Good Works, or Faith Alone?

[TriuneUnity]

I’m going to be honest here. I think you’re seeing what you want to see right now. We’re giving you good evidence that what you’re saying are the Church’s teachings are not the Church’s teachings but you have so convinced yourself that you’re right that you’re ignoring evidence that contradicts you and focusing on evidence that supports your position.

I’m sorry if you think this is insulting but I really believe that and since I think this is true it will be impossible to convince you of anything. So I’m out (not that I won’t check back). God bless.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justification received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

 

[Mayita30]

No, nothing we can do is good enough.

OK so better not Cooperate with Jesus if thats what you are saying

 

[activeChristian]

OK so better not Cooperate with Jesus if that’s what you are saying

We don’t. Christ calls us and we answer, there is nothing that we can do to earn that gift. Christ paid the price completely all we must do is accept

 

[Jimmy_B]

Yet you must earn your justification as a Catholic

Do you the meanig of “justifiction”? Do you disagree with the Catechism quotes that I’ve post here?

 

[activeChristian]

Do you the meaning of “justification”? Do you disagree with the Catechism quotes that I’ve post here?

Yes. Our Justification comes from Christ alone

 

[Mayita30]

We don’t. Christ calls us and we answer, there is nothing that we can do to earn that gift. Christ paid the price completely all we must do is accept

Ok so NO cooperation on your part. Jesus alone saves you. Christ paid the price completely and all we must do is accept?? How do you accept Christ teachings?? By living it, right? By demonstrating it…

 

[Jimmy_B]

Yes. Our Justification comes from Christ alone

So does ours…

Catechism of the Ctaholic Church

977 Our Lord died the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that “we too might walk in newness of life.”

**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

**654 **The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God’s grace, “so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace. It brings about filial adoption so that men become Christ’s brethren, as Jesus himself called his disciples after his Resurrection: “Go and tell my brethren.” We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith and work. This is about Christian’s life. To live out the faith one has to lives as Christian. What it entails to live as one is called work. We are to live the life of the Gospel.

Basically all Christians agree on this point.

We are required to have faith. But without work that faith is a dead faith. WE cannot ignore that for it is mentioned clearly in the Bible. Jesus too mentions that we have to do to the least of his brethrens in order to be worthy of the Kingdom of his Father. Paul also mentions we have to work out our salvation.

The thief on the cross, if he had to live out his faith, he would no doubt have to do good work, that is, to live the Christian living as is required of him. It is a blessing that he died without have to live his new life as a believer.

I am often asked hypothetically by children in our children ministry – “in that case we can do as we like but just before we die then we ask to be Baptized”, - so that unbeliever can have the best of the two worlds. I said, “OK, you can be like that thief but remember the Lord can take you back anytime and you may not have the opportunity to repent”.

I think the Lutherans in this thread describe faith and work quite beautifully and I have no problem in accepting that definition.

 

[Lapey]

Yes. Our Justification comes from Christ alone

Maybe you can just say it one more time…I’ll believe you next time!!!

 

[Izdaari]

I could go on and on about this subject, but I think I’ll spare you all, and just say I agree with all the Lutherans who’ve posted in this thread. :aok:

Even though my church is Pentecostal, on this subject I’m 100% Lutheran. :tiphat:

 

[Reuben_J]

I could go on and on about this subject, but I think I’ll spare you all, and just say I agree with all the Lutherans who’ve posted in this thread. :aok:

Even though my church is Pentecostal, on this subject I’m 100% Lutheran. :tiphat:

Or Roman Catholicism.

 

[Lapey]

I could go on and on about this subject, but I think I’ll spare you all, and just say I agree with all the Lutherans who’ve posted in this thread. :aok:

Even though my church is Pentecostal, on this subject I’m 100% Lutheran. :tiphat:

You know Iz, that is the sad part. We are so close on many issues but we tend to keep pounding our heads against a wall to prove we are different. It just gets old.

Can’t we look past our differences and work on what we agree? All of us are agreeing with faith; and when one has faith that change happens and this change produces fruit, i.e. works. If there is no change there is no Christian, the faith is dead! Are the fruit borne and produced by Christ? YES!!! Everything is from Christ, but still neccesary. Matt 25 tells us that not only other men see our works, “what you do for the least of my brother you do to me.”

Activewhatever, if you want to keep saying the same line over and over again you can, its your right. But why not try something bold, listen, you may figure out that we are quite close in our beliefs and doctrine.

 

[Izdaari]

You know Iz, that is the sad part. We are so close on many issues but we tend to keep pounding our heads against a wall to prove we are different. It just gets old.

Can’t we look past our differences and work on what we agree? All of us are agreeing with faith; and when one has faith that change happens and this change produces fruit, i.e. works. If there is no change there is no Christian, the faith is dead! Are the fruit borne and produced by Christ? YES!!! Everything is from Christ, but still neccesary. Matt 25 tells us that not only other men see our works, “what you do for the least of my brother you do to me.”

Actually, I do think we’re fairly close to agreement, and some of the differences may be just semantics. Yes, we agree it’s faith that saves us, and works are necessary too, though I want to be clear that in my understanding works are “the fruits and signs of Justification, but not a cause of the increase thereof”.

Has anyone satisfactorily answered what TriuneUnity posted?

*CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justification received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema. *

… because this makes it look as if we’re not that close at all.

 

[Lapey]

Actually, I do think we’re fairly close to agreement, and some of the differences may be just semantics. Yes, we agree it’s faith that saves us, and works are necessary too, though I want to be clear that in my understanding works are “the fruits and signs of Justification, but not a cause of the increase thereof”.

Has anyone satisfactorily answered what TriuneUnity posted?

*CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justification received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema. *

… because this makes it look as if we’re not that close at all.

If you read the first one listed, the one canon of justification that sets the tone of the entire document, we are pretty close and I disagree with your statement to the contrary. Just as with scripture, the document has to be read and understood in its entirety, not one part against the other.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Canon 1 states that one cannot be justified by his own works, or the law, or without grace. If you see anything different in any of the others you read them incorrectly.

I will do more research on these canons and comment on the specific ones sited.

Also, please do not confuse these “canons” with Canon Law. These canons were written to refute heresies, Canon Law is written to lead the faithful; the faithful of the Latin Rite Catholic Church.

 

[TriuneUnity]

If you read the first one listed, the one canon of justification that sets the tone of the entire document, we are pretty close and I disagree with your statement to the contrary. Just as with scripture, the document has to be read and understood in its entirety, not one part against the other.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Canon 1 states that one cannot be justified by his own works, or the law, or without grace. If you see anything different in any of the others you read them incorrectly.

I will do more research on these canons and comment on the specific ones sited.

Also, please do not confuse these “canons” with Canon Law. These canons were written to refute heresies, Canon Law is written to lead the faithful; the faithful of the Latin Rite Catholic Church.

Lapey, that’s fine, but Protestants recognize that Catholics believe grace is necessary. That was never in dispute. Where we disagree is on the sufficiency of grace, not whether it is necessary. Rome believes that the human will must cooperate with grace in justification otherwise it is not effective. Since we are monergists, we believe grace in and of itself, outside the cooperation of the human will, is sufficient to justify. We do cooperate in our sanctification, that is, in personal holiness and obedience to God’s commandments. But that is not justification.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Douay-Rheims

James 2
**14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: **
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

This shows us that it is possible to have faith without works… but it’s dead faith. Dead faith is still faith but it’s useless.

This section in the NIV

**18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” **
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

In the KJ

18Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works.” Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

French (Bible du Semeur)

18 Mais quelqu’un dira:
—L’un a la foi, l’autre les actes(“http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#ffr-BDS-30320b”)].**
—Eh bien! Montre-moi ta foi sans les actes, et je te montrerai ma foi par mes actes.

Notice that what the someone says is in quotations, then what James replies becomes part of the passage again… Show me your faith without deeds, and I’ll show you mine by what I do. This is shown in all 3 examples. James says that he has faith and shows them by his works/actions.

Yes, Catholics ARE justified by works and NOT ONLY faith… by BOTH, yet to Catholics, works do justify us. We co-operate with our faith in Christ through and with our works.

Douay-Rheim

**Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? **
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead

 

[Jimmy_B]

Loboto-Me:
No comment…just wanted to say, I like your name…lobotomy…lol… that’s a good one.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justification received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Okay, this was posted as a response to me saying that I think people were ignoring evidence that contradicted them (I’m sorry, but I still think that). But it doesn’t make sense as a response for two reasons:

1. Earlier in the thread I responded directly to this quote. I did not ignore it.
2. I then posted other official teachings of the Church that explained that quote more fully and put it into context. It is these I think were ignored.

 

[activeChristian]

Ok so NO cooperation on your part. Jesus alone saves you. Christ paid the price completely and all we must do is accept?? How do you accept Christ teachings?? By living it, right? By demonstrating it…

38 “Repent,” Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38

 

[activeChristian]

So does ours…

Catechism of the Ctaholic Church

977 Our Lord died the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that “we too might walk in newness of life.”

**1992 **Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

**654 **The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God’s grace, “so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace. It brings about filial adoption so that men become Christ’s brethren, as Jesus himself called his disciples after his Resurrection: “Go and tell my brethren.” We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection

While that seems the case it is not, Trent has spoken and says one must have faith and works