Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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TriuneUnity said:
This verse has far too much contained within it to be a bare reference to salvation through works. Firstly, if it is a reference to that, then Paul contradicts himself within the very same letter. In chapter 3:8-9: “Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.” In 2:12 Paul means “salvation” in terms of progressively coming to experience all of the aspects and blessings of salvation. The Philippians’ continued obedience is an inherent part of “working out” their salvation in this sense. But as v. 13 demonstrates, these works are the result of God’s work within his people. Even the desire (“to will”) to do what is good comes from God; but he also works in the believer to generate actual choices of the good, so that the desires result in actions. While God’s justice is a cause for sober living (“fear and trembling”), it is not as though Paul wants the Philippians to be anxious that they can never be good enough to merit God’s favor.
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Great post!
 
How about this, then:

Future Protestants are very, very often made up of bad Catholics. And many bad Catholics are bad because they have Protestant beliefs.

I still firmly hold that we believe the same thing but are too stubborn to admit it.
 
I agree that omitting verse 13, the very next line, takes away some context and clarification. Jesus is working through us and we are operating by faith. It is not merit-making.
TriuneUnity said:
This verse has far too much contained within it to be a bare reference to salvation through works. Firstly, if it is a reference to that, then Paul contradicts himself within the very same letter. In chapter 3:8-9: “Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.” In 2:12 Paul means “salvation” in terms of progressively coming to experience all of the aspects and blessings of salvation. The Philippians’ continued obedience is an inherent part of “working out” their salvation in this sense. But as v. 13 demonstrates, these works are the result of God’s work within his people. Even the desire (“to will”) to do what is good comes from God; but he also works in the believer to generate actual choices of the good, so that the desires result in actions. While God’s justice is a cause for sober living (“fear and trembling”), it is not as though Paul wants the Philippians to be anxious that they can never be good enough to merit God’s favor.
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You realize that Catholics do not, and never have, believed that you can merit justification?

This one is not debateable. I’m sure of it.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
How about this, then:

Future Protestants are very, very often made up of bad Catholics. And many bad Catholics are bad because they have Protestant beliefs.

I still firmly hold that we believe the same thing but are too stubborn to admit it.
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Future Protestants are those Catholics who learn that Catholicism isn’t everything in the world and wrong in many areas.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
You realize that Catholics do not, and never have, believed that you can merit justification?

This one is not debateable. I’m sure of it.
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I’m sorry, Marc, but Rome does teach this.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Council of Trent.
 
From a protestant point of view…but you have to concede that from a Catholic point of view, obviously those are bad Catholics!
 
TriuneUnity said:
I’m sorry, Marc, but Rome does teach this.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Council of Trent.
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But you cannot earn salvation without Jesus. That says that thanks to Jesus Christ dying for our sins it is possible by asking forgiveness of our sins and by doing good BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH to increase our grace, eternal life, and attainment of eternal life. In other words, if we have faith our works will be good. Which is also the Protestant belief.

I concede that my statement was incomplete. I reword my statement like this:

Good works do not merit salvation. Faith AND good works do. By this, I mean that if you have true, justifying faith good works must naturally follow or it is not justifying faith.

Thus, faith and good works. Or, faith alone where good works must follow. Another way of saying faith and works.

The two are incomplete alone. Even Protestants concede that for faith to be justifying good works should naturally follow.
 
Some Protestants might say that fallen-away Protestants who became Catholics didn’t know their bibles, didn’t understand theology, and were too stubborn and caught up in merit-based salvation, sold out, and are lost sheep. It’s silly to label people this way. People make decisions often based on sound logic and their best understanding of scripture, theology, history, and right and wrong. We go where we feel the Holy Spirit has led us. May God bless you as a Catholic, Marc Anthony. By the way, we’re studying you in my sixth grade class right now. You didn’t fare so well at Actium! 😛
Marc_Anthony said:
How about this, then:

Future Protestants are very, very often made up of bad Catholics. And many bad Catholics are bad because they have Protestant beliefs.

I still firmly hold that we believe the same thing but are too stubborn to admit it.
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activeChristian said:
Here I thought Catholics were big on not judging
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My goodness, I mean this in the nicest possible way but you do not understand Catholicism at all…so that means that we should not call out people who are doing the wrong things? I’m sorry, but doing things condemned by the Catholic Church is heresy, whether you like being judged or not.

EDIT: Plus, I make no statements on anybody’s eternal soul…I have no idea what’s happening in the depths of your heart, if you repent properly you can still then be justified.
 
Eeeeeeee…

The sacraments are concrete signs that contain Jesus Christ, His life…whether He is absolving sin or is the means one is confirmed in the Holy Spirit…a deeper conviction/confirming and strengthening…(Jesus said He would give us His Spirit, so the sacraments proceed from the Person of Jesus Christ), Jesus is the sacramental bond uniting the husband and wife who marry each other, not the priest who is witness and bestows the sacrament,…what else…Holy Orders…well, a bishop ordains the priest who then has the power to minister the sacraments and teach the Word…

Newly ordained priests are instructed that when they go into parishes, they will always meet lay people who have more faith than they.

It is grace that saves us…faith is a grace given us by the Lord, freely given…

In the context that I am sharing here, works are our response to living out the Lord Jesus and the directives of the Gospel…it is our response in Christ, through Christ in the sacraments, that we then live out His Word…spiritual and corporal works of mercy…

If you are in the Holy Spirit…works are not like little jobs we mark off…We add them all up and then we think with these works that we do will save us. Not at all.

Rather ours is a spiritual walk of conversion, a way of life living in the Lord…we follow the Holy Spirit…we all live in different circumstances, but we all should bear the same fruit of Jesus Christ…if we do, then we are reflecting His life, His teachings, and carrying of His cross.

No different than Protestants who say they live by faith, but still do Christian works…

I think this business of the accusing Catholics of believing in their works to save themselves is not only a false accusation, but a sham. The parish works of a Catholic church are in many ways the same as those in a Protestant church.

Protestants just don’t accept the priesthood and their duty in administrating the sacraments, as well as most of the sacraments. And they do not teach the Oral Tradition through the Apostles, but rather individual interpretation of the Word of God or through Spirit-filled Biblical devotions.

So we have the concrete sacraments, visible, viable and the concrete understanding of the Word of God found in doctrine based on the Apostles drawn from the Oral Tradition of Christ. So I would call that concrete.

What that means is that you don’t waste time with a bunch of arguing…the world needs Jesus and we have to be His sign…especially now…the tv news today was pretty bad.

And we have various layers of undestanding Scripture. You can find that out in the catechism because I am going to bed.
 
activeChristian said:
Here I thought Catholics were big on not judging
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The only Judgemental people I have know are PRotestants who say all Muslims,Jews, Budhist, Hindus are all GOing to Hell just because they don’t believe in Christ!!!

Catholics don’t judge because we belive that God is the only one who can judge!
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I concede that my statement was incomplete. I reword my statement like this:

Good works do not merit salvation. Faith AND good works do. By this, I mean that if you have true, justifying faith good works must naturally follow or it is not justifying faith.
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The problem is this statement. Good works never merit Salvation at all, that’s why I was insisting we don’t agree. We are not saying the same thing but two different things that might sound similar.

Your saying Faith and Works merit salvation, we say no Faith Alone merits Salvation (sola fide)
 
Mayita30 said:
The only Judgemental people I have know are PRotestants who say all Muslims,Jews, Budhist, Hindus are all GOing to Hell just because they don’t believe in Christ!!!
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Uhm, that would be the writings of the Apostles that say that.
 
Mayita30 said:
The only Judgemental people I have know are PRotestants who say all Muslims,Jews, Budhist, Hindus are all GOing to Hell just because they don’t believe in Christ!!!

Catholics don’t judge because we belive that God is the only one who can judge!
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OHhh I forget…Protestants also say that Catholics are going to hell! MY bad!
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Beyond being insulting as heck, this isn’t necessarily true one iota. Look at how many Catholics you have, an overwhelming majority by the Church’s own reckoning, of people who use birth control in the Church. Look at how many in enormous numbers divorce and remarry without marriage tribunals and annulments. Look at how many don’t go to confession, how many are actively gay and still attend (priests included!), how many want women priests and actively lobby for it, and how many vote pro-choice. Catholics helped in the ascendancy of Obama. These people are all still Catholic, not Protestant.

Also, I have spoken and continue to meet people not only at my church but here in CAF who are very, very well-educated and catechized Catholics who just plain don’t believe in Catholic dogma and many items theologically who went Protestant. Just because a person leaves Catholicism and came to a different conclusion than yourself doesn’t necessarily equal a bozo. Don’t equal poor catechesis and ignorance with Protestantism. Different conclusions, that’s all.
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Hello gurneyhalleck1,

I feel your frustrations… both of you…

I’ve always been told that “two wrongs never make a right.”

Catholicism isn’t a democracy. I believe that "Cafeteria Catholics”, or those who want God on their terms and not on God’s terms, are doing a lot of harm to Christ’s Church.
It isn’t that they don’t know better, they do. It’s a general decline in morality and a self-centeredness today that cause people to put themselves and their own desires above everything else and then try to rationalize their sin away…

You can’t rationalize sin in away…

People break secular laws all the time too… That’s why we have police, lawyers, courts, judges, juries and prisons… Should we get rid of the state laws because people break them? …Of course not, we all need bounderies.

That’s the tricky thing about life, we are all born with free-will and that includes the free-will to sin.

Unfortunately, sin hurts everybody.

However, we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions and for every sin there is a consequence.

We are all going to have to meet our maker one day and I don’t think that all the rationalizing in the world is going to help some people.

Thank you for your post.

God bless you!
 
I disagree.

You say that if faith is justifying good works naturally follow.

I say if faith is justifying good works must naturally follow.

I say, since good works must naturally follow from faith faith and works are necessary for justification.

You say that since good works come from faith good works are only “components” of it and not necessary in themselves…however, you also say that justifying faith has good works result from it. So if no good works result from it, it’s not justifying faith. So faith needs works. You just make faith the “blanket” that covers works as a natural effect of faith.

We agree.
 
Mayita30 said:
The only Judgemental people I have know are PRotestants who say all Muslims,Jews, Budhist, Hindus are all GOing to Hell just because they don’t believe in Christ!!
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They are, Christianity is exclusive. Christ said no man comes to the Father except through Him!
Mayita30 said:
Catholics don’t judge because we believe that God is the only one who can judge!
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Catholics judge just like any human.
 
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