit leading to the ability to confront and dissect “seeming contradictions” in the Word Itself.

It is both, and you are avoiding the issue. Let me restate it: 2 people of equal maturity attempt to reconcile a verse to their doctrinal beliefs. Each does so according to their best understanding of Scripture with the belief that they are being led by the Spirit with the actual result being contradictory opinions of what the truth is. You have proposed nothing to resolve this situation - you just keep proposing that studying the word and believing you’re being led by the Spirit will resolve it. This thread proves otherwise, as does the history of “Bible believers”.

Those who are more immature in Biblical understanding or blind to it all together due to lack of the Spirit are more often fine with following a doctrine that teaches Biblical contradictions (the Bible through faulty understanding contradicting itself).

The assessment of an “immature Biblical understand” is a subjective assessment that is quite irrelevant. People of equal maturity and equal conviction of being Spirit led reach contradictory opinions - that’s the situation “bible believers” most often find themselves. You have again offered no resolution to the problem. There should be an objective standard by which to judge the full meaning of Scripture and not only the interpretations of others but of ourselves. You have yet to address this fact despite your claims to have “answered”.

If your Biblical understanding (however you came to that understanding) of a topic leads to a contradiction with another scripture, then your understanding of the particular topic is incorrect.

Of course, but that isn’t the issue. You have just articulated that Scripture is inerrant while we are fallible. That does nothing to deal with recognizing whether two contradictory positions are both incorrect or if one of them is true. Do you truly not understand the issue or, if you do, will you ever address it?

Good to see you back!

con’d…

 

[Philthy]

I v I:

If your Biblical understanding (however you came to that understanding) of a topic leads to a contradiction with another scripture, then your understanding of the particular topic is incorrect.You have exhibited many of these, and have been shown in scripture how you contradict and yet you don’t care to see it.

Your link leads to a post with PRMerger, not with anything I said and as such does nothing to support your contention. I reject your claim that I have produced a single contradiction to Scripture, and you have done nothing to demonstrate otherwise. All you have done is revealed your logical errors that you use to judge others.
One contradiction that existed in your mind (ie erroneous logic) was the one I pointed out: you believe our free will “contradicts” God’s omnipotence and sovereignty. Your stated reason for that belief was that God doesn’t “need” anything from us. I pointed out that while you are correct that God doesnt need anything from us, that in His omnipotence and sovereignty he has willed that our free will choices can have eternal consequences. You have not once addressed that very simple rebuttal to the foundational premise of your argument. Your inability to cogently address this issue was clearly revealed by the challenge PRMerger put to you: If our actions have no consequences, then why do you pray?? You have not addressed this simply question either.

The Bible teaches that “good works” indeed have a direct connection to Salvation. However, the “good works” don’t lead to Salvation, they are a result of Salvation.

Failure to do the good works God prepares for us jeopardizes our salvation. Perhaps it is more palatable for you to have it expressed that way. Failure to do them jeopardizes our salvation, rather than to say that doing them “saves” us, but in the end it is the same thing.
I don’t disagree that “good works…are a result of salvation” BTW. It is the truth, but it is not the whole truth.

Not gently, nor harshly, just wrongly. You’ll trust in yourselves in one sentence and say it’s all God in the next. Contradiction.

My opinion is that you are currently incapable of understanding the distinctions we are making. You will never find a single post where I or any other Catholic claims to trust in ourselves. You make it up because your misunderstandings lead you to conclude that. Until you deal with what we actually say rather than what you distort of what we say then you will remain in the dark.

Man’s actions of the flesh are worthless in terms of attaining Salvation.

First off, I never ever said that salvation was “attained” through a work. I specifically said that we enter into salvation by grace through faith, apart from works. I called this aspect of salvation our initial salvation. Works play a role in maintaining our salvation, not attaining it. Do you understand the distinction I just made?? Y or N please.
Secondly, I dont know exactly what you mean by “actions of the flesh”, but if you mean actions we do with our flesh apart from the Spirit, then I agree.

You can do absolutely nothing of your own power to merit Salvation.

Agreed! Your pointing this out means you haven’t been really listening or have but are yet incapable of understanding what I have been saying.

It is God’s actions through man that has “real salvific consequences”.

Again, too vague. Apart from God there is nothing we can do with respect to salvation. That does not, however, that there is nothing we can do to reject God’s offer of salvation, or that we can choose to do things that cause us to lose the salvation He has given us.

Your understanding contradicts with scripture that tells us the flesh counts for nothing, and nothing good comes from it. Yet you don’t mind…

I’m ready to take on whatever you wish to debate. It is clear you have not been really listening. Flesh alone counts for nothing - agreed. I never said it did. You keep returning to this straw man argument…let’s stick to the actual debate and not fabricated ones.
I never claimed we do anything apart from God, I never claimed our flesh alone accomplishes salvation. You have simply concluded I believe those things based on your errors in logic. Let’s stick to what I actually say - and I am extraordinarily careful with the words I choose - rather than with the conclusions you believe flow from what I have said.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

"philthy a few pages ago...:

Again, you have not answered the question, you have merely begged it. Let me restate the problem clearly and then I will repose the question for you.
Here, is the problem: you and I disagree on exactly what “the Word of God tells us” with respect to this issue of God’s Sovereignty and it’s relationship to our free will. Your position (and mine!) is also at odds with other Protestant denominations - all of which are led by people who use the “word of God” as their ultimate source for understanding the faith. In summary the problem is: based upon our understanding of the word of God, we disagree. Using the word of God and not being able to agree on what, exactly it says is not a good thing - agreed? I can only presume you agree since your actions of attempting to convince me of the truth can only be understood as such. And now, here is the question - again - which you haven’t quite answered, but which we would like answered:

What, EXACTLY, do you do to resolve such situations other than ignore others as being less inspired (in their understanding of Scripture) than yourself?*

I actually did tell you exactly what I do: “delete all seeming contradictions the Bible contains.” I even gave examples so you would know what I meant: "If the Bible says God never fails and God always does as He pleases, then this must hold true throughout all of scripture. If you have made a conclusion that God fails or His will is not done at any point, then you know you have come to an errant conclusion and you must deduce another conclusion that makes both the text you are reviewing and in this case, God’s characteristics true. "

If there are two apposing doctrines (referring to scripture that is sufficiently supportable), the one without contradiction is correct because the Bible does not contradict itself.

I re-posted this exchange so that what has actually transpired can be easily seen by all. What I would like you to point out is where, in any of this, do seek anything but your own, personal, fallible determination of whether “scripture…is sufficiently supportable” to determine the “correct” doctrine???
All I see is you claiming that you can reach the conclusion of who is right on your own. You haven’t addressed how to deal with the person who has done exactly what you have done and come to an opposing opinion. This is why I specifically said in the question, What, EXACTLY, do you do to resolve such situations other than ignore others as being less inspired (in their understanding of Scripture) than yourself?
Did you miss that or does one of us have a plank in our eye? I don’t see anything in your “explanation” that addresses the fact that you simply ignore the other person and accept your personal judgment as being superior to theirs. But I’m sure you’ll point it out to me - from the actual answer you gave - how the other person’s beliefs, convictions, arguments and claims that he is being spirit led in his pursuit of truth* in arriving at his conclusion* is taken into account. Because without it, it appears you me that you simply believe what you believe - you “lean on your own understanding” in direct contradiction to Scripture (Prov 3:5-6).

Best of luck with that…

 

[Philthy]

Ummmm… of course our actions have consequences. But tell me what action “work” you can do that leads to Salvation that is throughout “the entire NT” as you put it.

Before I answer, I want to be sure the full context of my comments can be seen…

Catholics maintain that good works play a role in salvation
IvI maintains that they do not play a role in salvation. He based this opinion on the fact that God is omnipotent and sovereign and that He doesn’t “need” man’s cooperation.
It was gently pointed out - well, I’ll admit maybe not so gently - that while God doesn’t “need” anything from us, He has nonetheless in his omnipotence and sovereignty willed that man’s actions have real, salvific consequences. The entire NT speaks of our actions and their consequence

Please note how you distorted my actual comments (ie that works “play a role in” and “have real…consequences” in our salvation) into saying that they “lead to” salvation - that is you inserting your idea of what I believe rather than addressing what I actually said, and you do it all the time…:banghead:

**So… what action can we do to PLAY A ROLE IN salvation? Simple:
All acts of self sacrificial love of God and neighbor by grace through faith do. **
These acts include both actions we take and actions we avoid.
In the category of actions we take, we have already pointed out Matt 25: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, visiting the imprisoned, etc. When we do these things -by grace through faith - we inherit the kingdom prepared for us by our Father. Failing to do them- choosing not to do these things, despite grace and faith - brings condemnation. You brushed this very straightforward section of Scripture aside as being “complicated”. I don’t find it complicated at all. Perhaps it is trying to fit it into your theology and getting others to agree with you is what is complicated.
In John 15 in the parable of the vine Christ gives the same message of the importance of “remaining” in his love by producing fruit.
Matt 6 tells us that forgiving others is a condition for being forgiven by God (6:14) Certainly being forgiven by God is a salvific event, and our forgiving others - by grace through faith - contributes to it.
I could go on an on…
The actions we are to avoid (ie sins) are spoken of so extensively in the NT that we couldn’t even begin to cover them all. My favorites are Paul’s repeated warnings to the saved believers in 1 Cor 6:9, Ephesians 5:5 and Gal 5:19. The reason for this is because Paul no longer engages in the “saved” discussions because he is talking to saved believers. He warns them about not “inheriting the kingdom of God”, and he no longer uses his “faith apart from works” language at all. Rather the focus is on avoiding sin because certain sinful actions have salvific consequences: Gal 5:19-24
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy,* drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Interesting change of focus huh? No longer is he talking about “getting saved” “by grace through faith apart from works” and you wanna know why?? They have already been saved by grace through faith and now it’s time to focus on living life as a Christian (ongoing salvation) and finishing that life in a state of grace so that when this life is over they can inherit the kingdom of God (final salvation).
One other relatively clear action/salvific consequence verse comes from Gal 5:4
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Here Paul warns the saved believers that were being misled by the judaizers into being circumcised for justification. Notice Paul doesnt merely say it’s a waste of time - he says it causes them to “fall from grace”. Falling from grace is very bad - that is what Adam and Eve did. I trust you consider being “separated from Christ” a salvific consequence??
The NT is jam packed with warnings to Christians about the potentially eternal consequences of their actions (love of neighbor), lack of action and sin.

What say you?

 

[Philthy]

I will assume your are referring to all the healings done by Jesus again. Well I pointed out to you with scripture that Jesus always referred to their faith healing them, never to their “good works”. How this does not give you pause is a wonder, yet even so it is explained by scripture.

It does not give me pause because I understand just how important faith is. I never denied the importance of faith - so why would it give me pause? It is you who embraces faith alone and denies the significance of our actions despite what Christ and every NT author tells you to the contrary. I accept the necessity of grace, faith and love, so why would I need to pause?

 

[Philthy]

I’ve never stated our actions don’t have consequences. However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God.If it happens, it happens because God Willed it to be so and vice versa.

 

[Philthy]

"You are all shook up"

 

[Philthy]

Now you tell me:

Am I a prophet for knowing God’s will ( ie by predicting what God would will me to put in that last post)?

OR…

Has God, as part of His Sovereign Will, given us some freedom during our earthly lives and that what we do, we do and whether we do it or not is our choice and it has consequences and yet - in a sense - remains entirely His Will?

I submit to you that it is the latter and that your preoccupation with understanding what it means that God is sovereign has lead you to some off-base conclusions regarding the importance of the choices we make and the actions we take - or don’t take.
It’s either that or your gonna have to start callin’ me prophet…

 

[PRmerger]

Ummmm… of course our actions have consequences. But tell me what action “work” you can do that leads to Salvation that is throughout “the entire NT” as you put it.

There is no work we can do that earns us salvation.

This paradigm is clearly manifested in our belief in baptizing infants. Clearly, the infant has done NO WORK to merit salvation, right?

Does your church baptize infants? That is, do you show that even a baby who has done not a single “work” can be lead to Salvation?

 

[PRmerger]

While I do this however, I understand that prayer is a means God instituted to accomplish His Will through man, not a loophole with which man can circumvent God’s Will.

Exactly! This is, again, quite Catholic of you to say.

You are quite eloquently limning the Dignity of Causality articulated by Pascal that I alluded to earlier.

We pray because we have been given the gift of actually causing a change in events.

Just like we plant seeds because we have been given the gift of actually causing us to have wheat and food to eat.

If we don’t plant, we don’t get the wheat. This is *material *work.
If we don’t pray for , we don’t get . This is spiritual work.

And just like planting seeds does not diminish the sovereignty of God, so, too does our Dignity of Causality not diminish the sovereignty of God.

 

[PRmerger]

As for the non challenging question of why do “we” pray… it depends on who PR is referring to with “we”. Those who understand that it is best God’s Will be done and that God’s Will is always done and will always be done, pray just that. They pray for all that they want and desire, but pray it to be done** IF AND ONLY IF** it is in His Will, not simply because it is their own.

Huh? What’s the point of that? :whacky:

You pray only if you know it may cause change in events.

NB: let it be understood that we are talking about prayer of petition here. In l v l’s paradigm it is a worthless endeavor.

Prayer of praise, worship, thanksgiving–of course we must offer these unceasingly.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Got to be more witty…

You asked me my rubric and I told you, I even included examples. You didn’t understand so I cleared up the already clear a bit more and yet you still don’t understand .

Understanding the Word is not about “confronting contradictory opinions from others”, it is first and foremost about receiving and being taught by the Spirit leading to the ability to confront and dissect “seeming contradictions” in the Word Itself. Those who are more immature in Biblical understanding or blind to it all together due to lack of the Spirit are more often fine with following a doctrine that teaches Biblical contradictions (the Bible through faulty understanding contradicting itself). If your Biblical understanding (however you came to that understanding) of a topic leads to a contradiction with another scripture, then your understanding of the particular topic is incorrect. You’ll have exhibited many of these, and have been shown in scripture how you contradict and yet you don’t care to see it.

The Bible teaches that “good works” indeed have a direct connection to Salvation. However, the “good works” don’t lead to Salvation, they are a result of Salvation.

No, I understand that Truth by searching scripture teachings that speak on the topic of Salvation. Context is key.

Not gently, nor harshly, just wrongly. You’ll trust in yourselves in one sentence and say it’s all God in the next. Contradiction. Man’s actions of the flesh are worthless in terms of attaining Salvation. You can do absolutely nothing of your own power to merit Salvation. It is God’s actions through man that has “real salvific consequences”. Your understanding contradicts with scripture that tells us the flesh counts for nothing, and nothing good comes from it. Yet you don’t mind…

Let me correct you, Oh Great One.

The Catholic understanding of Scripture contradicts 1 v 1’s understanding of Scripture.

Also, who ever said “we trust in ourselves” or that we use our own power to merit salvation?

If you think that that is what we mean by “Faith and Good Works”, then you are mistaken. Read the name of the doctrine “FAITH and Good Works”.

Why in the world do people objecting to “Salvation by Faith and Good Works” utterly FAIL to take into account the Faith part?

I just don’t get it.

And I see in your religion, you put “Bible Believing”. It should be “1-v-1’s-interpretation-of-the-Bible believing”.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Ummmm… of course our actions have consequences. But tell me what action “work” you can do that leads to Salvation that is throughout “the entire NT” as you put it.

Faith and works dude. FAITH AND WORKS! Jesus always commands. Do this. Do that. Love. Love. Love. As Saint Paul put it, “A Faith that worketh through love.” More specifically “agape” (love/charity)

I will assume your are referring to all the healings done by Jesus again. Well I pointed out to you with scripture that Jesus always referred to their faith healing them, never to their “good works”. How this does not give you pause is a wonder, yet even so it is explained by scripture.

Ok, and what did they DO for Christ to say, “Your faith has saved you”. They did something.

Those who choose not to see this will no doubt justify it by saying “well they had to do something”. And no matter how passive the “action”, they will widdle that “good works” stick down to a nub, from walking or talking all the way down to hearing or breathing for sure. Just to “be right”, while all the while **dead **wrong.

Those who choose to see this are ridiculously desperate to disprove and not listen to Catholics.

And you are putting words in our mouths just to be right, even while dead wrong. So, stop trying to be witty. It is not working out for you.

I’ve never stated our actions don’t have consequences. However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God. If it happens, it happens because God Willed it to be so and vice versa. To believe otherwise is again to contradict with the vast amount of scriptures that states God’s Will is always done. However, again you’ll don’t mind doing this.

Just like you don’t mind being unreasonably arrogant?

What we believe contradicts your interpretation of Scripture. This is what is true, not your remarks about how anti-Bible Catholics are.

And to say what you say means you have authority over any interpretation of Scripture, right or wrong.

It seems many here pray that their own will be done instead of God’s. And if you don’t then why don’t you? Is it because of another contradiction? Do you not dare to practice before the Almighty what you preach before men? How many times have you prayed that the Lord change His Will so that it aligns with your own? Do you think every time a Believer prays, their prayer is answered? Why is that?

“It seems that many here…” What? Who is even talking about their personal prayer life besides in Spirituality or Prayer Intentions sections.

Do you know what Catholics do every day at every time around the world including now? They pray the Our Father (or the Lord’s Prayer, depending on the preference of name).

To be more specific about why I pray… I pray because I am commanded to do so, I pray because I fear and love God, I pray because it is an awesome opportunity to be able to speak to God, and more on topic; I pray because I want certain things to be done in my life and the lives of others.

Ok, this is by far your most charitable post yet… But why do you assume we don’t do the same thing?

I have never and will never as long as I’m in this flesh, claim to have a perfect understanding of scripture. But for you, while wading in the flood of contradictions you are currently in to say I have contradictions… now that is comedy - albeit a sad one. Totally makes up for the bad I vs I jokes.

Ok, do you have any idea how contradictory this post is (as well as hypocritical)?

Let me shed light here. You will never claim to have a perfect understanding of Scripture. Ok… This is because you don’t have a perfect understanding, right? Therefore, to claim you do have a perfect understanding of Scripture would be a lie and you know. Right? Ok…

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, let me shed some more light. You don’t have a perfect understanding. This amounts to having an imperect understanding to the limitations of the human being, and that is not necessarily your fault (maybe Adam’s?), right? Ok.

Here is where you contradict yourself though. If you have an imperfect understanding of the Bible, that means that you could be wrong about some or all things you think you understand. That equates to not knowing whether what we tell you is true or “dead wrong” (as you put it).

Not only that, you do assume you have a perfect understanding of Scripture if you tell us we “are dead wrong because Scripture says such and such.”

It is only your interpretation of Scripture which we contradict and not Scripture itself. So, take your ego out of this and have a rational debate, even if reluctantly.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

1 v 1,

The fact that you say we are in a flood of contradictions does not make it true. The fact that you say we are "dead wrong does not make it true.

Others on here have been more than generous enough to give not only adequate responses, but also reasonable arguments to reach the conclusion that Catholic theology is right.

What do you do? You dismiss those as “wrong” without giving reasons why it is flawed. Then you proceed to be vulgar and say things like “you won’t mind doint that” (in reference to dismissing God’s Will). Also, you incessantly assume your position of Catholic perspective is correct. Why is that, especially after many have corrected you?

Your posts are littered with accusations. For example, “You will trust in yourselves”, or “you don’t mind doing this”, or “this doesn’t give you pause to wonder” (as if you actually know what we do or don’t do)… “You this”, “You that”.

I am just wondering why you do those things. Do you take pleasure in thinking we do those things, thereby increasing your hatred for Catholics and Catholicism?