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activeCatholic
Guest
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:8-9
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Eph 2:8-9
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Reuben_J
Guest
Perhaps as an Orthodox, you are an exception rather than the rule for you to say that. What I gather here Orthodox are quite clear on things which are not the same to them. Normally they do not say, “We are saying the same thing except that we do not use that word”.
God bless.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Only the Eucharist fits that bill. The other sacraments are direct, powerful means of grace given by Our Lord. Marriage, confession, etc. are not forms of Christ but grace-laden lifelines to save us from hell. That’s my understanding.
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sixofseven
Guest
WORKS OF THE LAW = MOSAIC LAW - The Jewish Law.
No, you will not be saved or justified by works of the law because there is a new law, Christ’s law. Paul is preaching to the Gentiles and the Pagans - he is saying to them that the Jews can no longer boast about having a special relationship with God because they followed the Mosaic law and were circumcised. Christ replaced circumcision, the entering into Covenant, with Baptism. That is why no flesh shall be justified, because as Christ said, the flesh availeth nothing (Jn 6), it is the spirit that gives life and we become in the spirit through baptism - just as Titus says - by washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
Yes we love Christ, how do we show him that? Didn’t Christ say we have to DO the will of the Father?
If bad deeds/works/thoughts send us to hell, surely good deeds/works/thoughts shall assist our salvation - for doesn’t Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling?
Romans 2 “For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”
When we experience the refining fire, won’t there be works that remain, that aren’t burnt up?
Check out this article, We Can Work It Out by Tim Staples
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Jimmy_B
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Mayita30
Guest
James 2:14-26
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6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
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If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
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and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
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So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
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Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
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You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
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Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
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Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
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You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
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Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
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See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
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For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
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If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
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and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
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So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
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Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
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You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
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Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
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Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
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You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
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Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
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See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
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For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
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activeCatholic
Guest
But that doers not say Salvation is by Works and Faith. It says that Faith will produce works
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Dokimas
Guest
IMO, James answered the question: faith without works is dead. True faith produces godly works.
Works without corresponding faith often produces pride, IMO.
The sacraments are not works, IMO. Works are what we do for others as a hand of Jesus. Again, IMO, that’s the context of James’ ‘faith without works is dead’.
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Dokimas
Guest
And verse 10 follows by saying, 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
IMO, faith precedes good works. Good works is our loving response to our Savior.
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Mayita30
Guest
Not all people who have faith produce Good works…
As you have seen in the chuch, bad priests have faith too but they dont have good works…
so what the catholic church is saying is that aside from FAITH which is very IMPORTANT , it should also be demosntrated with good works.
having faith,praying a lot but doing bad things to others is being like a hypocrite. That is dead faith because you are not showing Jesus’ teachings to your neighbor.
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Mayita30
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I have to agree that works without faith produces pride that’s why the church emphasizes on FAITH with works
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activeCatholic
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Yes, but Scriptures no where says works save one. Being saved, truly saved, produces the good works but they never will save one as Paul says “Not by works lest any man should boast”
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Mayita30
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The Church has never emphasized that work is greater than Faith. They have always taught that Faith is important and we should demosntrate our faith through works (acts of charity, being good to your neighbor) (WALK THE TALK!!!)
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Here is a quote from the article I posted earlier from fallible blogma:
"Many protestants who insist on believing in “faith alone” seem to do so by saying that faith is all that is required, but of course works naturally flow from that. But I think this is a bit confusing and I’ll tell you why.
First, their definition of faith here includes a natural outpouring of good works. They say that if it doesn’t include good works, then it’s not a real, justifying faith. In other words, what they are saying is that it is necessary for their faith to include good works in order to be justified. So it’s the same exact thing as saying that the requirements for justification (i.e. what is necessary) is both faith and works.
“But no, no, no,” they protest, “faith is all that is necessary…but good works are a consequence of it.”
“But what if someone’s faith doesn’t result in good works?” I ask.
“Well then they aren’t justified,” they say.
“So good works are required and necessary then?” I ask.
“Uhm, yes. No, wait,” they stumble, “if there are no works, then it’s not real faith,” they continue.
So we can see how the confusion comes about. I believe they are saying that their definition of a justifying faith includes good works. Because as soon as good works are taken away, they no longer believe that faith is justifying. Perhaps they no longer believe it is faith? I’m not sure. Either way, for the protestant in this conversation it seems that good works are required and necessary to at least turn faith into a justifying faith. Therefore, good works are required for justification. You can’t separate it."
I agree wholeheartedly.
The link:
fallibleblogma.com/index.php/catholics-on-faith-and-works-clarified/
I should note that the article also says that (most) Protestants’ view of the “faith alone” thing is in fact consistent with the Catholic view of justification.
"Many protestants who insist on believing in “faith alone” seem to do so by saying that faith is all that is required, but of course works naturally flow from that. But I think this is a bit confusing and I’ll tell you why.
First, their definition of faith here includes a natural outpouring of good works. They say that if it doesn’t include good works, then it’s not a real, justifying faith. In other words, what they are saying is that it is necessary for their faith to include good works in order to be justified. So it’s the same exact thing as saying that the requirements for justification (i.e. what is necessary) is both faith and works.
“But no, no, no,” they protest, “faith is all that is necessary…but good works are a consequence of it.”
“But what if someone’s faith doesn’t result in good works?” I ask.
“Well then they aren’t justified,” they say.
“So good works are required and necessary then?” I ask.
“Uhm, yes. No, wait,” they stumble, “if there are no works, then it’s not real faith,” they continue.
So we can see how the confusion comes about. I believe they are saying that their definition of a justifying faith includes good works. Because as soon as good works are taken away, they no longer believe that faith is justifying. Perhaps they no longer believe it is faith? I’m not sure. Either way, for the protestant in this conversation it seems that good works are required and necessary to at least turn faith into a justifying faith. Therefore, good works are required for justification. You can’t separate it."
I agree wholeheartedly.
The link:
fallibleblogma.com/index.php/catholics-on-faith-and-works-clarified/
I should note that the article also says that (most) Protestants’ view of the “faith alone” thing is in fact consistent with the Catholic view of justification.
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activeChristian
Guest
Well you should tell the OP because the implication is Faith + Works.
Formerly activeCatholic
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activeChristian
Guest
I would answer your friend by saying works are never a requirement of Salvation. Works are a result of Faith through Christ but not necessary for Salvation.
Formerly activeCatholic
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Mayita30
Guest
I think we are going in circles. Faith with works=faith+works
The church teaches that Faith is necessary for our salvation and it should be demonstrated by works…
IN the end…as what Mark_anthony posted…Protestant and Catholics have the same idea on this matter…I don’t know why this is a big issue…we both agree that Faith SAVES!
TRUE FAITH= FAITH WITH WORKS
For PRotestants: TRUE faith (which shows good works) saves!!
For Catholics: FAITH with good works saves!
Its really the same!
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Marc_Anthony
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And THIS is the type of thinking NOT compatible with the Catholic view of justification.
If you believe justifying faith must have works as a result of the faith, we’re in agreement. But if you believe you can be faithful without works then I’ll have to disagree.
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activeChristian
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It’s not the same look at your last example:
For Catholics they must have Faith with Works to save. For us it is Faith alone that saves
Formerly activeCatholic
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Mayita30
Guest
OKKK so what you are saying that priests and pastors who say they have FAITH but abuse children are saved??? Just because they are proclaiming to have faith that means they are saved right?thats what you believe in
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