Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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I’m sorry, I should provide a link, shouldn’t I?

fallibleblogma.com/index.php/but-the-greatest-of-these-is/

A quote from Warner:

"I think part of the problem is that too many people have an incorrect sense of the word “work” when used in this context. They automatically connect it to a sense of working to earn something, but this does them a great disservice. We are not earning anything. We are accepting a gift. We are cooperating with God’s grace. A work is simply something that we do, and in this case, it is something that God himself has asked us to do to attain our salvation. So if you have an issue with it, feel free to take it up with the big guy himself. But scripture, the Tradition of the Church, and Jesus himself are all pretty clear on it.

I sincerely believe that most non-Catholic Christians agree with the gist of this, and understand that what we do, our work, does obviously play a role in our salvation – that’s just reasonable, scriptural, and apostolically Traditional. Unfortunately, it seems that many of them are so set in their own tradition of protesting the Catholic Church on this matter that they will never even consider admitting that they believe it. I hope that with further dialogue we can all work past that and agree on the Truth and be that much more closely unified as Christians.

Overall, I think one of the greatest verses in the bible can reveal something very important to us regarding this issue. “So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is…faith”? No. Of course not, that is not what the Bible says."
 
"Protestants often misunderstand the Catholic teaching on merit, thinking that Catholics believe that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008)."
 
Wow. That is only the opposite of what Trent said. What Trent said was:

“[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I’m sorry, I should provide a link, shouldn’t I?

fallibleblogma.com/index.php/but-the-greatest-of-these-is/

A quote from Warner:

"I think part of the problem is that too many people have an incorrect sense of the word “work” when used in this context. They automatically connect it to a sense of working to earn something, but this does them a great disservice. We are not earning anything. We are accepting a gift. We are cooperating with God’s grace. A work is simply something that we do, and in this case, it is something that God himself has asked us to do to attain our salvation. So if you have an issue with it, feel free to take it up with the big guy himself. But scripture, the Tradition of the Church, and Jesus himself are all pretty clear on it.
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That is where we go down different paths. We do not corporate, God’s gives us Faith and comes and changes us which produce different fruit. This happens because we have believed on Christ in Faith alone. The bolded part we will always disagree with.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Wow. That is only the opposite of what Trent said. What Trent said was:

“[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
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This is talking about initial justification. For Trent, justification is a process, whereby once initially justified, the grace of initial justification can be lost through mortal sin. It can then be restored only through the Sacrament of Penance. Since it’s a process, our merits, works, the merits of the saints, etc. all add to our ongoing justification, which is not final until we die, go through purgatory to cleanse attachments to venial sin, and enter heaven.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Wow. That is only the opposite of what Trent said. What Trent said was:

“[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6).
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CANON XXXII.-**If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
**

Right here, black and white from Trent. Catholics must believe their good works merit Salvation
 
That is referring to salvation. That and justification, which was our original discussion, are two different things.

I know I’ve done this a lot, but I’m afraid I’ll have to go back to Warner to explain this one:

fallibleblogma.com/index.php/justification-vs-sanctification-vs-salvation/

A quote:

Salvation

In biblical language the deliverance from straitened circumstances or oppression by some evil to a state of freedom and security. As sin is the greatest evil, salvation is mainly liberation from sin and its consequences. This can be deliverance by way of preservation, or by offering the means for being delivered, or by removing the oppressive evil or difficulty, or by rewarding the effort spent in cooperating with grace in order to be delivered. All four aspects of salvation are found in Scriptures and are taught by the Church.

Sanctification

Being made holy. The first sanctification takes place at baptism, by which the love of God is infused by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5). Newly baptized persons are holy because the Holy Trinity begins to dwell in their souls and they are pleasing to God. The second sanctification is a lifelong process in which a person already in the state of grace grows in the possession of grace and in likeness to God by faithfully corresponding with the divine inspirations. The third sanctification takes place when a person enters heaven and becomes totally and irrevocably united with God in the beatific vision.

Justification

The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent, “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524). On the negative side, justification is a true removal of sin, and not merely having one’s sins ignored or no longer held against the sinner by God. On the positive side it is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven.
 
As Trent also said, and which is also in black and white but whcih you are for some reason ignoring, grace trumps faith and works. It’s a gift.

Aren’t all articles from this site officially sanctioned by the Church? Because if so what I posted was officially sanctioned by the Church. I’m pretty sure of it.
 
In biblical language the deliverance from straitened circumstances or oppression by some evil to a state of freedom and security. As sin is the greatest evil, salvation is mainly liberation from sin and its consequences. This can be deliverance by way of preservation, or by offering the means for being delivered, or by removing the oppressive evil or difficulty, or by rewarding the effort spent in cooperating with grace in order to be delivered. All four aspects of salvation are found in Scriptures and are taught by the Church.
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There it is again. We can not do anything to save ourselves only Christ can do that. Salvation is a gift, not a reward
 
…I might add, what Trent said does not contradict, because of this:

The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008)."
 
activeChristian said:
That is where we go down different paths. We do not corporate, God’s gives us Faith and comes and changes us which produce different fruit. This happens because we have believed on Christ in Faith alone. The bolded part we will always disagree with.
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**God gave us faith! He sent Jesus ,his only son but we must NOURISHED that faith,cultivate it!!! We must WORK to keep that FAITH ALIVE!!!Our faith should reflect Christ’s teachings, living out his commandments and spreading the faith!!!

Do you agree with this??**
 
I’m going to be honest here. I think you’re seeing what you want to see right now. We’re giving you good evidence that what you’re saying are the Church’s teachings are not the Church’s teachings but you have so convinced yourself that you’re right that you’re ignoring evidence that contradicts you and focusing on evidence that supports your position.

I’m sorry if you think this is insulting but I really believe that and since I think this is true it will be impossible to convince you of anything. So I’m out (not that I won’t check back). God bless.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
As Trent also said, and which is also in black and white but which you are for some reason ignoring, grace trumps faith and works. It’s a gift.

Aren’t all articles from this site officially sanctioned by the Church? Because if so what I posted was officially sanctioned by the Church. I’m pretty sure of it.
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That’s nice but Trent still says you must work, which your all ignoring. There is no way around that Trent says (and Catholics have to believe) that your works merit salvation too
 
Mayita30 said:
**God gave us faith! He sent Jesus ,his only son but we must NOURISHED that faith,cultivate it!!! We must WORK to keep that FAITH ALIVE!!!Our faith should reflect Christ’s teachings, living out his commandments and spreading the faith!!!

Do you agree with this??**
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We need to pray, Study the Bible but that does not save us.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
I’m going to be honest here. I think you’re seeing what you want to see right now. We’re giving you good evidence that what you’re saying are the Church’s teachings are not the Church’s teachings but you have so convinced yourself that you’re right that you’re ignoring evidence that contradicts you and focusing on evidence that supports your position.

I’m sorry if you think this is insulting but I really believe that and since I think this is true it will be impossible to convince you of anything. So I’m out (not that I won’t check back). God bless.
Click to expand...
I believe you want to ignore the plain fact that Catholics must believe they work for thier Salvation along with Faith
 
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