Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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Loboto-Me said:
Matthew 19

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
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And the statement is true. If you would enter into life by the commandments, you must keep the commandments. Perfectly. Later in that passage (v. 21ff.), Jesus demonstrates to the rich young ruler that he hasn’t kept any of the commandments, despite the fact that he thinks he has.
Also in John 14 Jesus says “If you love me keep my commandments”
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We cannot love, unless He has first loved us. We can only be obedient to Christ’s commandments if we are already justified in Christ.
6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.
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Again, a true statement. Those who obey the law will be justified through the law. But no one obeys the law.
Notice that God will judge us by the goodness of our works
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Outside of Christ, He will. This isn’t good news.
 
=Mayita30;6621822]Good works aren’t necessary for TRUE FAITH that’s what you say, so basically what you are saying is following Christ’s commandements is not necessary for TRUE FAITH… I am really not getting your point of view
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True faith does not come as a result of my works. Faith is a gift of Grace. Good works are, on the other hand, a necessary result of true faith.
For me TRUE faith is believing in Christ and following his commandments(meaing good works) is evidence of true faith
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The insert in red is mine.

Are we really saying something different?
Jon
 
JonNC said:
True faith does not come as a result of my works. Faith is a gift of Grace. Good works are, on the other hand, a necessary result of true faith.

The insert in red is mine.

Are we really saying something different?
Jon
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I don’t think you are saying much different than we (Catholics) are unless I’m interpreting you wrongly (where’s the Pope when I need him? 😛 😉 )

Actually the one who’s got it wrong is Active Christian, who thinks that faith alone will save him.
 
Loboto-Me said:
Matthew 19

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Also in John 14 Jesus says “If you love me keep my commandments”

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

And everyone knows “Faith without works is dead” (James again)

Romans 2

6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Notice that God will judge us by the goodness of our works

There are so many other passages that support the Catholic view, yet some people like to twist it all around saying that we have it all wrong. People who have this idea that they just can’t release that we are trying to save ourselves by our works when we are most certainly not!
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That does not say at all that works equal Salvation, it is some Catholics who are twisting them to make them say that works equal Salvation, there is nothing one can do to save oneself Salvation is through Christ alone
 
Oye! Where in the world did you get the notion that Catholics can buy heaven??? Open your eyes and read carefully what we Catholics actually believe.
 
Loboto-Me said:
I don’t think you are saying much different than we (Catholics) are unless I’m interpreting you wrongly (where’s the Pope when I need him? 😛 😉 )

Actually the one who’s got it wrong is Active Christian, who thinks that faith alone will save him.
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Faith in Christ alone does save, you may do works all you want and still end in Hell. The works that a Christian produces are a by product of Faith in Christ. In no way will works save anyone as Paul says “not by works lest any should boast”
 
Loboto-Me said:
Oye! Where in the world did you get the notion that Catholics can buy heaven??? Open your eyes and read carefully what we Catholics actually believe.
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From this thread, I was a catholic before
 
activeChristian said:
From this thread, I was a catholic before
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Yes, I saw that you started out with the name Active Catholic, and in the blink of an eye your faith changed over, after what 11 whole posts? Either you don’t know your catechism or you were fickle, or both?

If you were truly catholic, you certainly aren’t proving your catholic education much since you’re coming in here with these crazy claims that we buy our salvation.

Although maybe you’re confused because Catholics** work out their salvation in fear** and trembling? You see, we don’t leave anything out of our faith… we take scripture dead serious.
 
Loboto-Me said:
Yes, I saw that you started out with the name Active Catholic, and in the blink of an eye your faith changed over, after what 11 whole posts? Either you don’t know your catechism or you were fickle, or both?

If you were truly catholic, you certainly aren’t proving your catholic education much since you’re coming in here with these crazy claims that we buy our salvation.

Although maybe you’re confused because Catholics** work out their salvation in fear** and trembling? You see, we don’t leave anything out of our faith… we take scripture dead serious.
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Well I was not a cradle Catholic, I was a convert. It was longer than just 11 post here that I desired to be Christian again. You leave much out, you yourself have twisted Scripture to try to get it to say Faith and Works save. Works will never save anyone only Christ does
 
Catholics DO NOT believe that works ALONE can save! But guess what, FAITH ALONE will not save you either. You could have all the faith in the world but if you do nothing with it, it will not save you.

Works are part of the process. God will judge us by what we have done, have we served Him, have we loved Him, have we obeyed Him - we must have the faith first, no one is denying that, but that faith MUST produce!!! This is what works are.

Faith without works is dead faith, dead faith will not save you.
 
sixofseven said:
Catholics DO NOT believe that works ALONE can save! But guess what, FAITH ALONE will not save you either. You could have all the faith in the world but if you do nothing with it, it will not save you.

Works are part of the process. God will judge us by what we have done, have we served Him, have we loved Him, have we obeyed Him - we must have the faith first, no one is denying that, but that faith MUST produce!!! This is what works are.

Faith without works is dead faith, dead faith will not save you.
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Works are nothing but filthy rags, only Christ saves. No matter how many works you do you will not be saved, only by Faith in Christ alone will you be saved.
 
WE BELIEVE THE SAME THING. True faith involves works. If we die with true faith but before we can do good works (say you just converted and this happens) we believe you still reach Heaven (eventually, anyway) because with true faith you eventually intended to do good works.

This is EXACTLY the same thing Protestants believe, merely said in a different way. I think it’s less confusing, Protestants don’t. Whatever. It doesn’t matter. IT’S THE SAME THING.

We’re trying to prove how very faithful we are to our faiths without considering the possibility that we really DO believe the same thing and that’s really not so bad.
 
activeChristian said:
Works are nothing but filthy rags, only Christ saves. No matter how many works you do you will not be saved, only by Faith in Christ alone will you be saved.
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Isaiah 64:5-7

5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins.

It is because of SIN unconfessed and unrepented that any good works are deemed ‘filthy rags’.

Catholics strive to do good, not to get into Heaven, but to please God, to obey Him, to follow the commandment of Christ, otherwise how can we call ourselves Christian?
 
sixofseven said:
Isaiah 64:5-7

5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins.

It is because of SIN unconfessed and unrepeated that any good works are deemed ‘filthy rags’.

Catholics strive to do good, not to get into Heaven, but to please God, to obey Him, to follow the commandment of Christ, otherwise how can we call ourselves Christian?
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We call ourselves Christian because we follow Christ not because we do works, there is nothing anyone can do to please God.
 
You’re right, I agree…but if the faith is justifying, works naturally flow from it, correct?

Thus, faith and works. Because if the works don’t flow from it, then it’s not true, justifying faith.

WE AGREE.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
You’re right, I agree…but if the faith is justifying, works naturally flow from it, correct?

Thus, faith and works. Because if the works don’t flow from it, then it’s not true, justifying faith.

WE AGREE.
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It is Christ who does the work through us. Works are a by product and not necessary for Salvation so in reality most Catholics will not agree with that because most Catholics believe you must have Faith plus. Works do not justify us before God, Christ does that. Works only justify us before man but are not necessary for our Salvation.

The thief on the Cross was justified by Faith in Christ, not works. Just as we are so while it seems on the surface we agree pealing back the layers we fundamentally have different understanding of works in relation to Salvation
 
Nobody said works let us merit Heaven. But we understand that to have true faith we need works. Protestants understand it too, Catholics just seperate the two.
 
…And as I said, it can be assumed that the good thief would be willing to perform good works. That is good enough.
 
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